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feos wrote:
What if "Game ending" doesn't use "Arbitrary code"? Make it just "game ending"? Or maybe "game end glitch" or something?
Whatever makes the most sense according to rules 1 - 3.
feos wrote:
SM with X-ray glitch would be "X-Ray" or "X-Ray glitch"? X-ray can be used without glitching.
According to rule 1, X-Ray is most certainly not descriptive enough as you pointed out. The latter may also not be if there's more than one kind of X-ray glitch. So perhaps it should be something along the lines of X-ray bound breakingfeos wrote:
How about using a movie flag to mark what was previously marked by dropping the label, a "fastest category" flag?
According to what I laid out, branch names are closely related to the tags set. If a tag is very important, it probably needs to be in the branch. If the tag has polar opposites, they probably need to be mentioned in all branches.
I'll respond better when I have more time.
amaurea wrote:
But I'm confused about "Arbitrary Code - Level ending". Why would you just end the level when you have the power to do anything you want?
As I said, it's an example of a an AC sub-tag. Don't take the examples too seriously. But also see what feos said in reply to this.
Scepheo wrote:
Nach wrote:
4) Arbitrary code is now a primary tag which should be used on runs which make use of them, and always has a sub tag. Examples of sub-tags and possible cases they may be used:
Arbitrary code - Scene (Pi)
Arbitrary code - Game ending (Fast Super Mario World, Super Metroid, Battletoads)
Arbitrary code - Level ending (Other Battletoads run)
Arbitrary code - New game(s) (SMW Snake & Pong)
Arbitrary code - Adds cheats (aforementioned rejected SMW run)
Motion to split this into just "Game completion" and "Demonstration".
Except there can be a dozen different types of AC. Let's not be too hasty in minimizing the list.
feos wrote:
Agreed with only 2 kinds of options for ACE.
Possible names for not completing the game:
- demonstration
- payload
- playaround
For completing the game, it's either "game end" or "some other skip".
Every usage of AC has a payload. Let's really come up with the specific kinds of AC we've seen, not just some larger super sets where a run may end up getting multiple entries there that we all want to keep.
A large keypoint as said earlier is to not have to rename upon obsoletion. So keep that in mind with the suggestions.
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This topic has been one we were discussing for a while now over IRC. I also highlighted several issues with our current system in one of my recent judgments. The staff has reached a consensus over IRC.
1) The most important point is to give labels which properly define what the run is about. If the labeling needs to be edited upon obsoletion, it shows it was not defined correctly in the first place. Specific numbering should be avoided unless it defines a maximum. In the case of minimums, new minimums may always be discovered, or other routes which shows the wrong tagging was used to define some sort of minimum.
2) All significant differentiators should be tagged where applicable. Even if this means every run for a game now has several tags. However, we should try to find the most meaningful and least arbitrary tags, so we don't end up using multiple tags to take the place of a more generic but precise singular tag. Tags which define avoiding normal gameplay do not need to have counter tags listed in other branches. Meaning, tag walkathon and pacifist, do not tag uses running and kills enemies. However, something like warps and forgoes warps should be tagged on both sets of applicable branches.
3) Sub-tagging is an option, and should be used. For example, regular unrelated tags on runs could be "warpless, pacifist". But where one is a subset of the other, use sub-tags: "low% - grappling hook", "low% - skeleton key".
4) Arbitrary code is now a primary tag which should be used on runs which make use of them, and always has a sub tag. Examples of sub-tags and possible cases they may be used:
Arbitrary code - Scene (Pi)
Arbitrary code - Game ending (Fast Super Mario World, Super Metroid, Battletoads)
Arbitrary code - Level ending (Other Battletoads run)
Arbitrary code - New game(s) (SMW Snake & Pong)
Arbitrary code - Adds cheats (aforementioned rejected SMW run)
Note the above sub-tag naming is examples and can be further tuned. The important point here is the concepts, the wording is not set in stone. Don't take these examples as any anything more than examples either.
5) Arbitrary code is a kind of exception where its counterparts which avoid Arbitrary code don't need to be labeled as such.
6) Further amendments to adjust the above will be made as needed, but they should work within the above framework, and not try to replace it with something else.
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Sir VG wrote:
I say give the MM5 star to MM7 just to anger Angerfist some more. :P
I'M KIDDING. MEGAMAN 7 SUCKS.
Have you seen the latest iteration of MM7 runs? They're extremely interesting compared to the previous.
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AzumaK wrote:
p.s. I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
How can you tell?
