Posts for Nach

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henke37 wrote:
Now the question is: why is it different for our (site) rules how the data is stored? So what makes it different if I where to replace 1-1 in smb with 6-4? That I had used a tool that did understand the data container format? But it is the exact same thing here! Just that the container format happens to be named "FAT".
In this case part of the game is the DOS environment. The DOS environment provides certain tools. This would be akin to a console game which had a BIOS loaded at the start which you could somehow within it before loading the game tweak in order to provide a better TASing condition.
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henke37 wrote:
Nach wrote:
Not at all. The game rules say file begins play from file on the file system accessed via name so and so, and then that file determines what to do after that.
Oh, so it's ok to edit files as long it's not the main executable?
Why do you keep using the idea of 'edit files'? I never suggested that.
henke37 wrote:
What if the levels was hardcoded in the executable? Would be still be allowed to swap them around at will? Of course not.
Well, we'd then have to consider exploiting bugs in the memory map, won't we.
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henke37 wrote:
Oh, so if I photocopy "expensive road" in Monopoly and cross out "expensive" and write "cheapass" with crayons instead, I am suddenly allowed to charge people who hit that street with a much higher rent?
You're comparing apples and sheep.
henke37 wrote:
cross out "expensive" and write "cheapass" with crayons instead
You keep saying things like that, I'm not.
henke37 wrote:
The game rules says "you have to play level 1, 2 and 3 in order to play level 4" they also say "level 1 could be beaten by holding the right button, level 2 has lots of jumps and level 3 is batshit insane".
Not at all. The game rules say file begins play from file on the file system accessed via name so and so, and then that file determines what to do after that.
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Derakon wrote:
So if a normal console game provided access to its level data from within the game (via special code in the game intended for this purpose), then would it be a legit part of the run to use that access to shuffle the game data around? I'd argue not. That sounds like a "debug mode" thing, which falls under the same category as button combinations -- invalid in the vast majority of possible uses.
But we're fine with buffer overflowing or lack of memory zeroing some segment of data onto another to skip huge sections? (see Super Metroid)
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henke37 wrote:
My point is just that the all the files the game is made up of is a part of the game. The level data is as much a part of the game rules as the game engine.
Yes. I'm not suggesting you edit any of that whatsoever.
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henke37 wrote:
So "copy con level.bin" is ok then? Or maybe "copy bytes\42.bin+bytes\32.bin level.bin"? Or even better yet "copy wininstantly.exe game.exe"! In the end, you are messing with the game in a way that obviously shouldn't be allowed. Who cares what rule there is against it, it's just not something that is ok.
I'm referring to copying only what is provided with the game itself, not files you dug up elsewhere, or 'copying' from the keyboard.
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Using the DOS "copy" command is not editing files. It's replacing/adding files with existing files.
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henke37 wrote:
Yes, but that would be equivalent as to using a cheating device. And that is against the rules.
Are you referring to the first or the second? The speed mode is built right into the game intending to be used. It's in the instructions too. The second is part of the environment. The question is to what extent of manipulating DOS would we allow?
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Don't forget the game has a speed control, to best TAS it, you want to make the game fly. Also, being a bit clever and employing the DOS copy command, you could skip the first 3 levels... Edit by DarkKobold: Further discussion of the DOS copy command legitimacy should go here: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9455
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I just want to say that in the event someone puts something on Archive.org with some text before it was published, after it is published, please direct the links to the movie page, not the submission page. Thank you.
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Dacicus wrote:
Nach wrote:
While it is a nice pipe dream thinking that perhaps our runs can be considered theoretically possible on a real system, that's hardly what we're about. We're about entertainment.
I must be as confused (or more) as FODA on this point, but are you saying it's absolutely impossible for a TAS to be replicated on an actual console?
If you hooked up a cable from your computer's USB port to your console's input port, and had it try to playback a movie you made, I'd say 99% of the time, it's not going to work, and you'll have it desync. In the rare event you do get it to sync, you'll probably never have it sync again on a future playback.
