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THE GLITCH USED IN THIS RUN REQUIRES A SAVEFILE WITH AN ALREADY-COMPLETE FILE ON ONE OF THE OTHER TWO FILES - DOWNLOAD THE SAVESTATE FOR THE RUN (place in same location as m64) AS WELL AS THIS COMPLETE SAVEFILE (place in mupen64 folder's "save" folder) OR THE RUN CAN'T BE PLAYED BACK ON MUPEN. FILES CAN BE GOTTEN HERE: https://files.tasvideos.org/common/SubmissionFiles/3831S/dkr-requiredfiles.zip

Emulator Information

Emulator: Mupen64 0.5
Plugins: Jabo 1.6 (video), TAS Input Plugin (input), Jabo 1.6 (audio), RSP (RSP)
For input, make sure that controller 2 is set to "active".

Run Information

This run beats Diddy Kong Racing by abusing a "wrong warp" glitch. It finishes the game in 2-player mode, after creating the file which will be finished in 1-player mode.
The desired effect is only possible on the 1.1 release of the USA version of the game. 1.0 and the Japanese version both crash when trying to do this.
The glitch happens because the game draws certain things from the tracks mode section of the game, such as the fact that Future Fun Land is open (and this is the case because a file on the cart has already been to FFL once), and using the wrong warp, transfers them over to the fresh file that's created at the start of the run. It's done by creating the new file, exiting it, starting up 2P mode, and going to Hot Top Volcano, where an out-of-bounds glitch can be used to reach a small loading zone by the finishing line which warps the player to the main arena, which normally is never accessible in 2P mode.
The out-of-bounds glitch is done by doing a barrel roll with a speed boost at certain parts of the lava. Once OoB, it's just a matter of locating the small loading zone.
At this point in the run, it's actually faster to play as player 2 to get to Future Fun Land, because he spawns closer to it than player 1 does. Inside the FFL lobby, player 1 is in a better spot. Since you're never meant to have a plane in here, the top of the door wasn't programmed in, meaning we can simply fly over it. The reason I grind very slightly against the right side of the door is because the loading zone for the race can be touched quicker from there.
The race itself has a long cutscene at the start because the game is in 2P mode, which looks like a softlock but isn't. Once the race starts, another out-of-bounds glitch is used to beat the level really quickly, at which point the game is over and the credits roll.
Drumstick is chosen over T.T. because he's faster than T.T. in the plane.

Additional Notes

This run starts from a savefile. It's the only way to do this kind of run, which could be considered "newgame+" or "glitched" or a combination of both. As it requires a completed file to do, it's also acceptable to have Drumstick and T.T. unlocked, which is handy because they're the fastest racers in the game. This is an acceptable category in the DKR speedrunning community due to the fact that the unlocked characters are part of the cart's saves, and not the individual files' saves.
With many thanks to Toufool31, Fasch, Stacy, 0xwas, and malkieriking for critiquing my WIPs and helping to break this game to the point it's at today.

Nahoc: Will judge...
Nahoc: Delaying until author or someone else provides a verification movie.
Nahoc: This is a great TAS, well-planned and optimized. Sadly, its situation ressembles the Stafy run. This game doesn't really deserve a NG+ category. All this TAS does (mainly according to ais523's post) is take the information of a secondary completed file and glitch to the final boss, which is cool, but doesn't warrant publication (not in the vault or moon tier). There is also the fact that the author didn't provide a verification movie, which goes against the publication rules and doesn't help judging the authenticity of this run.
I am looking forward to a new any% TAS of this game if you ever make one, though. Thanks for the submission!