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For those interested in this topic and not on IRC last night or today:
Technical:
<Ilari> Nach: There are places in site code that depend on vote options and option ordering... Would have to be patched.
<Nach> Ilari: I didn't say we have to use the options I laid out here :P
<Nach> I'm trying to explain the system better, using visual aids
<Nach> If this is in fact the route we need to go down, we'll nail down something more precise and worry about it then
<Ilari> Nach: Well, I suppose with a couple of messy JOIN statements it would be possible to swap any two vote entries for submissions in the DB.
<Ilari> Nach: Dunno if the relevant cross table is set to FOREIGN KEY ON UPDATE CASCADE (that would be helpful as then one only had to swap the vote texts and votes would follow).
<Nach> Ilari: phpBB doesn't support images in polling options :P
<Ilari> Also, the relevant table doesn't even have any FOREIGN KEYs.
Conceptual:
<Nach> Ilari: If we were to use images, I'd also like if we had multiple sets expressing the same idea, and pick one randomly for each submission
<Nach> Like have Super Caped Mario flying, Wario just staring at a blank screen, and Mario sleeping in bed
<Ilari> Nach: Statically for each submission or rotating even for same submission?
<Nach> Ilari: I was thinking the former, but now that you mention the latter, it may be worthwhile
<Nach> and I already have the code in my avatar generator for the latter
<Ilari> Nach: Could be fun if the texts changed with the images.
<Nach> !
<Nach> :D
<Ilari> Nach: E.g. if the meh character is not a slob, probably better not to have slob in the text. :->
<Nach> Ilari: indeed
<Ilari> I suppose one doesn't get a good imageset out of Jazz Jackrabbit... :-)
<Nach> if it did, we could use it
<Nach> also, we should try to aim for recognizable characters
<Nach> JJ was an icon in the DOS world
<Nach> not so sure about nowadays
<Ilari> Or perhaps there is something on Jazz Jackrabbit 2...
<Nach> Ilari: Unfortunately, I can't think of anything good Mega Man based either
<Nach> sure there's some fat pathetic looking bosses, but even those have and edge about them. And what to do about boring?
<Ilari> SSM is probably too obscure (for yes)...
<Nach> SSM?
<Ilari> Super Shadow Man.
<Ilari> IIRC, 112HP(!), no proper vulnerabilities and at least one one-hit-kill(!) attack.
<Ilari> Nach: And I know really pathetic Mega Man bosses, but unfortunately one must play the relevant games to know those are pathetic.
<Nach> Ilari: Toad Man?
<Ilari> Nach: That's one example.
<Ilari> Nach: (Not the Toad Man from RM4MI, that one is actual threat). But Toad Man from MM4 / MMIV.
<Nach> yeah, he was an utter pushover
<Nach> I'd use Sunstar as an example for awesome, but again, not so well known
<Ilari> Well, I would know one for boring (but it is WAY too obscure reference)...
<Nach> Ilari: Chrono Trigger has some good imagery
<Nach> Chrono performing Luminare, Chrono drinking, Chrono sleeping
Later:
<Mothrayas> Nach: so how's the pretty-much-trolling-Warp thing going?
<Nach> Mothrayas: the "pretty-much-trolling-Warp thing" actually led to some interesting insights that we may use to improve polls
<Nach> Mothrayas: Ilari and I were discussing last night some ways to make the poll clearer, and also more fun
<Mothrayas> Nach: and what'd you conclude?
<Nach> Mothrayas: well, we discussed offering eye catching imagery randomly from different games appearing in the polls, with more fun wording
<Nach> Mothrayas: However, Warp does raise a good point, and as I said in the thread, perhaps the "no" option should be split into two kinds of "no"s
<Spikestuff> Nach: I want meh to stay
<Spikestuff> please
<Spikestuff> please master nach
<Nach> Spikestuff: You don't like the fat slob option?
<Spikestuff> I like the fat slob option
<Nach> Spikestuff: that's the equivalent of "meh"
<Spikestuff> I like voting No, when it's a tas that can be improved
* Spikestuff wanting to complicating it for users
<Spikestuff> mwahahahaha
<Mothrayas> I like the option of submitting "what if" thoughts to fanfiction.net
<Nach> ha
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Warp wrote:
I was talking about you not respecting my opinion on this issue
You're right, I don't, because as I described above you're not verifying you even understand the point in the poll as it currently exists. I just keep hearing I like my soapbox.
Warp wrote:
(I'm a user of the website as anybody else, and it should have been quite clear I was referring to myself.)
