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Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Warp wrote:
It doesn't matter what I say. I could go on a huge tirade full of insults, swearwords and the most heinous things worthy of a lifetime ban, yet personal attacks and mockery would still not be the appropriate response from site staff. Don't try to excuse your mockery towards me by alluding to how you perceived my messages. If you want to refute my claims, do it neutrally and professionally.
You're asking that I divine exactly what each thing I say may connotate to you, in the hopes that I don't inadvertently hurt your feelings. I have no intention to hurt your feelings. Putting that aside, I don't believe in political correctness, much less that I should become a mind reader to try to phrase things in a way to ensure that I don't somehow unintentionally hurt your feelings.
Warp wrote:
Correct him on the origin of the name.
The origin of the name of TASVideos is Tool-assisted superplay movies, this is not up for debate or negotiation.
Warp wrote:
Anyone who tries to alter the core purpose of our site, diminish it, and pass that off as reality deserves to be mocked incessantly. Not that I'm trying to mock you at all. But if someone did, in this case it's well deserved.
My respect for you as the highest member of the site staff is diminishing by the message. Learn some professionalism, will you?
You forgot to quote part of the message: "In general though, ideas should be attacked, not people."
You'll have to define professionalism here for me. What do you think is the correct professional way to deal with someone who appears to be trying to diminish your site and promoting having it reject its core tenets?
Warp wrote:
I have been mocked and attacked by other members of the site staff plenty enough in the past, and frankly, I'm absolutely sick of it. I don't need it from you.
I don't think you should be personally attacked by members of the site staff.
Warp wrote:
What I don't like is constant squabbles over the soul of our site, but hey no one is perfect.
Then feel free to refute and critique my claims in a civilized manner, without resorting to personal attacks.
I felt what I did was a civilized manner.
I did not use any profanity, I did not mention any violence towards you, I did not call you names, I did not describe you in a derogatory manner.
The only thing I did was mention that we've had this argument before, what your position is, and that now you're claiming anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. As far as I can perceive, this is an accurate depection of what you're doing, and you dislike that I'm calling you out on it. Instead you're turning this around into I'm somehow personally attacking you, and it's not fair because you have a right to "huge tirade full of insults, swearwords and the most heinous things worthy of a lifetime ban", and I'm not allowed to contest it when you claim that this is a personal attack. I'm sorry, but you don't have a right to attempt to diminish our site and then try to deflect a civilized refutation by claiming it hurt your feelings.
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Warp wrote:
You could have stated your point of view without making it about "Warp does this, Warp does that". That sounds like, and pretty much effectively is, a level of mockery at me, no matter what your true intentions were.
You could have stated your point of view without claiming no one is allowed to disagree with you.
To me it sounds like I'm saying where you fit into this since this has happened a few times.
Warp wrote:
In fact, and while I can't be 100% sure, but I'm like 95% sure, I was the person, or one of the people, who suggested it, or at the very least, promoted it.
According to change logs on important early pages, you introduced it on a few of them alongside other preexisting terminology. So please, be 100% sure.
Warp wrote:
As said, it has been so long that I can't remember exact details with absolute certainty, but I do vividly remember that the suggestion was precisely originally "tool-assisted speedrun" (because that was what it meant in the Doom speedrunning community).
Yes that was originally suggested, and as I've often stated, we don't care what is done elsewhere, and it's not what was adopted for the site's name.
Warp wrote:
Anyway, you seem to be taking that as some kind of statement about what the goal and purpose of the site should be. My recollection of the events surrounding the adoption of the acronym "TAS" has absolutely nothing to do with what the site should be about, only what those letters stood for originally.
Then why are you trying to "correct" people who are stating what the site is and should be about?
Patashu wrote: "The name TASVideos doesn't stand for Tool-Assisted Speedrun Videos, it stands for Tool-Assisted Superplay Videos, and it always has (AFAIK). Therefore non-speedrun content (like playarounds, score attacks and ACE demonstrations) are permitted on the site."
Patashu was talking about the name of the site and the site's goals. You tried to "correct" him.
Anyone who tries to alter the core purpose of our site, diminish it, and pass that off as reality deserves to be mocked incessantly. Not that I'm trying to mock you at all. But if someone did, in this case it's well deserved. In general though, ideas should be attacked, not people.
Warp wrote:
It irks me when people keep repeating that "TAS has always stood for tool-assisted superplay, not for speedrun", almost dogmatically, when I vividly remember otherwise. The "superplay" backronym was suggested later.
