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nymx
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LGR...just letting you know that I have been trying to get in touch with you. Can you look me up on discord? There are some things that I wish to discuss with you about this run.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Alright, I have been reviewing the findings from DrD2k9 and I'm surprised that this game has mechanics that are more exploitable than I originally thought. Now that I understand what he found, I was able to further the improvements on the first Stage by 8 frames. At this point, I'm beginning to see some tricks that allow me to make this kind of optimization possible. I will try and commit to 1 stage a day. This means it will be ready in just over a week.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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I've tried to reach out to you privately, so I thought to try here. Can you check you PMs?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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DrD2k9 wrote:
Just as a note: while this is (rightfully) labeled as a “pacifist” run, it’s also a valid any% run as manipulating the enemies to kill each other is going to be faster than maneuvering around to shoot those same enemies (assuming the round duration is based on number of kills and not a set time). nymx can correct me if I’m wrong on that point.
You are right, there is a certain amount of kills each round. That number increases by 3 on each increment.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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I'm not surprised at this, but DrD2k9 has found ways to improve this TAS. His ideas have surprised me, as this game isn't exactly straight forward. Also, this game presents some odd behavior that nether of us have answers to. As with all my TASes, I don't want to leave anything behind. So we will be trying to figure this out. He will be added to this submission as a co-author, since he has found 147 frames. So we are going to collaborate through another run-through.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Technoturnovers wrote:
My workflow is as follows: I stay in pause and record mode, focusing the main emulator window, and holding down the desired game inputs using my ordinary binds and hitting frame advance to record them. When I need to go back and rerecord, or edit multiple different inputs in bulk, I go back to the TAStudio window and use the piano roll for finer control than merely using the load branch/savestate hotkey does. My workflow is already very optimized, and changing it isn't terribly relevant for the purposes of RNG manipulation in this game.
Ok, this helps out a great deal. Thank you.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Ok...we have some synchronization issues to resolve here. Spikestuff is still showing some early cuts that need to be discussed between the two of you. In addition, Pepper is also finding more cuts in another branch that doesn't contain these improvements. Here is where we are getting out of sync. This needs to be talked out...If there is going to be any co-authorship here. My suggestion, we need to set a "Base Line" of the inputs (in this case, Spikestuff's inputs) and agree on the movie together up to a certain point so that the remainder of the movie can be further optimized.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Technoturnovers wrote:
nymx wrote:
Got a question for you Technoturnovers. I've studied your inputs and it appears you are recording with a controller. Is this correct? If so...this can explain the reason why you are not able to easily manipulate the game's RNG.
I am not recording with a controller, I am recording with the keyboard. And effectively every keyboard button on the ZX Spectrum does something in this game due to its antiquated, spread-out control scheme, so I'm not able to use non-input keys to manipulate RNG even if the game polled such non-input keys for the seed to begin with. See also EZGames69's recording, which uses basically the same amount of keys as mine.
Ok, so you are using the "TAS Studio Editor"?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Got a question for you Technoturnovers. I've studied your inputs and it appears you are recording with a controller. Is this correct? If so...this can explain the reason why you are not able to easily manipulate the game's RNG.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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I want to be clear on my position. There has been no response to Spikestuff, in this thread, for a week. If there is no response to my request, I will not be accepting this submission. Please respond to my earlier request and bring any conversations, that you may have had with Spikestuff, to this thread for my review. Thanks.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Wow...all I can say, is that this is truly the year of Action 52!
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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I've noticed on the previous submission that Spikestuff has helped out in this run. I was going to check to see if those inputs were still in use here, but I see that fsvgm777 has confirmed it. Thanks for doing that. I've made this mistake in the past, but it certainly wasn't done on purpose. So, I am going to extend the opportunity for Pepper-Color to work this out with Spikestuff for the following reason: *The first 5180 frames were created by Spikestuff and reused in this submission *Inputs after 5180 may not be agreeable to both parties. (I think this is also a concern to Spikestuff) *Maybe Spikestuff would rather be credited in the submission text and not as co-author So please reach out to Spikestuff and respond with your final agreements in this discussion thread. If I don't hear anything, then this submission will eventually be placed in a "Delayed" status until addressed.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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DigitalDuck wrote:
Technoturnovers wrote:
I tried the first stage again, forcing center fuel spawns, and I didn't gain any time. hhhhhhhhhhhhhurrrrrrgh. I literally entered the rocket at the exact same frame as I did in the current submission. EDIT: To elaborate, a lot of that was because of bad enemy spawns, which are another RNG-based frustration, except this time I don't even know when the roll occurs for selecting the spawn location. The fastest route from the middle fuel spawn to the rocket has you go directly through a location where recently-spawned enemies will also be passing through, with absolutely no clearance to either side of them and forcing you to piss away time by waiting a hovering. The longer routes I take in the current submission actually allow me to largely avoid this issue, because I have MUCH more flexibility with where I choose to drop in to the lower part of the stage and being able to actually shoot enemies.