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Post subject: The truth revealed
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It's time to let you in on a closely guarded secret that I have been hiding for many years. I am the most manipulative person on the entire planet. I can get anyone to do anything and have them think it was their own idea. The creation of TASVideos? My idea! But as time went on, I decided to make my presence more known. I gave Bisqwit his new mission (you cannot imagine the dreams he's been having lately), and I announced myself as the new leader of TASVideos. The other staff such as adelikat, mmbossman, Sgrunt, Aktan, Flygon, and others have been my puppets or aliases this entire time. All the recent events over the past two days? Don't blame or give credit to anyone else for it, I'm behind it all. I tricked them all into posting what they did. I take credit for everything that has gone on here good or bad, smart or stupid since the site began, and until its very near closure. The rebuttal posted here several hours ago was an April Fools Prank. This site is really closing, and I'm doing it all purely to flex my power over you. You now know of my scheme, and it is time to say goodbye.
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Post subject: Puppetmaster
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goldfish wrote:
Going to such lengths for the purpose of evoking passionate responses from those who love the site seems kind of manipulative, and I don't much like knowing that I've been emotionally manipulated.
At least it took the most evil and cunning puppetmaster of them all. If it was any other day, you wouldn't even know your strings were being pulled.
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klmz wrote:
@Nach: I see. It is this very "Rebuttal" your April Fools joke. And this site will be shut down soon.
Of course.
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FODA wrote:
If the only issue is the console's randomness, I don't see why TASes can't be replicated on them. It would only take some attempts, but it can be done, which doesn't invalidate TASes.
If you can't see why, you haven't read what I wrote clearly, or you're having issues grasping the technicalness of it. It can not be done on consoles for most games. Some attempts would be more like several billion if you're lucky. Move to a different environment, and watch that never sync up.
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There's been an important update.
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So the big question is, will the site shutdown or will in continue. Is this a joke, or not? The answer is: A little of both. We never had any intention to shut down the site this month, but we also have to face some cold hard facts. On the one hand, TASing capabilities in emulators and for the site have grown significantly in recent times. On the other, we haven't had most really hard core members stick around long term. We have new people coming, but some of the older crowd to some extent seem to be getting fed up and leaving. The idea of TASing is now more well known, but people are no longer fighting for the idea of TASing. In our progression, our activists have grown complacent. Our community survived the hardships of coming into being, and putting up with people who didn't like the idea our site advertised, and felt we had no right to even exist. We survived our founder deciding to throw in the towel. The question is, are we strong enough to survive from ourselves? Can we exist with no pressure driving us on? With our current server subscription running out soon, these are important questions. With the added features we have on the site, and ones we plan on adding soon, our load has gotten heavier. Further, since the addition of streaming video from our site, more people have been coming by than ever before to simply watch videos. I do have some interesting things being developed in my laboratory which is only going to stress these issues further. These factors probably mean a higher server cost for the upcoming year. Is the community still interested in funding the site? The answer: a resounding yes! Thanks to everyone who sent me a message pledging support for the upcoming year, your support will help shape decisions on what features we will be adding to the site in the months to come. As Bisqwit stated, the purpose of April Fools isn't to scare the community and cause heart attacks, but to test drive features that wouldn't go well on other days, and get a good laugh out of people. Now some of you did get a good laugh out of this, and appreciated the elaborate lengths our staff went to fool you with a long winded thread. But some of you were also extremely saddened and even cried. And for the latter of you, I can't thank you enough. Not because I enjoy watching you suffer (quite the opposite in fact), but because seeing so many people truly enjoying and truly appreciating our site, never wanting to see it go, and fight for it to continue is what keeps the staff going. I want to thank everyone who sent me heartfelt messages on what TASing means to them. One user wrote in to tell me that TASVideos cheered him up while he had a death in the family. Others stressed how important our research was to them. And many expressed how we provide unique art that can't really be gotten elsewhere. One user wrote: "It is more than just a website to me, this place has become a good source of friendship, and I would be sad to see this place close down." Those who came out in droves to show their support really means a