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Voting for posts (+/-) would be great. As I suggested earlier, this option must only be allowed for higher than newbies to be perfectly reliable. And visually it must somehow display whether a post is heavily plused, or heavily minused. And something can in future be based on "post sanity" per user.
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A movie must use known tricks. Otherwise: imagine someone obsoletes an old movie by a second, and we ignore timesavers it missed and accept it (due to being faster by raw numbers). Then the other week another 1-second improvement is submitted. We accept it too. And so on. One would be able to drawl really improving movies for years. To avoid such spam of small improvements, we require the movie to use all known tricks. Sometimes some of them are still missed, but it's another story when known improvements are considered not worth redoing - it is when a run is overall optimal, and of a very high quality.
When it's overall suboptimal (too much known improvements), we won't publish it even it is an improvement.
#4041: McBobX's Genesis Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog in 14:09.43
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Masterjun wrote:
Since when did my SMW and SMW2 movies that glitch to credits corrupt memory?
It inherited the previous movie's class.
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@Nach
Thank yourself for raising the issue bothering you. I don't see anyone else wanting to take it seriously.
What is obvious to me is that you love to mix every type of concept into one pot and pretend they must be structured with subordination, while the initial goal and the result of each is different. You spend so many words on that matter that I can say they make no difference to you at all. And with that, you try to expand your vision even by using personal derps (you are referring to "shirking responsibility" on my side, while I can't really recall any cases of that).
Raw numbers and an argument out of silence does not justify completely ignoring that the movies are identical.
You seem to have lost the borders of "complete ignore". I will remind you the case here. Movies ARE similar in cerеain ways. It was noted. It was not ignored. It just was not exaggerated up to the point of obsoletion. Now you come and call it "complete ignore", lol.
I'm not replying to you on that matter anymore, I'd like to see the others' opinion.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I didn't claim that no similarity was noticed by the audience. I said that it was not enough for obsoletion. Because when it is, you have MOST of the posters mention it (as they do when a submission is not entertaining at all, or obviously suboptimal). 3 out of 116 is just nothing at all.
Nach wrote:
As the judge for this movie, you're responsible for determining whether to accept this movie at all (the votes help for that), and if so, how to accept this movie. Whether the current publication already obsoletes this run, or this run obsoletes the other is part of your responsibility.
If you want more feedback from people other than a fellow judge, ask for it, don't close your eyes claiming 115 votes allow you to shirk responsibility or not consider whether two movies are indeed identical or not, or ignore several posts which claim this is the same just because the payload is awesome.
Are you saying that I as a judge am unable to determine the solution without constantly imposing factors no one thought of? Did you miss the part where I use to post my possible solution before applying it? Do you indeed think that:
we must have every one who posted tell us how optimal it is to have a right to accept it.
? Am I shirking the open discussion? No. We here are figuring out the solution together. It's not Vault where it either is the fastest or isn't.
Now it looks like you are seriously insisting on this run obsoleting any%. Are you? That "don't close your eyes claiming 115 votes allow you to shirk responsibility" part looked like you won't stop before any victims doing it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Oh, then you may use the easier method, offered by all of these:
- ArtMoney
- MemoryHackingSoftware
- Cheat Engine
Affect the value you need and then search for address that changed accordingly.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Mitjitsu wrote:
If someone was to do an Arbitrary Code Execution TAS on this game in the future. What would count as obsoleting this TAS?
Better programming of the payload.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
Since no one seems to have commented on the differences between them, I don't know why you're saying "all these people" *feel* they are.
Oh God. When a movie is submitted and no one comes up with improvements, does it mean we should consider it optimal? By your logic, no. By your logic, we must have every one who posted tell us how optimal it is to have a right to accept it.
By my logic, if no one of the 115 voters noticed the similarity to the any% run, it kind of means that there is enough difference.
Nach wrote:
the only thing we should be considering is the movie till the point of the payload
Where does it come from?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Nach wrote:
I have a hard time understanding your usage of the word redundant here.
Read the thread. Your suggestion on this movie's fate is redundant. As the previous one you made here appeared to be.
Nach wrote:
How are they different enough?
I don't know how they are different enough for all these people, but they feel they are.
Something tells me obsoletion obsession is a disease that strikes every year or so. "Obsolete something just because we always used to!" There is a Moons tier. Movies that people consider different enough get published alongside. Movies that are considered similar obsolete one another.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Is anyone even talking about it? Are you suggesting it?
I thought this point was obvious. Have you watched the two side by side? Having both would be rather redundant.
Obsoleting "fastest ending" branch by "showcase total control", that's redundant. And in Moons and higher it works like this: "Are 2 runs considered similar by the audience, one of them being better?" I don't see a single post considering they are so similar one needs to be obsoleted. Guess why? Because they are different enough.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Is anyone even talking about it? Are you suggesting it?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Warp wrote:
As I commented in the other thread, I think that very high standards of quality and notability should be imposed on any submission aimed for this tier, in order to avoid it being flooded with random stuff, devaluing its purpose.
Why didn't you suggest any?
Also, I don't think standards need to be nearly impossible to satisfy. It's not a Star tier. It's just a branch to store TAS-ish achievements. We don't need to tell what only makes sense to publish there, we need to describe what doesn't. And not per each movie, but in common. So that then we could productively discuss which movies don't fall into that nonsense. Most april fool's submissions do: fastest crash or fastest death is only april fool worthy, because it's just silly.