And Patashu clearly stated, that the TAS of TASVideos stands for "superplay", he didn't say the original meaning of "TAS" outside of the name "TASVideos" which can be found some place online stood for "Superplay". The meaning of "TAS" in "TASVideos" wasn't "later", that was on day one of the site changing it's name to TASVideos. You were the one who jumped in and decided to "correct" Patashu on what the site was originally supposed to be about (and remember we accepted River City Ransom "playaround" as one of the earliest runs to be published).
For the future, when someone is talking about what "TASVideos" stands for, or the goals of the site as being superplays, don't try to "correct" them. You can talk about how the Doom community which predates TASVideos used the term TAS. You can talk about how before officially adopting TASVideos as the site's name you and a few others here used the term TAS as the Doom community did. But please do not write anything which claims that TASVideos from it's early days was not about superplays, which includes speedruns or otherwise, and please stop trying to insinuate that the meaning of the site was ever anything other than what you see in the logo on the upper left of the forum.
If you don't attempt to change the meaning of the site, and anything else you say regarding the history of terms is properly quantified without diminishing the site or its aims, we won't have a problem.
Edit:
Also to address something you wrote earlier, "You don't need to like me; I don't mind that.", I actually do like you, very much so. I appreciate your point of view, especially when it's in a workbench thread for a submission I'm judging. I appreciate many of the articles you wrote here and on your own website and blog. Your critique of Java is even something I use when I teach Computer Science. Your "everything is a pointer" remark is one of the most insightful I've seen on the subject.
What I don't like is constant squabbles over the soul of our site, but hey no one is perfect.
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p4wn3r wrote:
it's just that you occasionally make some bad taste jokes (like stating in your location that you torture TASers and forumers)
What makes you think this is a joke? I've joined the dark side and I like cookies.
If you don't appreciate my brand of humor, it's your loss.
p4wn3r wrote:
That looks like it was taken straight out of the soviet Pravda.
Funny you should bring that up, I was reading some of that over the weekend looking for pointers.
p4wn3r wrote:
Could you elaborate on what's morally wrong about suggesting that, maybe it's a better idea to avoid bowing to newcomer tastes in order to avoid institutional chaos? It seemed to me we were having a nice discussion here, and while people were not agreeing, we were making progress towards some understanding.
I don't think the entire site should only cater to newcomers. You won't find me defending that.
p4wn3r wrote:
Also, where does your self-appointed zealotry as defender of the faith come from? Do you have a PhD on entertainment business or you just happened to be around when Bisqwit was not having so much time to manage the site anymore?
I've been around since the site launched, Bisqwit handed it off to me, and I told him I won't fail him.
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Warp wrote:
You did not simply state facts in a neutral manner.
No, I didn't, neither did you.
Warp wrote:
You wrote it as a passive-aggressive mockery against me.
I didn't intend it that way.
Warp wrote:
I'm getting really tired of the complete unprofessionalism that some members of the site staff have demonstrated, and keep demonstrating, over the years. There have been personal attacks, insults, swearwords and mockery, both in private and in public. There have been threads with explicit mockery against me in their titles, created by site staff.
I don't think that's appropriate. If you have a specific problem like that with a new thread, please contact me.
Warp wrote:
If your intent was to make me angry, then congratulations. You succeeded, big time.
My intent was to set the record straight. The last segment was in direct response to you claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is rewriting history. Whether my post makes you angry or not is not relevant to me. As I said, I'm here to defend the essence of the site against anyone who attempts to diminish it or present a concept that we should be accepting less videos that are entertaining.
River City Ransom, a non-speedrun "playaround" was accepted as one of the first runs on the site.
It was later obsoleted by a run which spent even more time playing around. You stated your objection to it in that thread.
The essence of our site has been from the start about Superplays. Whether that means speed or not is not the deciding factor, even if that's usually the case.
As Bisqwit wrote:
As for objectivity, the thing is that we aim for a subjective measure: entertainment. Entertainment is not a mathematical formula. It cannot be objectively measured; it needs a number of subjective components, the human audience.
Speed, etc. are just devices to create entertainment. Even though speed can be measured accurately, entertainment cannot. This is a fact, and we have to live with it. Our method of judging that is a variation of something called "consensus". Your mileage may vary.
And from our old Why and How page:
Our primary goals are to create art and provide entertainment.
A movie is entertaining when it is:
* Interesting (not slow, boring, or repetitive)
* Surprising (does the unexpected)
* Skillful (handles awkward situations efficiently and creatively)
and our main goal is to create movies that are beautiful to watch.
I will zealously defend our site against anyone who defies this or tries to make us buckle to outside forces.
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Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
You keep making up your own version of events regarding what the site is about. As long as you do so, I will continue to attack you for it.
