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Alyosha
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Hurray its done! I'm not sure I deserve to be co-author for this, all i did was work out a few tricks and the technical stuff about V9, but I'm really happy to have helped in the creation of this run. Seeing that platform work out just right sure was nice though! I'm also happy this run is such a big improvement over the (technically invalid) V9. I do like that this site tries its best to be close to the original consoles and strives for verifiablility, so having a more technically valid run of such a classic game is pretty important I say. Yes Vote!
Alyosha
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^ well my understanding was that warpless was deemed more interesting. But a lot of those runs were done years ago with bad roms and emulators, so maybe now there is room for it? Personally I'm not all that interested in warps, but if someone wants to modify this TAS into a warps one maybe I could help along the way. It's basically just level 1,8,9,10 I also have a temp processing but it might not be ready for a while so thanks ahead of time for that Spikestuff. VVV oops, I always forget about that bug, when I make submissions. Can an editor please change it to NES? EDIT: thank you!
Alyosha
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This is a very impressive TAS! Glad you had the will to restart after the desync and new tricks being found.
Alyosha
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Nice! Will be waiting to see this on the workbench.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/27511624942686207 finally made it to the end! Currently 2048 frames ahead. Level 10 needs some work still and I still need to work on the last boss a bit, but this is pretty close to final. If anyone has any ideas for entertaining stuff to see at the end of the game there are about 7 seconds of down time. I could end input early by just standing next to the spaceship, but that would be too boring even for me, so I'll stick with convention as ending input on the last frame input is accepted before boarding the spaceship.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/27491139845120584 Got some good manipulation in level 8. Not sure how much better is theoretically possible, but I think its pretty close, and is almost 11 seconds ahead of Nitsuja in that level. I am now ~1550 frames ahead overall, aiming for sub 7. But I noticed at the start of level 8 Nitsuja's run desyncs in both FCEUX 2.2.2 and FCEU 98.15. I have a different ROM then the published run, so I'll need to make sure I don't have a bad ROM before continuing to level 9. Should be done fairly soon though. Also I am back ahead of the one plaer run by quite a bit now too after falling behind waiting for the scuba powerup. Now 474 frames ahead at the start of level 9. EDIT: well if I have any idea what I am doing I seem to have a proper rom, and according to stiltzkin on the previous page the ROM used in the published run is a bad dump. Aglar's run also uses this ROM but it syncs properly for whatever reason.
Alyosha
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^ Not sure, I didn't look through the code to determine how it works. Getting it working was enough for me. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/27467007092971882 Ok, level 6 couldn't be improved much because both important factors are timing based, namely the enemy to bounce on and waiting for the scuba power up. The scuba power up gets shot out every 8th shot, so there really is nothing to do to speed it up, which is unfortunate. Level 7 is now ~150 frames ahead following Aglar's route up the geysers (which was very troublesome to reproduce with both snakes.) Anyway moving on to level 8 and 905 frames ahead. Levels 8-10 are about half the movie so I'd say there a chance of finishing under 7 minutes. I also tried investigating PJ's floating above the spikes trick, but so far nothing. Even if you get off the spikes, I suspect the game doesn't think you have 'landed' yet, so you would still die from fall damage, but I can't yet get past the spikes to see.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/27438050487102963 I got a much better manipulation in level 3 and am now ~90 frames ahead of Nitsuja's attempt. I also added in the missed shortcut in level 4 which saved a few seconds. But now I am stuck in level 5 at the jump off the flying carpet. In the current run Nitsuja waits an entire cycle to jump up to complete the level, but in Aglar's one player run he is able to jump right up. In my attempts I am always 1 height unit too low to clip up onto the ledge, and am not sure how to get another unit of height. Since this will be a pretty big time saver I will try for a while to see if I can get it before moving on. EDIT: The current run is 352 frames ahead of Nitsuja's run at the start of level 5. EDIT: Got the jump. Not sure entirely how but jumping or not jumping at previous points in the level seems to impact it. 718 frames ahead at the start of level 6.
Alyosha
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After having MESHUGGAH's WIP in my hands for the entire year I finally have gotten around to starting work on it. MESHUGGAH played levels 1 and 2 and I have no plan to touch them. I have now done level 3 and saved about 50 frames with a different route involving manipulating a yellow pellet from the shooter things. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/27418817840952253 It took me a while to figure this game out but now I think I have a decent grasp of what to do, so I hope to make decent progress.
Alyosha
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wow that is some really amazing stuff! keep it up Weatherton.
Alyosha
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Ok so I got a bit better at controlling expresso through 4-4 and things are pretty close right now, diddy and expresso are currently only 40 frames apart, with diddy holding the slight lead. Still could go either way. One thing slowing down the expresso route is the setup. The vulture shoots the coconut to hit the dk barrel quite a bit later in the current run then in the nico video example. I'm not sure if this can be controlled or if its just emulation differences.
Alyosha
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Hi xy2_ , out of curiosity, why does that extra lag frame de-sync the movie so badly? Is it RNG , or is it just throwing off the rest of the inputs since there is so much lag in the game?
Alyosha
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@someog: while I'm not an FBA expert I can at least offer some info to get you a head start: 1. No, but it's not too hard to make something of the sort in LUA where you can use a csv or similar file to edit inputs in excel, here is an example:
for next_input in io.lines("input_file.csv") do

   Input_to_game=joypad.get()

   if string.sub(next_input,1,1)=="1" then 
      Input_to_game["P1 Up"]=true
         else 
      Input_to_game["P1 Up"]=false 
   end
   .
   .
   . repeat for other inputs
   .
   .
   