Okay, I must've missed that, I viewed your statements as referring to the topic at hand, voting on submissions. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding.
Warp wrote:
Instead you twist what I say
Or perhaps I'm taking what you say to (what I find to be) it's logical conclusion.
Warp wrote:
you build straw men, and you make childish remarks like "Oh, I wholeheartedly agree! You stubbornly want to..." when I was talking about you being stubborn.
Yes that was your intent, however I'm trying to hold up a mirror here (albeit a magnifying mirror). I'm not trying to be stubborn, I highlighted what is wrong with your suggestions, and I offered multiple alternate poll choices above which should better highlight the current situation to truly meet a compromise which addresses all the issues, instead of only the ones you seem to be highlighting, all of which you repeatedly ignored and failed to address. You can't even pay me or the other members here the courtesy of commenting on alternatives you didn't yourself suggest, or have a point for point discussion.
Warp wrote:
And now you have made this ridiculous "poll" that seems to be nothing more than mockery.
You're right, it is mockery. If you're not willing to discuss the heart of the issues, but instead cling to some idealistic notions and issues of personal self esteem, I will continue to mock.
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Warp wrote:
given the level of respect and understanding you are showing to a user's opinion.
Right, I don't respect users enough to devolve their opinions to a mere number. It must be a wonder that I even allow users to discuss submissions with a unique thread dedicated to each and every one. :eyeroll:
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Warp wrote:
Your line of thought is that viewers should be making that determination, and the judges should just follow the majority
Nowhere did I say anything like that.
"Give the people the option to express their opinion on what they want to" != "judges should just follow the majority".
No you didn't, nor did I say you said it. The ultimate conclusion of your line of thought however is that everyone should be their own armchair judge, and drop the judging system altogether.
Warp wrote:
You keep repeating that a "should not be published" vote would be "useless". I do not think so.
That's wonderful! It's also why we haven't made you a judge.
Warp wrote:
It would be the only natural thing for people to vote if they see a problem with the submission, and it can give information to a judge and to other people at a quick glance. What exactly is the harm in providing this option? I just can't see it.
Maybe they should also be voting "yes" if they like the color green? Or any other idea you're trying to shove into an unrelated poll.
The harm in providing it the way you're suggesting is that the author and the judge no longer knows if the audience is finding the run entertaining or not. Say there was a problem, and one level needs redoing, is the run entertaining enough that the author should even bother redoing part of it?
The natural thing to do if there is a problem is to SPELL OUT WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS. This way people will know objectively there is an issue. Putting it into a poll only indicates that subjectively there may be a problem, and the judge and author will not have the slightest clue what that is. Maybe the discussion in the thread will also show that your supposed problems with the run in fact aren't.
If you truly wanted to offer a compromise, you wouldn't stubbornly (your words, not mine) be suggesting what you currently are, rather you'd instead be suggesting:
Thoughts on the run?
[ ] Loved it.
[ ] Not crazy about it.
[ ] This should be rejected, AND I found it boring.
[ ] This run should be rejected for reasons I will elaborate on, however I still found it entertaining.
Note that crucial last option that gets utterly lost in what you're trying to do here.
Warp wrote:
Bobo the King wrote:
Do we really need to have this argument every few months?
The very fact that the subject regularly comes up is an indication that the poll does not fully reflect what people want to vote.
Or perhaps it indicates the poll's contribution to the process is unclear.
Warp wrote:
I honestly cannot comprehend what the problem would be if the users would be given the option to vote what they want to vote.
You're right, let's also allow them to vote for favorite color, favorite breakfast cereal, favorite in-game character, favorite boss, and all the other multiple things they would want to vote on, if only given the option to do so.
If you were an American, I'm sure you'd also want to vote on state Senators for states you don't live in, because you know, you have an opinion, and you want to be able to vote on it. Heck, you probably want to vote on them now from Finland, because we all share this same planet, and there's no reason the people of earth shouldn't have a full say in what goes on in it. Maybe you should petition your local government to add options to your voting system, as well as clarify the existing candidate choices to indicate which option will lead to the situation abroad that you prefer?
Warp wrote:
The only option given currently, if voting "yes" or "no" feels awkward (as I described earlier) is to abstain from voting
As you should when it feels awkward to make such a decision.
Warp wrote:
I really have come to the conclusion that this has become a question of pure stubbornness.