Very professional and classy. Great job.
Thank you, I appreciate your compliment.
Stop being an ------- and start acting your position as site manager.
My position as site manager is to defend the site against the notion that we are not and have not always been about Superplays. Comments such as "Anybody who claims otherwise is engaging in historical revisionism" against our position regarding Superplays will be treated with the cold hard facts as just done earlier.
Our site was, is, and will continue to be about Superplays. No apologies will be made for what we are about.
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Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
You keep making up your own version of events regarding what the site is about. As long as you do so, I will continue to attack you for it.
Very professional and classy. Great job.
Thank you, I appreciate your compliment.
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Warp wrote:
Nach wrote:
5) Post 2010, every time someone reminds Warp
6) Post 2010, nearly every time Warp brings this up
7) Post 2017, Warp now claims
Haven't we gone through enough instances of personal attacks against me from the part of the site staff? Do we really need to go through yet another one, and from you of all people?
If you want to state facts as you see/remember them, then state them as facts, in a neutral manner. Don't go into passive-aggressive personal attacks with "Warp says this, Warp says that". Have some professionalism, especially given your position.
You keep making up your own version of events regarding what the site is about. As long as you do so, I will continue to attack you for it.
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Warp wrote:
Speedruns (be they unassisted or tool-assisted) are entertaining all by themselves, no matter what the goals may be. If they weren't, nobody would make them, and nobody would watch them. It's not like speedrunning is some kind of boring job that just has to be done by somebody. People play games fast because they like it (most often because of the challenge and the competition), and people watch them because they find them entertaining and exciting.
This statement is not objectively true.
Speedruns are not entertaining by themselves, because our voting, ratings, and discussions show that many of them are considered boring by our audience. If Speedruns were entertaining objectively, every Speedrun submission would be well received, but the fact of the matter is, they are not.
Entertainment is also subjective, for three reasons:
1) Different cultures and upbringings put emphasis on different things, and some of them don't even have a concept of entertainment in terms of what most of the site thinks of as entertainment.
2) Some people have various conditions of Autism, which leaves them unable to appreciate certain kinds of things, and cannot even understand nor appreciate what most other humans find interesting.
3) People have different tastes and different exposure to games, changing their perception of what they like in various runs.
For the majority of our users, the goals and what is done in a run absolutely matter, and Speedruns are not found entertaining by themselves. That's objective truth here. Based on your personal preference that you prefer the absolute Speedruns and do not understand the entertainment we talk about, I strongly suspect you fit into category 1 or 2 of what I just described.
Many of our users make the content that they do because they enjoy the process and want to see whatever outcome they produce, want to get it published here for the recognition, or want it to show off to friends or make money on some site. Not everything speed based comes off as entertaining and exciting for our audience.
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Warp wrote:
Patashu wrote:
The name TASVideos doesn't stand for Tool-Assisted Speedrun Videos, it stands for Tool-Assisted Superplay Videos, and it always has (AFAIK).
Actually no. The name comes originally from the Doom speedrunning community, from much earlier than the nesvideos (not to talk about tasvideos) site even existed, where "TAS" was originally short for "tools-assisted speedrun". The same acronym was adopted here, originally with the same meaning. I know. I was there.
Some time along the line during the earlier years of the site some people wanted to change the meaning of that "S", so they suggested a convenient alternative, "superplay". In other words, "TAS" became a so-called backronym.
Anybody who claims otherwise is engaging in historical revisionism. Now everybody is repeating the mantra "the S doesn't stand for speedrun!" like it were absolute gospel.
I wish you would stop it with this nonsense.
1) Doom runs were published on the site early on (like the first week of the site), the doom run community may have called them TASs or whatever, our site called them "Time Attacks".
2) The site becomes NESVideos in early 2004 because it's primarily about NES tool-assisted speed runs, called "Time Attacks" and also "Superplays" which were inclusive of both "Time Attacks" as well as "playarounds" of NES games like River City Randsom. Even though uses of the term tool-assisted, and mentions about tool-assisted "Time Attacks" or speedruns were common, the acronym "TAS" was not used commonly in discussions until mid-2005.
3) After the addition of SNES, Gameboy, and Genesis, in 2006 people talk about renaming the site because NESVideos doesn't really apply anymore, and different ideas are discussed, everyone agrees they want to make the name more generic. The idea TASVideos is suggested because TAS in Doom community meant Tool-Assisted Speedrun. This idea is rejected because the site contained non-speed runs, labeled "playarounds", and runs which exchanged speed for entertainment.