   joypad.set(Input_to_game)

   emu.frameadvance()

end
The inputs are P1 Up, P1 Down, P1 Left, P1 Right, P1 Fire 1, P1 Fire 2, P1 Fire 3, Coin 1, Start 1 (for more then 1 player just replace the '1' with '2' etc.) In my attempts at TASing FBA I found this approach pretty useful. You'll just need to convert the csv to an actual input file in the end, but since you are a programmer that should be easy. Here is the movie file format in case you need it: http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources/Fbarr/FBM.html 6. yes LUA is implemented and useful in FBA, here is a useful site: https://code.google.com/p/fbarr/w/list Hope this helps.
Alyosha
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small update as I try to work on 4-4 a little more in depth. I saved another 100 frames on the diddy only route, so its now pretty comfortably ahead of the expresso route. I'll still be doing both routes a few more times to make sure I arrive at the final correct answer. I don't see either route getting significantly faster at the moment, but I still have a few more ideas to try so who knows, the research continues.
Alyosha
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^ added boss technique discussion. Thanks as always for the input mklip2001.
Alyosha
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I recently found this game while browsing videos. it looked fun but in need of improvement so i thought i'd give it a try. So far I am ~800 frames ahead and up to the last level. But then i realized there is a cancelled submission (i guess due to trouble with this code red person.) I dont think i will match that submissions time with my current run , even though i'm pretty far ahead of the last wip on this thread too, so i trhink i am missing something. Is there a way to see what was in the submission text that DarkKobold edited out so i can glean some information about this lost TAS? nevermind saw the version history button : ) I hope to finish this fairly soon.
Alyosha
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Awesome! Have you thought about doing the 'second quest' as well Arc? Would be nice to have a run with the true ending.
Alyosha
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I don't mean that sound causes lag. I mean to say that when there is a lag frame, the game compensates by only doing sound operations during that frame. In fact, if the previous frame was still working on sound (001B=81) at the time the lag frame occurs, the game will do basically nothing at all during that frame. You are right though sound seems to be the least well managed element in this game. There are some fairly obvious audio glitches but unfortunately they don't seem to impact much else. EDIT: With a bit more testing I have found that lag is a bit more common then I previously thought. Still testing though.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/27193714994568875 Here it is. The platform is around 05BA I believe, so you can see which jump is triggering it. You can start the jump earlier or later to slightly adjust the timing of the spawn. Not sure what other factors there are to consider but so far this is the best I could get. Any thoughts on how much better an optimal spawn would be?
Alyosha
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Hi Arc, I tried testing this a bit and right now I am on the platform on the left side of the pit and it has just turned around at frame 23030 22870. How does this compare to your run so far? As far as I can tell, the physical spawn location of the platform is always the same , as well as its direction of travel. Jumping seems to just spawn it at different times (not entirely sure why yet)
Alyosha
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feos wrote:
If you have an idea of what condition you need, there's a common mean to use bot: that's how Rockman DelayStateClear was proven to be possible - FinalFighter foretold it before it actually happened "simply" by breaking into code.
unfortunately I do not know. Assuming the mechanism is functionally the same as delaystageclear the closest bank swap to my current NMI in the lag frame is about 2000 instructions away. Probably reachable but no idea how at the moment. The real problem is that watching the movie of the glitch, I do not see any situations where lag should show up, so I have serious doubts that it is similar to Rockman. I'm only really looking at it for thoroughness and maybe learning something new to get a new lead. The lag frame itself seems to deal almost entirely in sound. The programmers were really careful here, I couldn't find a case they might have missed so far. One possibility that is a bit similar to delaystageclear is manipulating 07ED, which tells the game what bank to use for various operations across frames, but again I have seen no glitches in it yet. (If you cheat it to 0 though you get some neat 'fireworks'.)
Alyosha
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^Oh nice glad you both are doing that one! I've been busy so haven't made it far on double dragon, but I do hope to have it done before year end. wow and my list is already updated! Thanks Samsara : )
Alyosha
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Cool thanks feos, I'll take a look at that myself in a few days when I have more time. As for me my current (and only ) line of research is looking at lag . After a lot of random messing about I finally got a lag frame to generate in normal level 1 play through . I had generated lag before but only by cheating backpack guys to appear every frame . This is the first time I've done it without cheating. So my working theory is that if a new interrupt occurs at just the right time something will go awry. I'm still in the early stages of investigating this , but so far nothing looks suspect . The game uses address 001B as a flag that tells it when a new interrupt happens if it is still working in the previous frame . It then modifies what subroutines it works on for the lag frame. Since backpack guy generation can be a long and variable process each frame, the range within each frame that the next interrupt can occur in during lag is pretty large, maybe enough for something unexpected ? But so far hardware error still seems the most likely candidate.
Alyosha
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26944546486367506 I did a test run with expresso. I ended up one second behind by level end. Originally I had tied diddy only run, but it didn't load the exit so I had to play more conservatively. I'm pretty confident the diddy only route will win in the end, because most of the time you gain with expresso you just give up again having to wait for the camera, and the setup time is longer, but its close enough to keep investigating both cases. On the up side, the whole thing only took a couple of hours to do, not bad considering the level kept the TAS from even being completed a few years ago, thanks BizHawk! EDIT: just to compare, my run takes a bit over 81 seconds, the nico TAS originally posted a few pages back does it in 98 seconds.
Alyosha
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Not sure if you got it worked out yet or not Arc, but to get a good dragon spawn it looks like you need only turn left as the body spawns but a frame before the head does. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/26787672556905349 Here is a slightly modified file of yours that does it, I believe without losing any frames, it might work in your original file too. Hope it helps. EDIT: oh yeah, also if I just walked forward instead of turning left, I died, apparently the game thought I was at the edge of the screen? I'm sure you know about this just thought I'd mention it.