So I've taken a quick look at the game and I think this is the relevant code, starting from $6614 :
ld a,($5dcc)
cpl
and $0f
ret nz
ldir
call $65db
ld ($5d39),a
ret
This bit of code runs only in the period between one block of fuel being added and the next spawning. $5dcc appears to be the game timer, so it looks like fuel can only spawn every 16 ticks. It then calls a function at $65db and stores the value in $5d39; it looks like $5d39 is the fuel x-position. So let's look at the code at $65db:
ld hl,$65e9
ld a,($5dce)
and $0f
ld c,a
ld b,$00
add hl,bc
ld a,(hl)
ret
This is indexing into the array at $65e9, which contains the following values: 8, 32, 40, 48, 56, 64, 88, 96, 120, 128, 136, 192, 224, 8, 120, 128 These look like the possible drop positions. They seem to be placed so they don't land on the very edge of a platform, or anywhere near the rocket. 136 appears to be the optimal position, but I don't think you'd lose any time on 128 because there's a 16-tick rule in place anyway. The index is determined by the last four bits of $5dce, which is the random number we're looking for. This number is also rolled by enemies spawning and generally existing so it's not going to be very controllable, but the smoke effect when you first launch into the air also rolls this, as well as explosions caused by killing enemies, and shooting in general without hitting anything. If you set up a watch on these places (for BizHawk and +2A you'll want BANK 5 and subtract 0x4000 from all of these - e.g. the fuel x-position is 0x1D39) it should help things go a bit faster. I'm not great at making efficient scripts but this should be enough to go on for someone who wants to take on that task.
This is excellent! Hopefully this can be helpful to Techno...I really want to see this submission succeed.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Technoturnovers wrote:
nymx wrote:
Ok...that helps. Please remember, this submission can be put on delayed. I would like to see this through. If you don't mind, please take a few weeks and see what you can do. I find that taking a segment of a game each day helps in keeping up the motivation. Perhaps a stage a day? So are we in agreement for setting this to "Delayed'?
Well, see, that really does depend on the level of improvement that you want to see- because over 2000 rerecords in a single day is kind of a LOT, even for me. I could optimize Stage 1 to the level apparent in EZGames69's recording, and that would technically bring the entire recording up to known peak play since that level of RNG manip has only ever been demonstrated for, well, Stage 1. But if I seriously wanted to break the fuck out of this game, then I need scripting to do that, and the total lack of memory watch address for the fuel's current X-position is a major, MAJOR obstacle. If I did have memory watch and probably some more help from people more experienced in Lua scripting, then I could write a script that, between each fuelling, would thrust up and randomly spam left/right and reload the branch until the fuel spawns between a given desired range and by a certain desired deadline, but that's all contingent on me A: figuring out the memory address and B: successfully writing such a script.
Ok. Well...we are not expecting perfection, but we can certainly work with you on this. How about this? Can you at least try the first stage and report back? If it looks much better, then we can decide on continuing.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Technoturnovers wrote:
nymx wrote:
So here is what I would like to do. Technoturnovers, can you please explain your methods of controlling RNG? This will help me to identify how much time it would require to redo any work.
Since I lack any relevant memory watch or prior reverse engineering effort, my RNG manipulation takes the form of randomly spamming all available controls (left, right, thrust, hover, and fire) between the last fuel entering the rocket and the next one actually spawning. This is visible as me constantly changing directions while I'm flying. Most of the time, I'm successful in getting the fuel to spawn closer than it would have otherwise with a dozen or couple dozen attempts; sometimes, this doesn't work out and it takes even longer, sometimes it REALLY doesn't work out and I end up needing to change my actual trajectory on my route outright. And I'm effectively never able to guarantee instant fuel spawns, and the required movements would probably end up wasting away that timesave anyways. For reference, EZGames69's honestly jaw-dropping first screen recording encompasses over two THOUSAND rerecords, I can only assume all done manually rather than with the help of a script. He says that he lost motivation to work on the project after that, and I can really only say, yeah, no shit lmfao, how did you even get that far in the first place? So, if I end up getting rejected because of this, I honestly won't even be mad, it just is what it is really. But I'm not putting over 2000 rerecords solely into RNG manipulation for each individual screen of this game, because I value my sanity (ignore the fact that I TASed SMB Special).
Ok...that helps. Please remember, this submission can be put on delayed. I would like to see this through. If you don't mind, please take a few weeks and see what you can do. I find that taking a segment of a game each day helps in keeping up the motivation. Perhaps a stage a day? So are we in agreement for setting this to "Delayed'?
