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AngerFist wrote:
In my opinion, an apology is not enough. He should be stripped from his duties.
Why are you using the singular when it is plural?
AngerFist wrote:
It was done, period.
What is the "it" you speak of?
If you want us to take your suggestions regarding the topic under discussion, you should fist indicate you're even speaking about the topic under discussion and understand what happened and not be focusing on what didn't.
As for issues other than re-encode flooding by encoders and publishers, if you want to discuss them, please start a new thread.
Edit:
In general, I don't believe in getting rid of people over a single incident, unless the incident was really bad, like kidnapping, murder, etc...
As I said earlier, all the people involved have been warned. If they flood with dozens of encode releases again, there will be dealt with severely.
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HappyLee wrote:
Nach, I respect your effort in it, but to me this wasn't dealt with months ago, since me and Mars608 (and EZGames69) never got an apology, whether in public or in private
Those who wronged you should apologize to you.
HappyLee wrote:
Nach wrote:
"assigned severity of 1/10 to the scenario of a publisherpublisherssabotagingattempting to sabotage a submission".
If it were "publishers" instead of "a publisher", doesn't that make it worse?
If multiple people were intentionally involved in attempted sabotage, then yes, it's worse.
HappyLee wrote:
And I don't know why it has to be called "attempting to sabotage", because they succeeded doing it until being exposed half a year later.
Define "it". The only context I'm talking about is publication burying. Even though it looks like it was attempted to bury the publication, I see no evidence that it was actually buried in any meaningful way.
Regarding your other issues, you have every right to be upset, but this is not the thread for it. This thread is solely about the issue of flooding reencodes to TVC.
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Flameberger wrote:
Alright now I'm lost. The only thing I've been trying to say is that your assigned severity of 1/10 to the scenario of a publisher sabotaging a submission is too low of a value. I'm saying it's a more serious issue than that.
Let me fix that for you:
"assigned severity of 1/10 to the scenario of a publisherpublisherssabotagingattempting to sabotage a submission".
And if you don't like my scale fine. My point is, it's a drop in the bucket compared to losing ~850 people. If you think it's more severe than losing ~850 people, that can be your opinion, it surely isn't mine.
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Flameberger wrote:
It's not my hypothetical situation
The case of "release a lot hoping that maybe nobody notices that one encode" is a hypothetical. Maybe it can happen, maybe not. AFAIK, it's never been successfully tested on our channel.
Flameberger wrote:
"It's not a severe issue"
What actually happened, ~850 people possibly leaving forever due to what certain encoders did is a severe issue.
Insisting we should worry about a hypothetical, "makes it sound like", from your perspective, that ~850 people possibly permanently leaving "it's accepted but is something we just don't care about".
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Flameberger wrote:
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
Now we're being told that what some encoders/publishers really wanted was to release a lot hoping that maybe nobody notices that one encode. The same encode which appeared on the main site, RSS feeds, search features here, Google, YT and elsewhere, on unwatched lists, all without any sort of tampering. If that's actually what happened, on a scale of 1-10, I'd rate it a 1.
I think the idea that a publisher would intentionally try to sabotage a submission would rank worse than a 1 / 10. Even if the actual damage was minimal the issue here is whether or not there was malicious intent.
The actual damage that occurred in reality was not minimal. Possibly permanently losing ~850 users if not more?
Regarding your hypothetical situation, I'm not convinced it's even possible to sabotage a submission in that fashion. If we want to start worrying about imaginary offences, put down that voodoo doll you made, and stop putting pins in it.
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Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
That thread you are referring to seems to be talking about sudden loss of subscribers and views on the YouTube channel
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I haven't said anything different.
The problem, as I see it, is that people are talking about this new information that has surfaced, allegations that a particular staff member deliberately acted completely inappropriately, but the only responses we are getting are, essentially, "this was already dealt with months ago, the new information doesn't change anything". I don't think people are talking about the loss of subscribers to the YouTube channel. That's not the issue here.
Yes, the actual issue was dealt with months ago. The new information does not change anything.
What actually happened:
Encode flooding made ~850 people leave, and ~80,000 less viewings occurred.