lot to us. The main staff throughout the entire year gets a lot of grief over the things we do and things we don't do. Every decision or change inevitably has a member start a thread to chew out the staff, with others joining in. We accepted a bad movie. We rejected a good movie. We reworded something. We changed a color. The list goes on and on. We rarely get any thanks for the hard work we do. Then, when we ask for help to advertise the site further, word things better, create some demos, no one seems to have an opinion. This is not about the staff looking for payback, but quite the opposite. Despite it all, do you like the site? Or would it be fine if it goes out quietly in the night? So for this April Fools, we did something Bisqwit would never do: Announce something scary - to get people to give an opinion and a reason why our site is important. Controversial - to spread like wildfire to other gaming sites to get people to check us out again if they haven't in a while. And also attack the heart of the rift in our community - the value of speed vs. entertainment. Some people who left recently told me it's because they're upset we don't fuel every frame war, reject movies which only improve a few frames, or accept movies which are sloppy. Others are upset when we do have minor improvements without large changes, where it only seems people are going for speed records, or reject a sloppy movie which did entertain a lot of people. The thread was carefully crafted around this issue, suggesting records aren't accurate, how about entertainment only - if the site continues. Surprisingly enough, one of this site's most "gung ho - speed above all" members messaged me that he'd want the site to continue anyway. Seems the rift isn't as big as I thought. Seriously, instead of attacking one another, and fighting with the judges over decisions, view all that against the site as a whole. Don't just think about leaving. Consider if your disagreement and disapproval is worth shutting the site down altogether? We rely on our users for content, and if all the good people leave, we won't have much of any. Before you think to yourself that you'll just go off on your own and make TASes as a hobby ignoring out site, remember that our site makes and improves emulators for TASing. If we don't have people here demanding emulators for newer systems, or requesting fixes for older ones, you can't enjoy your hobby elsewhere either. We're also one of the best sources around for documentation of games. So if you feel like leaving, remember all that we also provide. We're not asking you to get along with every member on the site, but please continue to submit your work when you're done. We have our differences, and we can hardly find a pair of members to agree on more than a couple of things, but I think we can all agree on our love of TASing. Speaking of newer systems, the amount of submissions we've gotten so far this year seems to be low. One user suggested it's because all the good games have already been TASed rather well. Perhaps he is right. But that's why we need to start looking more at newer systems. We've added so many new systems to be TASable, and we really haven't seen that effort paid off yet. Come on people, get to it! Another user also wrote to me with a suggestion regarding all the good games being taken already - more and more game hacks are being made all the time! He is quite right. I want to alert everyone that some time back, we changed our rules regarding game hacks. If you find a hack which is really good, and you can make an awesome original TAS with it, then by all means do so! Now of course, there's still the problem of the issues brought up about why TASing isn't the same as playing a game on the actual system. It has been mentioned that emulators have more consistency than systems do. This is true. It has also been mentioned that emulators emulate averages of a system, instead of any exact cases. This is also true. In fact, those who work on emulators here, such as people like myself, have known this for years! Initial state randomness which was brought up in Blades of Steel thread is well known among emulation authors, and is exhibited in many games. While it is a nice pipe dream thinking that perhaps our runs can be considered theoretically possible on a real system, that's hardly what we're about. We're about entertainment. We're about finding something in the game to portray in a movie that will make someone familiar with the game wipe their jaw off the sub basement. We're about art. So if you're about to make a movie to beat the last speed record, remember this: Try to surpass it in entertainment as well, don't just look for the simplest way to progress in a given time interval. So knowing that TASing is more theoretical than what many people previously thought theoretical to mean, is there any point in having a speed record at all made with an emulator? Considering many variations of a particular emulator, and multiple emulators for a system, probably not. But look at the flip side of the equation too. When you go to make a speedrun on a console, start up state is completely random. Timing states in the game vary constantly too. In fact, you can cause the console to time things differently by changing the temperature in your room, or using a different television set. A clever engineer could tweak his console's environment to give a more favorable play through than what his competitor would be facing. Speedrunners on real consoles have a lot of randomness or "luck" that they face, that even alters by restarting the game over and over again, but