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Alyosha
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Ferret Warlord wrote:
I take it you had no luck skipping the monster in the pit? Sheesh, this run is 10 years old, and my only tools were frame advancing and an input display. I'm honestly surprised our run has held up so well this whole time.
none. I tried many locations and many angles. I was only able to get a clip in the stair type sections of the dungeon, but not very far into the wall. Well, you are very good at frame advance : )
Alyosha
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Thanks for clarifying that. The code that causes the final boss fight to end is only called in that particular room, so if anything strange is happening with the dragon it is a different cause altogether. I experimented a bit, the only things I have deduced is that the moving platforms don't move until you land on them. You can also land on the neck of the currently active dragon head. However you can't transform on the dragon, so you can't go through the fight without landing on them sadly to test. I did notice that it is slgihtly faster to transform after getting the purple crystal instead of before, because it kills all your momentum after you pick it up. Implementing this saved 5 frames. Still looking into that falling through platforms glitch.
Alyosha
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FatRatKnight wrote:
Submitted my Gauntlet TAS. The moment you can knock one more off your list is fast approaching! I may consider another TAS from this list. I'll think about it.
Great! I hope you find a game that suits your taste. With that and fist of the north star, the list is already down to 30! Although I do expect progress to slow down.
Post subject: Re: Small Improvement
Alyosha
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Dacicus wrote:
Actually, it is possible to save some time (maybe a second or two) by improving the jump as Kuros enters the third wizard guild. He needs some leftward momentum as he's entering the door, and he'll make it to the top of the steps in one jump.
I implemented this, it saves about 30 frames total.
scubed wrote:
It is possible to jump right below the top of a platform to fall through it. There was a movie demonstrating it. Unfortunately, we weren't able to get it to work consistently. That should allow easier access to the lower cave area.
Not sure what this is, I'll have to keep looking into it. I also figured out what room 1 is, it is the top of the tower. The special code in $A87B is written to keep Kuros from jumping to the left to reach the second level knights guild, so nothing special happening there.
Alyosha
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feos wrote:
Can you tell why it's not worth it?
It's just my opinion that whatever we put in a 'technical showcase' should meet the highest standards of what is authentically possible, but certainly the community can collectively decide where they want to draw that line.
Alyosha
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^thanks for that Dimon! Maybe I should try learning how to do that encoding stuff, is there a 'how to' guide anywhere?
Alyosha
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True wrote:
keep in mind there are more human inputs than controller inputs.
I like that : ) But I'm not really sure what you are proposing. Would you go with something even more general? @feos: 'prowess' may have been poor word choice there. 'Innovation' would probably be better. But anyway, in your example a bot-generated run on wii would be interesting, but I had something different in mind for technical innovation, more along the lines of what the games and hardware can do. I'll give another example, the fancy new n64 emulator CEN64 (or any ongoing emulator developments) if completed would be in its own right a technical achievement that would allow much more accurate TASes for that system to be generated, but as an example of what can be done with a game or hardware, it wouldn't provide anything new by itself. I hope this is a clear example. As for Adelikat's question of what is a showcase and not moon, in my mind it is like the complement of the question mark box designation. The top tier examples that can be considered cutting edge technically (even if their entertainment value is minimal.) The benefit is that it sets these runs apart in an easily accessible and searchable place, as opposed to being in the sea of ~900 moons TASes. For how they are picked, I think Grincevent said it pretty well. The 'beating the game' requirement might also help clarifying as well.
Alyosha
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Samsara wrote:
I've got a bit much on my plate at the moment, but sometime in the future I'd like to take a look at Star Ocean.
Cool! I'll make note of that. I don't think there is any hurry or anything, but I'm happy more of the list is claimed then I originally thought. Only 2 runs left in the 2XX series, anyone interested in Lagoon? I'll probably do Combatribes ... if I can find the motivation. If anyone wants to team up on that one too I am willing!