Bear in mind, people left at other times too, and viewing is variable any way, so it's hard to know exactly how much was due to the amount of encodes at that time. ~40 people left earlier in the week for some unknown reason. We have no comparison against what happened in the past when just 10-20 encodes were released. Some of these people who left / did not watch may in fact just be using the site, RSS feeds, or watching via other methods anyway. Some of them may have come back later. Also with only daily totals, it's hard to know how many left and were cancelled out by new arrivals, and what the rate of that is like on other days. All in all hard to accurately measure.
On a scale of 1-10 how bad this is, assuming worst case scenario that people left and did not come back, and do not use other viewing methods, I'd rate it a 5.
Now we're being told that what some encoders/publishers really wanted was to release a lot hoping that maybe nobody notices that one encode. The same encode which appeared on the main site, RSS feeds, search features here, Google, YT and elsewhere, on unwatched lists, all without any sort of tampering. If that's actually what happened, on a scale of 1-10, I'd rate it a 1.
So yes, we dealt with a severity 5 situation, which at the time it was unclear what the motivation was, even though we had our suspicions, and now we're being told it was intended to be a severity 1 situation. Yes, that doesn't change anything.
I'm not happy about the situation, but it's the first time the people in question went wild with their encoding/publishing abilities and we already dealt with them. They've been thoroughly warned. We're not going to discount years of loyal dedicated hard work because of one bad incident where incidentally at the same time, behavior throughout the entire forum by many members was absolutely despicable.
On the bright side, it also led us to looking into making certain improvements in the site itself to prevent even unintended related issues in the future, and that's a great thing.
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Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
I wouldn't call releasing a lot of encodes in a single day by several encoders/publishers an "egregious cases of abuse" . Common sense would tell me there's no problem at all. Encoders/publishers are doing what they should be doing. The outcome as described in the staff thread was probably a surprise to all involved, and possibly even unintended by those among them who had malicious intent.
I'm really confused about this. There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding here.
That thread you are referring to seems to be talking about sudden loss of subscribers and views on the YouTube channel, and if I'm understanding correctly, that is what you are talking about ("the outcome as described in the staff thread was probably a surprise to all involved", with which I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, you are referring to the "outcome" meaning the loss of subscribers and views).
Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I haven't said anything different.
Warp wrote:
What you are talking about is confusing to me because of the lack of detail and specifics (which I might have missed). But the impression I'm getting, or at least that seems to be what you are hinting at, is that this one staff member somehow tricked the other publishers via deception, to upload-flood the YouTube channel, and the other publishers fell for it
I don't know the exact story between the different publishers. Whether it was "hey, let's bury someone", or "hey, can you help me with this", or "hey, let's break some records and release a bunch of encodes" or something else. I'm not going to try to divine what happened. All we can go on is what they tell us. I'm not going to assume it was maliciously intended by all involved unless they say so.
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Grincevent wrote:
Nach wrote:
p4wn3r wrote:
The assertion that the release of a lot of encodes in a single day was abuse is not even an inference from the evidence. The person in question admitted to it.
I don't know why you're using the singular when it is plural.
If you really don't know, you can ask people why they're using the singular. To understand them.
I haven't gotten a coherent response yet.
Grincevent wrote:
As is, I'm sorry to say that the sentence sounds a little condescending, and that doesn't help the mood in the community.
Trying to keep piling on without even having a full view of what's going on also doesn't help.
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p4wn3r wrote:
The assertion that the release of a lot of encodes in a single day was abuse is not even an inference from the evidence. The person in question admitted to it.
I don't know why you're using the singular when it is plural.
p4wn3r wrote:
If the rules of your site do not say publishers should not do this, the problem is with the rules, not with the people who find this behavior disturbing.
Which is why we changed the rules!
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Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
As much as I dislike what occurred, I'm not going to treat it like felony murder, especially when at the time under the previous rules, there was no felonious activity.
I don't know if any sort of punishment should be applied in this particular case, but I have to slightly object to that principle that you seem to be expressing, that people shouldn't be punished for things that weren't explicitly forbidden in the rules of the website at the time of the incident.
You're missing the point of felony murder.
The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when an offender kills (regardless of intent to kill) in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime (called a felony in some jurisdictions), the offender, and also the offender's accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder.
The concept of felony murder originates in the rule of transferred intent, which is older than the limit of legal memory. In its original form, the malicious intent inherent in the commission of any crime, however trivial, was considered to apply to any consequences of that crime, however unintended.