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree! You stubbornly want to subvert the polling system to perform a function other than the one that it does. If you'd be willing to try to understand and accept the function it currently provides, I may even entertain some of your ideas on how we can make it clearer, or even introduce a new kind of poll altogether. However, instead, I just keep seeing you want to somehow turn something best elaborated on in detail, and shove it into something unrelated, because you like your voice being heard, and feel some massive oversimplification down into some numbers in a statistic is a better means to get people to listen to you than to express them in exquisite detail. In fact, I'll go edit this thread to add a poll, so if you prefer, you can vote instead of having a meaningful conversation about it
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Warp wrote:
None of your arguments presented any rational reason against my suggested voting options.
It seems like you don't understand what I'm saying.
Warp wrote:
The options I suggested provide the best of both worlds: You want the votes to express if the submission should go to the vault or the moons. It does.
No, that's not what I want.
There's a lot of criteria to determine what happens to a run. Judges will process all the relevant data, of which entertainment feedback is only a single factor in the decision. Your line of thought is that viewers should be making that determination, and the judges should just follow the majority, which is not the way we handle things. If we were to handle things that way, there's no point in judging at all.
Judges need to know how viewers reacted to the entertainment level of the run, not what viewers think is the best way to handle it. In your system, viewers may decide for reasons other than entertainment, meaning they can and will use their layman's viewpoint on how the run meets various qualifications for their vote.
Warp wrote:
People want to be able to express if the submission ought to be published or not. It allows doing that. I don't see any rational argument from you against those options.
Such information is not helpful for the judges. If people want to express that idea, they're free to elsewhere.
Warp wrote:
At this point it seems to me that this whole issue is more a question of stubbornness than pragmatism. You won't budge because... I don't even know. Just because.
Let me simplify your options for you:
What would you do if you were the judge?
[ ] Publish to a top tier
[ ] Publish to the vault
[ ] Reject
As I said above, we're not interested in armchair judging. If you like the above poll, please submit your what if thoughts to FanFiction.
However, perhaps our poll indeed is not clear enough. Would the following be clearer?
To what extent were you entertained by this movie?
[ ] It was awesome!
[ ] Eh, I'm a fat slob who will watch anything.
[ ] Utter snoozer.
This is the poll that will help the judges, and the imagery and wording is more eye-catching.
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Warp wrote:
I'm trying to express that since the poll exists, it would be most useful as a tool for people to express what they want to express with it.
But judges are not interested in hearing what you think viewers are trying to express with it.
Warp wrote:
In the past the "no" option has always been a very strong indication that there's a problem with the submission.
If you want to provide a strong indication, express it in a post, so everyone can see what's wrong. Then you might even influence it to even the highly valued rejected state. You'll also get others to react to your feelings and get a more in-depth discussion and review going.
Warp wrote:
A large number of "no" votes ought to draw attention to this fact at a quick glance.
Really? Maybe it should draw attention to it being a shoe-in for vault?
Warp wrote:
This ought to be useful even for a judge: When they see that there are lots of "no" votes, this will quickly give them information that there might be a problem.
If there really is a problem, then a lot of no votes is useless for a judge, unless they also happen to notice the problem themselves. Hopefully they will, but judges aren't perfect, and may be less familiar with the game than other viewers are.
Warp wrote:
The usefulness of the "no" vote has been largely devalued, for no good reason.
Or perhaps you were placing too much stock in it in the first place.
Warp wrote:
I have suggested this compromise before, and I'm suggesting it again: Change the options to (something equivalent of):
- Liked it, and it's ok for publication.
- Didn't like it, but it's nevertheless ok for publication.
- Not ok for publication (explain in comments why.)
That looks a lot like armchair judging to me. If that's what the viewer wants to do, please take your thoughts to Twitter or some other place equally useless.
In order to appease you, perhaps we should offer "Should this movie be accepted?" as a second set of polls for each submission as alec kermit suggested. When you vote for this secondary poll, instead of the results being displayed here, it'll automatically post on your Twitter page: "I do not want TAS ___ published."
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I would like to say though CoolKirby, that many of your publication descriptionsexpansions are pretty good, and greatly appreciated!
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Warp wrote:
There are two things with the current voting system: What the admins would want it to mean, and what actually people use it for.
I determine what people are using it for on a submission by submission basis. If I see the posts' general conclusions are reflective of the poll, and the discussion is primarily about it's eligibility and position, I'll ignore the poll entirely.
I'm not sure what you're trying to express though. The point of the poll is to be close to moot, the discussions and judge expertise are what is important. If the poll was for whether one is of the opinion it should be published or not, then it'd always be ignored. In any case, most of the time, the poll is in the right ballpark for people's entertainment feelings. Changing the poll would just make it more useless.