further, some people could be "cheating" the system without you realizing it! All the points brought up in our thread actually make speedrunning look worse for real consoles than it does for emulators. When you get a video of a console run, you really have no idea what went on in the making of it. A television set with internal scanrates altered could speed up a game ever so slightly, resulting in a run which is a couple of seconds faster than the last by not doing anything else. The case can be akin to two racers supposedly evenly matched on everything but skill, where one racer is secretly packing an invisible turbo engine in his car. With an emulator on the other hand, given a recorded keypress file, and told which publicly available open source emulator you used provides a more honest run. We can verify that what you did beats the game, we can verify you didn't cheat in any way, but did exactly what you stated you did. Our best emulators provide the same challenges every single time you play it, for everyone, so all our members have equal footing if they want to go in for a challenge. Adding on top of that our tools, the competition is no longer defined by your natural inborn physical limits, but merely your time and dedication. We offer the ultimate in equal rights, fair, balanced, and verifiable game play. It doesn't match an actual system to every last detail, but the games are the same - only better. They play back consistently, and without secretly hiding anything. So thanks for showing your support, providing information on why you love TASing and what it means to you - which we'll use to overhaul our information pages. Thanks for coming back to our site, reading this, and hopefully participating (more) in the future. Your ever loving dictator, -Nach
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Not everyone sees everything the first time around. This thread was resurrected here: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=230104#230104 on March 24th, which brought it to our attention.
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See the front page or the announcement in General.
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Post subject: New Site / Continuing Site
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If some people here really feel strongly about continuing this site, or launching a similar one, with necessary changes, send me a private message. If enough people feel we either provide a good resource, or don't care and want these types of movies anyway, and you wouldn't mind paying $5 a year or something, please send me a private message. I'm not making any promises, but if enough people want a site, with a new goal, where we provide something similar to what we have till now, let me know.
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Post subject: Announcement
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adelikat: You writing up an announcement? We can't keep putting this off forever, especially if we're shutting the server at the end of April.
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I get it that we're all depressed, and no one now wants to put even more work into the site, such as making a nice tarball. I'm not asking you to do it. Despite my signature, I've cared about this site since its inception, and knew many people here before the site started, and will continue to be friends with after we close. I'll be doing it because I care about all the effort that was put into this site after all these years, even if it was pointless. I'm going to do my utmost to make sure we have an amicable close, even if the rest of you are too dejected to. I believe I can have the tarball ready by the end of the week without anyone's help. Don't worry yourself about it. adelikat: Post whatever you need to on the front page, I'll edit it later when the tarball is ready. Also, we should probably create a text file of the URLs to every video on archive.org and YouTube or wherever and offer that for download too.
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We'd host them because people put work into them, and its memories for some, not because it's really worthwhile in any way. And obviously for playback, they'll need to grab the right emulator. But you bring up a good point, trying 16 different versions of an emulator can be a bit annoying, so I guess the tarball should include /*S.html from the site.
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Post subject: Input files
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sgrunt: Regardless of the accuracy of input files, people may want them, and many videos we have not encoded. So we can make an archive which will be some dozens of megabytes, or we can spend the next who knows how long encoding every submission ever, and then uploading them all to archive.org. I think the former is an easier backup system. Even if we really preferred the latter, we can't do it within a month. And yes I know some submissions are utter trash, but many weren't, and were only rejected because we felt this wasn't the right site for them, not because the movie itself was inherently bad.
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We definitely need time for people to backup what they want before we close down. I should make a tarball of all the input files ever submitted, and we can let people download that. I have some time to do that later this week. In the mean time, probably would be a good idea to make an announcement, and at the very least, summarize some posts here for our fans.
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