Warp wrote:
The rules of a website like tasvideos.org can't be expected to be such a thing, and I think common sense should apply, especially in egregious cases of abuse, even if those cases could not have been predicted when the rules were first written.
I wouldn't call releasing a lot of encodes in a single day by several encoders/publishers an "egregious cases of abuse" . Common sense would tell me there's no problem at all. Encoders/publishers are doing what they should be doing. The outcome as described in the staff thread was probably a surprise to all involved, and possibly even unintended by those among them who had malicious intent.
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Warp wrote:
What I get from this is that it just caused some rules changes, and that "everybody said they won't do it again".
That leaves me the impression that the person who was guilty of this, and it appears that it was an intentional act, got no repercussions for his actions. (Of course I can't know what if any repercussions there were, because this is everything I get from this thread.)
I don't know why you're speaking in the singular when I clearly stated it was in the plural. So far we only know the motivations of one of the people involved, and only just recently. I have no way of knowing if it was intentional for the others, or just a group mentality of hey, let's go release a lot of new encodes.
The rule change we made for the encoders disallows them from doing anything that even looks like burying in the future, regardless of motivation. Prior to the rule change, releasing many encodes was not something we disallowed, regardless of the motivation for each individual behind doing so.
Warp wrote:
That being said, I am all for giving people second chances, don't get me wrong.
That is something I agree with, and was part of the discussion I had with all those involved. My understanding is also that the total impact of what occurred was not the intended goal. As much as I dislike what occurred, I'm not going to treat it like felony murder, especially when at the time under the previous rules, there was no felonious activity.
Alyosha wrote:
I have to say, I am almost stunned at the staff response here. I can only describe it as half interested and tired. But even that isn't really the right words. It just strikes me as strange. Did morale fall off a cliff lately?
You don't have all the information regarding what has been going on behind the scenes. I've been dealing with some of this attitude from various staff over the summer:
It doesn't help that I was hospitalized with my own set of problems over the summer (which you can read in the staff thread) nor that we've had a large increase in the amount of hostility and infighting among users for various videos, based primarily on imagined motivations of others. We're a community, and trying to undermine each other and hating each other based on your own imagination or misconception isn't helping anything. For many of the issues we've had of late, too many people want to exact their pound of flesh. If that were to occur, we would have no site left. I've been talking to many individuals privately trying to ease tensions for many of the issues we're having, but everyone wants to stay entrenched in their positions, and every few weeks, someone else wants to go add fuel to the fire. With what's going on, yes, morale has fallen off a cliff. Asking staff to stop doing the good things they are doing does not help with this. What we need is for everyone here, staff and regular users alike, to cool it with the hateful emotions, and stop performing whatever spiteful activity they have planned next. We need to work with each other again and stop finding every pretext imaginable to attacks others or twist the knife.
We cannot change, the past, but we can certainly redouble our efforts to be better behaved and accepting of others in the future. I would really love to see everyone at least trying to get along with each other. It'd be amazing if we can even go a month without a massive fight breaking out causing threads to splinter into hateful chains of sewage. We need to stop feeding threaded gruefood. Thank you.
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Memory wrote:
Nach wrote:
Some people have no reading compression regarding what a "recap" is.
So in other words all that was posted was just old information and nothing in light of new information?
That's what it says, no?
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adelikat wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
there is one thing I am taking issue with.
Nach wrote:
Regarding some encoders/publishers allegedly trying to bury publications
I take issue with this because it’s already clear that he did flood the channel for the purpose of burying the publication.
So you are taking issue with him saying allegedly back when it when it was unclear if it was or not?
Some people have no reading compression regarding what a "recap" is.
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This topic was discussed in Thread #20271: Viewership and re-encode flooding, which was till today a staff-only topic. It was dealt with at the time, and as can be seen there, we've since enacted rules to not flood. Everyone involved said they will no longer flood in the future. See additional details there.
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This was all dealt with back in July-August over IRC, but I'll put a recap up:
The TVC updater issue was fixed, bug turned out to be a change in YT API:
[Fri Jun 15 2018] [19:08:18] <feos> Nach: will you have time on tvc updater bug this weekend?