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Is that game emulated in MAME? If it is, it's the choice for disassembly. But disasm tools there are still not easy to use.
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Hmm, looks like the audience doesn't share the feeling that it should have been done better, like, at all! Which is going to end up as a decision like this: "Accepting as "Executes arbitrary code" category. In order to obsolete this movie one would need to program something better." Or whatever requirement will it meet for the possible demo tier.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If we make "Executes arbitrary code" a class, it can be a branch "Ponies!!!" having "Pi!!!" as a neighbor, since both goals look interesting to me. They present different implementation of the same concept, each being an artistic choice.
Personman wrote:
I would vote against that NES Test run, though - there's really nothing technically impressive about it, and it's not very musically interesting either. In 2007 perhaps it was a neat trick but I think we've come a long way since then.
The value of that movie is that you will never see a run like that at TASVideos. It's absolutely worth knowing about. It does demonstrate a concept. And kind of introduces the trope to use in regular runs - creating music with various actions.
Personman wrote:
I'm not quite sure I'm ready to claim that we are "part of the demoscene"
We surely aren't, officially. But in fact I have nothing else to attribute us to. Well, we aren't showing impressive programming solutions too often, neither do we abuse hardware, but the overall approach is the same.
Personman wrote:
Certainly I wouldn't want us to put it forward as part of our initial bid for inclusion in a scene that produces things like this.
There's no need to be included anywhere. We just can provide enough impressive demos of our own approach. They need to be exclusively TAS-related, but not be actual standard TASes. Demo tier is needed because there is enough we can do that is:
- Still TAS-related
- Impressive
- Non-standard within the good old category system.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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Demo tier's aim is to prove that TASes are a part of Demoscene. Demoscene got its popularity due to various factors: pushing the target hardware to limits, doing things way better than expected, putting huge effort and knowledge into creation of demos, and they all are quite suitable for TASes too.
So it is expected that in Demo tier we could put impressive achievements that not just fit into it conceptually, but also deserve it rather than rejection (guefood delight). It's not to allow publishing SMB with game over before the final boss, or any type of sloppy play.
Criterias:
1. Technical achievement with uncertain entertainment value (may be high).
- Entirely/mostly bruteforced/botted runs [1][2].
- Runs that glitch to the ending [we all know our heroes].
- Tool showcases [1][2][3].
- Total control hacks [we all know our heroes].
2. Esoteric goals that are still worth having published.
- Playarounds?
- Minimal presses [1].
- Whatever shows up in the queue.
For each movie that's about to go to Demo tier, there must be a discussion on why it's worth it exclusively (unless some branches/classes go there by default).
Discuss!
All the above is only my own thoughts.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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I won't object, we need to know people's opinions on the entire situation to know how to treat submissions for the same branch.
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AngerFist: you pick one of options I mentioned above: reject any run that does things differently than this submission after games were programmed, right?
What would one need to do in order to obsolete it then?
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A TAS of a snake game alone? Really? Aiming for what, entertainment? Errr...... Speed? Um...
1. Snake run aiming for entertainment is expected to fill the entire screen. But once one manipulates all apples spawn before one's nose, it's not even close to when a human plays it in real time filling the whole screen. No for entertainment from me. Example.
2. Snake run aiming for speed implies there is an ending. The ending being whatever Masterjun programs. He may program it to be 4 blocks wide for example. There's no point in aiming for speed for games that can be reprogrammed the either way. And yeah, currently there's no way to beat the snake minigame. So I don't even see it acceptable for publication.
This TAS is so special because of the original goal: program a game inside SMW and TAS it. If this submission is accepted as is (I have no problems with that), anyone could still TAS the snake game inside the same movie, and we'd have no choice but to accept that as an improvement. Or reject that another submission because sloppy-ish play of a minigame is somehow better that tasing it (sounds odd considering our standards).
While if snake gets really tased now, one wouldn't be able to obsolete it only by improving the snake minigame. Only by programming something better. Which is our goal: do the best and let only what's better obsolete it.
PS: 3. I see no benefit in cutting this submission once minigames were programmed, since it won't conceptually differ from the "glitched ending" category.
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Then it must avoid the last apple only and die from something.
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Suddenly I'm requesting the snake minigame be played with better luck (apples every block) and snake filling the whole screen. Because without apples every frame it would take too much time.
What do you think?
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If it gets TASing with public WIPs and posts in a thread, the chance of not losing time at all would become way higher. We won't be seeing various people coming and telling how much time was lost.
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Cyber_Kun wrote:
While I agree that this is a massively important run for the TAS community, the run itself does not bring or show much new. The first Pokemon total control was huge. The improved Pi version was also quite nice, but at that point, the total control hacks reached the limit. Once you can program anything you want, what makes Snake more impressive than a Pi showcase?
This is on top of this run being the same run as before. While the memory corruption run was quite impressive, just seeing it again with a different ending is not.
The run is important, but I don't think it should considered better than it is because it is important.
Visually it's not something out of this world (even though many people consider it is), the main point of this movie is to make a playable game inside SMW. And with time limits this is what was possible to do visually. Both previous total control hacks were just streaming precoded demoscenish stuff.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