So third time to fix something that isn't broken? If we wanted to handle judgment process with the polls, then we wouldn't even bother with judges, and just tie it all up in an automated system which goes live after enough users filled out a complex form.
Edit:
To put this differently, if you want to talk about how you were entertained by the run, I'll pay close attention, if you want to take rulings upon yourself, I'll ignore you, unless you're also a judge.
If you want to make an impact, discuss in the thread what you liked or disliked about a run. Also point out issues you noticed, and how it fits in with the rest of the site, but don't use it as a soapbox to be your own armchair judge.
People like Derakon are very helpful in commenting on many runs with terrific feedback. Warp, you're pretty good too for the few submissions that are graced by your presence.
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Radiant wrote:
It's important to note that this run got rejected over poor viewer response
If that's the case, you're asking for a more optimized and exciting version of this run to be submitted.
Radiant wrote:
So it's not necessary for the branch to exclude this run.
I rejected the entire branch.
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CoolKirby wrote:
It's wonderful to see people discussing the slower run's branch name!
I like how amaurea spelled out what the published "11 exits" run does:
amaurea wrote:
finish the game using the normal shortest route - the 11 exit path
How about something like "shortest intended route" or "shortest normal path" to convey that it follows the fastest route to Bowser intended by the game's developers?
You might want to see the novel in the submission post to get a grasp on path possibilities, how it relates to other games, and ideas on naming.
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feos wrote:
"Obsolete specified branch." is ok, now let it count how many users think this one is more entertaining than that one.
23% of 125 weighted users, using a COCOMO model calculating how the representation group would feel about options they didn't realize they weren't offered.
Which in my math is 28.75 users.
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Mothrayas wrote:
I wouldn't trust any of the voting results.
I wouldn't either.
Mothrayas wrote:
Hopefully people could tell that my vote/post was too sarcastic to be a proper vote.
I could tell, but plenty of people can't. Once I bizarrely handle this one (hopefully in a way nobody was expecting), you know someone is going to come here complaining about how it goes against whatever the vote says at the time, or certain comments for or against.
So it's good to see people saying not to trust anything. This allows me to ignore whatever is said, and use my own bias to determine.
So yeah, if I move this run to pro only or something like that, don't come crying back.
Edit:
The Nach control panel should currently be something like:
User Votes:
[12%] Accept as new branch.
[23%] Obsolete specified branch.
[03%] Obsolete a different branch than the one specified.
[19%] Double-obsoletion.
[16%] Reject this sucker.
[27%] Publish on TASVideos Pro instead.
In the case of double-obsoletion, it would have to obsolete [1944] SNES Super Mario World "warps" by bahamete, kaizoman666, Mister & PangaeaPanga in 09:57.82 and [2513] SNES Super Mario World "arbitrary code execution" by Masterjun in 02:25.19.
Edit 2:
I was advised to use this run to obsolete the run(s) on SDA. I'll consider it. Thank you.
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Warepire wrote:
I should point out that my yes vote was in the spirit of April Fools, so it shall not count.
Thank you for your candor, retraction, and clarification.
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Bobo the King wrote:
Nach wrote:
Actually, we just published that.
It's a very impressive movie.
You published that...
Actually, Mothrayas and Ilari published that.
Bobo the King wrote:
... on a different branch.
On the primary Metroid branch.
However, the 100% Metroid branch still exists on its own, and for good reason.
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Patashu wrote:
no one would be impressed by a super metroid ACE TAS that gets 100% by editing all the items in!
Actually, we just published that.
It's a very impressive movie.
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Kurabupengin wrote:
It was just a joke!
One man's joke is another man's inspiration.
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jaysmad wrote:
What!? The smb pic was real?
Yet, it is real.
jaysmad wrote:
How the heck did Bowser get there?
Guess now you're wanting to join pro, huh?
jaysmad wrote:
And why does it say level 1-1?
Because it is.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
AngerFist wrote:
Kurabupengin, this is Nach on April 1:
That's very insulting. I have my ruggedly handsome looks every day of the year, not just April 1.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Several of the times are also quite more reasonable than you might think.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
CoolKirby wrote:
Photoshopped screenshots
I find this insulting. I don't even have Photoshop. Every single screenshot I took was from an emulator screenshot function, and the only processing done to it was image compression.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
It was awesome!
[ ] 
Eh, I'm a fat slob who will watch anything.
[ ] 
Utter snoozer.
This is the poll that will help the judges, and the imagery and wording is more eye-catching.