[Fri Jun 15 2018] [19:09:25] <Nach> feos: talk to me about it on Sunday
-------------------------------------------
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:46:12] <feos> Nach: if rating discussion (and specifically my suggestions) look bothering, they can be completely ignored if it helps you find time on tvc updater :)
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:47:02] <Nach> feos: I didn't have a computer that was usable for stuff till yesterday
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:47:17] <Nach> due to a weird string of events with multiple hardware dying on me in the past few weeks
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:47:25] <feos> right
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:47:30] <Nach> so now I need to catch up on some stuff
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:47:34] <Nach> then I can look into that updater
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:48:01] * feos 's hope wakes up
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:49:04] <Nach> I have multiple computers in my lab, as well as tons of parts, but my 3 top machines all had major components stop working within weeks of each other, completely out of the blue
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:49:16] <Nach> and the other machines are so old, they're not exactly useful these days
[Wed Jun 27 2018] [23:50:34] <Nach> I mean they're useful for stuff other family members do, but not development stuff
-------------------------------------------
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [21:26:49] <feos> Nach: with this out of the way, I can start asking about tvc updater more often, until you finally have time for it. how often should I be asking?
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:28:32] <Nach> feos: I probably will have time in a few days
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:28:42] <Nach> and I'm able to type with both hands again!
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:28:59] <feos> \o/ for both news!
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:28:59] <ThunderAxe31> hurray!!
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:29:05] <Nach> also, as of this past week, I can finally pick stuff up with both hands, which is fantastic
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:31:10] <Masterjun> that's pretty useful
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:31:23] <Nach> yes, it is
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:31:34] <Nach> and sometimes you take stuff like that for granted
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:31:49] <Nach> and realize how difficult things are with just one hand
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:32:28] <Masterjun> I sometimes try to type with only one hand and it takes like 4 times as long
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:32:48] <Nach> indeed
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:33:07] <Nach> I'm just glad I'm ambidextrous, otherwise it would have made things even more annoying
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:33:33] <Masterjun> neat
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:34:10] <Masterjun> is it possible to learn that or is that rooted in the brain somewhere?
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:36:46] <Nach> the answer I'm pretty sure is both
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:37:00] <Nach> there's a whole field of study how learning new motor controls enhances your brain
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:37:20] <Nach> and augments your brains handling of more complicated motor control in general
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:38:04] <Nach> techniques to start with: Try brushing your teeth with your other hand, eating your cereal in milk with your other hand, and using your mouse with your other hand
[Sat Aug 18 2018] [22:38:23] <Nach> keep it up for a week, it should start feeling comfortable
-------------------------------------------
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:07:44] <TASVideoAgent> root /var/svn/repos/tasvideosorg r6193 : Some cleanup, saner parsing, and fix YT updating, in the name of feos (by Nach).
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:08:17] <MemoryTAS> OH
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:08:44] <Mothrayas> oh
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:08:51] <fsvgm777> Oh?
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:10:01] <Nach> and yet feos is silent like a lump of tuna
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:10:17] <feos> I'm opening a ton of tabs to properly test it!
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:10:18] <Mothrayas> feos, please stop being a lump of tuna
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:12:14] <Nach> so the bug was hilarious
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:12:26] <Nach> we make sure to only update YT if its our channel
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:12:40] <fsvgm777> feos: Wake up, you lump of tuna!
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:12:45] <Nach> YT used to return the channel for the movie in their API as all lowercase, so that's what we checked for
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:12:57] <Nach> but now it returns the proper case, and was mismatching our case sensitive check
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:13:23] <feos> having to watch the supper on the pan doesn't speed me up
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:13:35] <Nach> is the supper in the pan a lump of tuna?
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:13:52] <Mothrayas> dang youtube constantly changing their api and breaking things all over
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:14:26] <fsvgm777> Dang YouTube breaking 60 FPS on anything lower than 1080p.
[Wed Aug 22 2018] [22:14:47] <Mothrayas> dang youtube just breaking things all over
I spoke to our publishers, and we agreed to take feos' suggestion about not flooding.
I don't have an exact log, since I wasn't on one of my normal computers at the time (see above quote as to why). IIRC, we agreed to keep amount of new stuff appearing on TVC to 10 a day. Although my exact memory of that time was fuzzy also due to loss of blood and stuff. If someone has more accurate info as to what we agreed to, please post.
Regarding some encoders/publishers allegedly trying to bury publications, I've spoke to all involved at the time. They gave me their word that they will not perform any activities which look like publication burying in the future. As these are private discussions, they will not be quoted.