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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DigitalDuck wrote:
nymx wrote:
Also, for ending input early...I do see that manipulating the last fuel object, to drop directly over the rocket should be performed. This should save a good chunk of frames. Additionally, if RNG is controlled better...you might get more than one fuel object to drop directly over the rocket without having to do any extra inputs. This would be even more impressive.
If I remember rightly, fuel can't fall directly onto the rocket, it has to be touched and dropped by Jetman to count; in addition, you do have to enter the rocket at the end of every level, and since the last level's enemies home in on you, you can't just stand outside the rocket and wait.
Ok...this is fair. I went back to check the "Casual" play that I've been using to see the differences between TAS and RTA. I think what I was seeing was an illusion, where the fuel was being dragged over and dropped...giving the appearance of falling from that location.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Ok...so I have finally sat down to start looking at this submission. My normal approach is to avoid looking at the discussion thread, until I make my own analysis. I do this so that my review will not be tainted by others. Now that I have made my own assessment, I do see concerns. These concerns were validated by EZGanes69's effort. It is obvious that RNG manipulation is painful here and that some games are going to require a level of effort that others don't. So here is what I would like to do. Technoturnovers, can you please explain your methods of controlling RNG? This will help me to identify how much time it would require to redo any work. Also, for ending input early...I do see that manipulating the last fuel object, to drop directly over the rocket should be performed. This should save a good chunk of frames. Additionally, if RNG is controlled better...you might get more than one fuel object to drop directly over the rocket without having to do any extra inputs. This would be even more impressive. As it stands, these optimization errors are enough to reject this submission; however, I do not want to put you through that. If you want to take a bit more time to get this right, please do and I can set the submission to "Delayed". On the other hand you have the option to "Cancel" this yourself...but I would try and improve it before you take that route. I do believe this is a run that is worth putting time in and I'm willing to wait. Just let me know how you want to proceed. Thanks!
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Dimon12321 wrote:
Oh, Gee! I was pretty much satisfied even with the former result. It was just an idea that hit me. Don't overwork yourself
LOL. Thanks. I'm not perfect by any means, but I don't want to leave any frame behind...especially when its obvious. Just had to rethink this over to figure out. :)
Patashu wrote:
Nice, the new idea is really clean! I can see this is the kind of thing that you can lose sleep over (I've been in similiar situations), so take a break when you're satisfied. Anyone else can try to improve it if they feel the urge to.
Currently, I have no job...so all i do is TAS all day long. :(
feos wrote:
Wow this was smart!
:) Thanks boss!
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Dimon12321 wrote:
I've never seen a snake game where the prey actually moves. Maybe some improvement can be found at the end to unblock the last hole and catch more mice instead of doing space reservations like there's no time limit. Nevertheless, Yes vote
Well, it took two days...but I think you'll like the result this time.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Dimon12321 wrote:
I've never seen a snake game where the prey actually moves. Maybe some improvement can be found at the end to unblock the last hole and catch more mice instead of doing space reservations like there's no time limit. Nevertheless, Yes vote
I tried..but can't get it to end on a higher score. I'm not saying that it cant be done...I just don't know what I can do to make it happen. I didn't realize that this game was going to get so much attention. Maybe I can try another run through. Surely there can't be much more though...there is not that much space left to work with.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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GJTASer2018 wrote:
I was really expecting you would be able to completely cover the arena before the timer ran out, but oh well... Yes vote anyway! :)
Your comment made me go back and try to find more. LOL I have found 1470 more points. The snake is much longer and there is a new encode for you to watch. Its close, but not completely filled.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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GJTASer2018 wrote:
I was really expecting you would be able to completely cover the arena before the timer ran out, but oh well... Yes vote anyway! :)
To be honest, I was thinking that would have happened. The RNG in this game is controlled by a conditional situation, which I see that its just better to deal with what you are given. If I were able to control it, I think it would have quickly filled the screen.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
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Patashu wrote:
Extremely interesting! I love how by necessity your strategy evolves over time just due to the snake being longer, and the potential for food spawning optimization gives it a delicious flavour (pun intended). What a clever take on Snake.
Yeah, that strategy didn't come until a few days ago...and that's when everything started accelerating.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Skilled player (1727)
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 846
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Napoleon, I am having to do a lot of research on figuring out what to do with this TAS. The optimization is not what I'm concerned with, but how it will be treated along-side any other future submissions. If you could, please reach out to me so that we can discuss some details.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
nymx
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Judge, Published Author, Skilled player (1727)
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 846
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
Ok...so it is a timer. They show up every 1180 frames.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
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