Alyosha
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A little update on this one. I tried figuring out why the boss dies in Dacicus' glitch, here is what I have so far. A subroutine at $A87B is being called which has some function in keeping track of fireballs. At the point the glitch occurs, fireball 1 (y value at $033D) has y-value 79 (#$4F) This makes a check fail comparing to #$50. At this point is where things get strange:
  $B2A8:BD 3C 03  LDA $033C,X @ $033D = #$4F                   A:04 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2AB:C9 50     CMP #$50                                     A:4F X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2AD:B0 AD     BCS $B25C                                    A:4F X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2AF:AD 0C 04  LDA $040C = #$00                             A:4F X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2B2:D0 A8     BNE $B25C                                    A:00 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2B4:A9 01     LDA #$01                                     A:00 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2B6:8D 0C 04  STA $040C = #$00                             A:01 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2B9:A9 C0     LDA #$C0                                     A:01 X:01 Y:91 S:FD 
  $B2BB:99 A4 03  STA $03A4,Y @ $0435 = #$02                   A:C0 X:01 Y:91 S:FD
Register Y currently has a value related to Kuros' position on the screen. For no discernible reason, the code proceeds to use this register to store #$C0. The corresponding RAM address is $0435. Now, $0435 is the location of Mikail's current attack pattern. It ranges from 0-5. The game performs a check later on to check what pattern he is in, if it can't find a match (which it can't since it is set to #$C0) the fight ends. This explains why the fight ends, but not the graphical glitches. I'm not sure of the possibilities to do thing with this glitch outside this particular fight. EDIT: with some more analysis, it seems that block of code is specific to Mikail's room. The game checks a RAM address ($006B) that carries the current room designation, in this case it is 5. When it is 5 is the only time this block of code is called. As a side note, the game does another special check if the current room is 1. I so far have not found any room with such a designation, although it might be worth looking into further.
Alyosha
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z1mb0bw4y wrote:
I'm picking up Metal Storm. Improved 8 frames on password input. Hopefully more to come lol.
Awesome! I admit I was a bit intimidated to try that one, I hope you keep finding improvements as easy as that one.
Alyosha
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@feos: My thought there was that since these demonstrations are meant to showcase technical prowess, they should meet the highest standards of verifiability (use real hardware.) This isn't to say that console replays alone are the tech demos, but whatever technical process is being demonstrated should have a console verified component along with it, at least in my mind.
Alyosha
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Well since I did say I strongly support the idea, I will at least take a shot this. Overview: I think the overview section is fine. Technical Requirements: Demonstrations should: -execute a novel concept on a gaming device beyond that which is attainable through controller inputs alone. OR -Use controller inputs to perform a novel action aside from beating (or simply crashing) the game. In addition, demonstrations must be considered a significant new contribution to existing material, and be demonstrated on reference hardware. Notes: I think the section as originally written uses existing examples to shape the requirements a bit too much, so I personally prefer something broader like this. TASing itself originally could have been considered a technical demonstration, yet it wouldn't fit the original definition. Entertainment Requirements: I think the first and third bullets are fine, with the second bullet unneccesary Speed Requirements: Maybe someone else can add useful input here, I'm not sure what to make of it. Goal Choice / Obsoletion Looks good to me Documentation -All parts of the Demonstration should be sufficiently documented such that it can be reproduced substantially from the submitted material. Notes: I add in a documentation section as this tier is supposed to bring novel concepts that add to the knowledge base, and as such should be thoroughly documented
Alyosha
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Odongdong wrote:
I was working on SNES Prince of Persia, actually.
Oh nice! Are you still working on it? If not I would like to see any work you have, I was thinking of working on that one fairly soon.
Alyosha
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Well I guess the RNG problem was solved by HHS, at least in part thanks to some technological advancement, nice! Anyone have any other noteworthy problems to add? Given that a mega man TAS has recently been rejected, I wonder also about the 'no magnet beam' run. Is there any plausible way such a thing might be done?
Alyosha
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^Nice work on those by the way. I looked at Rad Racer myself briefly but couldn't get much out of it. Looking forward to seeing gauntlet in the submissions. Won't be too long before we are under 30 runs left!