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feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
Excuses do not change the requirements.
Where are you seeing excuses?
Memory wrote:
Nach wrote:
If additional input needs to occur, it must be part of the movie file.
Can't, desmume doesn't support it.
feos wrote:
Because we can't count on this "fix" being released officially (ever), and this movie needs an older desmume version.
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I don't understand why you're asking any of this.
Game input must be in the movie file, if it isn't, it's invalid. If there's a problem with the emulator not recording something, then the emulator needs to be fixed.
Excuses do not change the requirements.
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Memory wrote:
Nach wrote:
If additional input needs to occur, it must be part of the movie file.
Can't, desmume doesn't support it.
Then fix it.
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If additional input needs to occur, it must be part of the movie file.
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Radiant wrote:
Yes, but did you play at the game's default speed, or did you type in 'fast' at the game's command prompt to change this? That makes a pretty big difference: fast mode is meant for 4.7 MHz machines which were also on the market back then.
I wasn't even aware this was an option. I don't see it in the manual.
I'm not sure what speed my machine was, as I wasn't big into tech jargon and specifics back then, I just know that it was a 2x86 with a whopping 2MB of RAM as that's what it said on the case, and it had a turbo button. It was slower than my neighbor's computer that said 2x86 16MHz on it.
I can tell you that King's Quest, Space Quest, Police Quest was slow for me, and it was slow for my friends too. It used to take forever to walk across screens. In Space Quest II though, we used to turn the Turbo off to walk through the death plant maze, as it went so slow, you had to be incompetent to die.
I didn't even notice it when I first watched this run, but looking at the submission again now, I see it was edited to say it uses this "fast" parameter.
Radiant wrote:
On high-end PCs back in 1987, 'fast' mode was so unplayable fast that later Sierra games renamed it to 'fastest' and put in another faster-than-regular mode to compensate.
I no longer have my 2x86 or even 3x86 handy in order to test, you have a citation for this or a video of it running on a 1987 machine with the "fast" parameter?
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c-square wrote:
I completely missed this, as there was no question in my mind that the KQ TAS qualifies. On high-end systems of its era, the KQ1 game was literally uncontrollable at the fastest game setting.
I don't know what you're talking about. The game was designed for 2x86. I played it on a 2x86, it wasn't fast at all.
c-square wrote:
Unlike KQ1, CD-Man was designed for 4x86, and it's Warp option was even insanely fast on a 3x86, even though our emulator is even faster. However, it was elligible, because when we slowed down the movie to match a more realistic 4x86 speed, it still qualifies. When I slow down KQ1 to match 2x86 speeds, I don't see anything fast about it.
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How systems are combined is always based on amount of TASes were on the platform for the year. Just look how organization changed each year regarding how awards are combined.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Evil_3D wrote:
hacks are not allowed
I see no reason why hacked games need to be excluded from this category as long as the hack isn't just there to make a regular game faster. If the aim of the hack provides new areas or other significant game-play changes not solely focused on speed, we can allow it for this category, assuming it meets the relevant speed requirements.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
It doesn't help that I was hospitalized with my own set of problems over the summer (which you can read in the staff thread) nor that we've had a large increase in the amount of hostility and infighting among users for various videos, based primarily on imagined motivations of others. We're a community, and trying to undermine each other and hating each other based on your own imagination or misconception isn't helping anything. For many of the issues we've had of late, too many people want to exact their pound of flesh. If that were to occur, we would have no site left. I've been talking to many individuals privately trying to ease tensions for many of the issues we're having, but everyone wants to stay entrenched in their positions, and every few weeks, someone else wants to go add fuel to the fire. With what's going on, yes, morale has fallen off a cliff. Asking staff to stop doing the good things they are doing does not help with this. What we need is for everyone here, staff and regular users alike, to cool it with the hateful emotions, and stop performing whatever spiteful activity they have planned next. We need to work with each other again and stop finding every pretext imaginable to attacks others or twist the knife.
We cannot change, the past, but we can certainly redouble our efforts to be better behaved and accepting of others in the future. I would really love to see everyone at least trying to get along with each other. It'd be amazing if we can even go a month without a massive fight breaking out causing threads to splinter into hateful chains of sewage. We need to stop feeding threaded gruefood. Thank you.