4) Someone suggested we call it TASVideos if we define it as Tool-Assisted Superplays, because we commonly used the term "Superplay" on the site, and it was inclusive of all our content, and it would also satisfy those who suggested we use the name. In late 2006, Bisqwit has the site renamed to TASVideos, and the graphic you see on the above left which says "Tool-assisted superplay movies" is introduced. "TAS" becomes the primary way we refer to all our videos. The term "Time Attack" is no longer used anywhere.
5) Post 2010, every time someone reminds Warp that when the site was called TASVideos, on day one of it using the name, it meant Tool-Assisted Superplays, Warp responds with "but that's not what the Doom community used TAS to mean or what people used in conversations before the site was officially renamed TASVideos".
6) Post 2010, nearly every time Warp brings this up, Nach or others remind Warp that the site TASVideos was using Tool-Assisted Superplays as the meaning of it's own name since it had the name TASVideos.
7) Post 2017, Warp now claims Nach and others are participating in historical revisionism.
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feos wrote:
p4wn3r wrote:
and request the change explicitly
Request it from whom? Moth is an admin and a senior judge.
Moth did propose some rule elaboration and requested from me that I accept it. I did.
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£e Nécroyeur wrote:
Nach wrote:
ThunderAxe31, how can you accept this? Game Girl for Gameboy has cooties! This makes our site less macho.
Oh sure, yet this Samus Aran lady is the talk of the town. Sexism is not the problem; the double standard is! :)
Samus Aran does not have cooties and is plenty macho despite not being masculine.
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feos wrote:
I don't like "final track, all equipment", but it tells everything one should know about the run to be able to decide if they want to watch it.
I don't like it either. I only suggest it as a starting point which is informative and accurate, and hopefully causes someone to have a better more refined idea.
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ThunderAxe31, how can you accept this? Game Girl for Gameboy has cooties! This makes our site less macho.
On a more serious note, EZGames69, good job optimizing. Would be nice if you can get that glitch to work. Then we can have even less Barbie. Thanks.
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I've said a number of times, we don't care what is done in other communities. We have our own rules and our own users with their own mindsets. That may line up with what is done elsewhere, it may not.
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Don't expect us to label something "100%..." if we have some users who will point out reasonable things are missing.
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Niamek wrote:
It still does collect them.
But the original ones (that are slower to get than cloning) are still available to collect.
Please, don't let me prevent you from contradicting yourself.
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If the main goal is to actually collect them wherever they are, even if it means warping to them, and you did so, then you completed your objective. If you just put an item into your menu but did not actually collect them, then you did not complete your objective.
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Once you dupe these items on the menu, can you still collect the ones intended in the game and exceed the amount intended as maximum?
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andypanther wrote:
Reposting a question from the "Gotta catch 'em all" submission of Pokémon Blue: If someone submitted an Ocarina of Time 100% under the alternative ruleset, would it be considered legit?
Please inform us why it wouldn't be considered legit.
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I continue to stand with Mothrayas.
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Fortranm wrote:
Sure, it's not 100%, but can a run with the rule I mentioned be named "all quests"?
No.
Fortranm wrote:
The question is, when is an ending considered finished when the game doesn't save at all? In other words, when should the reset be done?
Probably when the ending stops playing, and either pauses, music loops, or goes back to the title screen.
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That works for me.
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I think I'd prefer "completionist" over "maximum completion", since the former makes me want to read the description to find out what the heck that even means, while the latter may make me think it's 100% and possibly ignore the description.
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feos wrote:
So what version of the label do you personally prefer?
My original suggestion was something along the lines of "all equipment and techniques", although I'm not set on the exact wording. Any variation of that is fine with me.
I'd be fine with other wording which describes it's trying to be completionist or towards maximum completion with descriptive text.
I'm definitely not fine with 100% which is completely absurd for anyone who isn't married to some other gaming community and has thus turned their critical thinking skills off.
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feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
Everyone can have their own criteria on what full or high means, but the only things we can say about the current one that is unanimously agreed to is that it got one of every piece of equipment, it learned all techniques, and it did a lot of other stuff, but by no means all. This is why I suggested originally we name it something like "all equipment and techniques" because that's the only things that we can honestly and objectively agree to.
"it did a lot of other stuff, but by no means all" - this part was lacking from the originally accepted label. And I don't see any sensible way to add that: it'd be the 3rd part of the label, and it can't even be accurately formulated as a label.
Well, we don't accept movies for only doing part of something. I accepted it because it got all the equipment and techniques. All the other qualifications were not met. If someone were to submit a run which is shorter, more entertaining, and does those two things, I'd have it obsolete this. This is precisely because "it did a lot of other stuff, but by no means all" is arbitrary and cannot be described in any meaningful way.
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