Alyosha
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^ I'm not sure what you mean by that. Flashback is published hurray! I noticed FatRatKnight's WIP too, surprisingly large improvement. Unfortunately I think all the really easy ones are done. I tried looking at kabuki Quantum Fighter and so far can't save even 1 frame. Maybe I will try Wizards and warriors 3 next.
Alyosha
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It could be because the file is the converted version of the original run (fcm->fm2) that it is coming up as FDS. Same with the Jackie Chan run. As for the blue robot fight, yeah I was surprised when I saw that worked as well (completely by accident.) You might also notice that I only actually hit one of the robots. The fight takes the same amount of time for the robots to actually die, the improvement comes from the fact that they die further away from me, so I can start moving earlier, saving about 5 frames.
Alyosha
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Oh, what a great idea! As someone who doesn't find TASes generally interesting to watch, but is fascinated by the more clever and technical things that can be accomplished, I strongly support this idea. I would say the 'technical requirements' section as written now is maybe over specific, but I think its a good start.
Alyosha
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Mothrayas wrote:
A few years ago I tried to make an arcade SF2:TWW playaround run, using glitches like handcuffs and all the other things Guile can do, invisible Dhalsim, player vs player fights, etc., although I never got far with it. A good playaround/glitchfest would probably be able to obsolete both SNES runs.
I have a question related to this, and preferred game version in general. How is the preferred version/port of a game decided? Is there a list? For example NES Double Dragon is also on this list, but there are surely plenty of other ports of that game, so should I do NES double dragon or the Genesis Version (which also has a published run) or something else?
Alyosha
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jlun2 wrote:
Hey, I'm not sure how you would check quickly, but with the introduction of vault, several TASes that were submitted from way back but were rejected were accepted and published. So if you want more ideas, those could work too.
Good point, I didn't consider that in thinking up this project. I think I have more then enough to keep me busy though. If I ever make any substantial progress in this project, surely those street fighter runs will be saved for last, entertainment is not my strong suit.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/22688727279303428 Found a neat new trick (not sure exactly why it works, intentional or not) but if you hit a boss on the last possible frame before you die as they deal you a killing blow (where you die while still having HP left) then they will die too, regardless of how much HP they have remaining. Only useful for bosses that slump over and die instead of blow up. EDIT: complete run saves about 25 seconds. Not sure how much can be saved additional.
Alyosha
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So I did a bit of testing to find out why the boss takes so much longer to kill in kyman's run. Here is how killing a boss works. after the last hit, a timer at $0392 is reset to zero. Then it increases by 1 each frame until it hits 128. At 128 the boss explodes. After this happens and the sprites leave the screen is where things change. In the original run (and in the mini-boss) the timer does not reset, it counts up to 255, at which point play is resumed. But in Kyman's current WIP, the timer resets to 0 and has to go all the way back up to 255. So it's not really a frame rule per say, we just need to figure out why the timer resets in some cases but not others. I also noticed that kyman gets 50000 points for beating the boss, where the original run only get 10000. EDIT: seems like both things are connected to the critical hit head shot. When I beat the boss with it, it slows down, without it, speeds up. Critical hit gives 50000 points, normal hits, 10000. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/22672731366586841 WIP up to stage 5. Pretty easy with TASeditor.
Alyosha
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your resulting file only needs to have 1 number for each result, which won't result in a file bigger then 16 MB And if you are only interested in 1-ups anyway you can just store those. Hmmmm not really sure what else to do with that pattern though, maybe it resets somewhere in there for some reason?
Alyosha
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The dragon fight takes the same amount of time, I just happen to have a different power up. The second and third dragons were the same as Baxter though. This game is quite simple compared to most other platformers and sidescrollers. There are very few tricks that actually speed you up at all. Let's see 3-1. I played that level the exact same as Baxter, so not sure what you see as different, was it something specific? vvv done!
Alyosha
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What is your current script that you used to get the data you have so far? There are 'only' 2^24 ~16.7 million options to check. Even if the script only does 5 per second that is only a month of computing time, quick compared to the ~3 decades it would take if you had to check the whole 2^32 RNG