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TASVideoAgent
They/Them
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Good run Swordless!
Dwedit
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Is there a verification movie for the initial save data?
RachelB
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Player (127)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Voting no for not following the rules. No way to know it's legit (as legit as a run that loads data from another save file can be, that is). Furthermore, it's not even very entertaining.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Dwedit wrote:
Is there a verification movie for the initial save data?
No.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
NitroGenesis
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Editor, Experienced player (551)
Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873
Well that was boring.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Patashu
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Is this route faster for the realtime speedrun?
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
ALAKTORN
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Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
I liked it, having followed DKR action recently, and was surprised by the fact that you can use the airplane (human speedruns were still doing it with a car last I checked) but this movie breaks the rules :\
Active player (490)
Joined: 1/12/2007
Posts: 682
To those wondering if this can be done in real-time: Yes, of course. The only reason it hasn't been til now is that we only recently discovered that it only works on the NTSC-U 1.1 version (all other versions crash, and most NTSC-U copies are 1.0). The other method does a similar glitch in 1P mode, and uses T.T. to boost the player over to the Wizpig door, but that method is a lot slower than the one used here.
Editor, Experienced player (852)
Joined: 8/12/2008
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Damn, was gonna TAS this today.............. I'll watch shortly.
Active player (306)
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Sorry, I won't watch it if there is no verification movie file for the save data.
Guga
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No shitstorm? :(
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Why isn't there a verification movie? It shouldn't take that long, since it's not like it's an RPG or something. Edit: Haven't voted btw since I haven't watched it yet.
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
@Guga: don't worry, there's been a shitstorm on IRC, which we might paste into the thread. (I'm mostly arguing against the category, rather than the lack of a verification movie, which is fixable. It is, of course, important to check that the SRAM is legitimate, especially because there have been past submissions in which it wasn't *glares at RingRush*, but that's something that's irrelevant to the main thrust of my point.) EDIT: Swordless didn't want the IRC conversation posted, so I'll re-make my case in the thread here instead. I'm complaining about the category used by this run. Basically, what's happening here is that the run's copying information from another save file, and using it to complete the game, while apparently aiming for speed. First, if this were actually allowed within the game mechanics, it'd clearly be rejected as a run. It'd be the equivalent of loading up an SM64 file that was already completed, running up to the top of the tower, and beating Bowser to complete the game. Or loading up a Pokémon save file that was already complete, flying to the Elite Four, and beating the Champion with a squad that had already been ground up to level 100 with competitively relevant moves. OK, so technically you could call this "newgame+ completion", but it's not interesting; it skips the part of the game that you actually care about. And in particular, you can't consider this a sensible category for a speedrun, any more than "fastest death" is a sensible category; it's not even playing the majority of the game. In this case, a similar effect is happening via glitch. But we can look at similar glitches from other games, both tool-assisted and unassisted:
  • In the Super Metroid publication [1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12, a glitch that relies on accessing uninitialized RAM is used. In order to set up the contents of the RAM, the run uses a second save file, and loads it and dies just before performing the glitch. Now, this isn't exactly the same sort of glitch as is used in this run, but noticeably, the second save file is produced during the run, via use of an in-game save, and the time it takes to produce that save is counted against the run. (And as this is the "fastest at all costs" category for Super Metroid, a very heavily competed game, it would make no sense to spend that time if it wasn't necessary.) The run is also considerably more entertaining completing the game on its own merits, without having to produce a second save file via magic (or dirty SRAM).
  • Donkey Kong 64 (which is sadly nonTASable because Mupen) has a glitch widely known as the "Funky Weapons Glitch", which is very similar to what's done in this submission: what FWG allows you to do is to start a new game, but with information from what you were doing immediately preceding starting that game to carry over. If you have a save file that's already complete, you can load and quit that save file while doing the glitch in order to have your newly started save file already have keys 3 and 8 (which is what's required to unlock the final boss), then merely buy moves and go defeat the final boss. The unassisted glitched speedruns of DK64 do not do this; instead, they copy over information from the game's multiplayer mode, in order to start with the weapons that are available in multiplayer, and still have to play through the game itself as a result (although that game is so heavily sequence-broken by now that it doesn't look much like a normal playthrough). And the reason, clearly, is that copying over completion from another file, even if it's done via glitch, defeats the point of completing the game; you already did the work of completing the game, but you're not counting it against the timing, so you're basically just misleading people about the clear time.
  • The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword has a glitch (that also exists in several other Zelda games) known as the Back in Time glitch that makes the title screen playable. However, unlike other Zelda games, it's possible to use menus under Back in Time to the extent that it's possible to load a game from the title screen, and save the game from an in-game save point inside the (glitched to be playable) title screen, simultaneously. This causes the game to get confused and merge some information between the two save files. If the second save file is one in which much of the game has already been completed, it's possible to copy over cutscenes like this, which is valuable because cutscenes can have effects on the game (e.g. unlocking areas much later in the game), and a large proportion of the game can be skipped like that. However, Skyward Sword runners restrict themselves to using save files that they created during the run itself (which is still useful to unlock a couple of specific cutscenes, and to confuse the game as to Link's X/Y position as a particularly convoluted method of glitching through walls; interestingly, these uses of the glitch are typically called "speedrun-legal"). Again, this is for the same reasons as before; if you've already done the work of completing the game, and are merely copying your completion record across (whether via an explicit "copy saves" command, or via glitch), you're hiding a lot of time that's part of completing the run from the savefile.
So, what we've established so far is:
  • Newgame+ is not an interesting speedrun category in games that don't actually have a newgame+; at most, it corresponds to "load a savefile in which the game is already complete and go beat the final boss again", and it's even less interesting in games with no final boss.
  • Using information from another save file via glitch is no different category-wise from using it via a mechanism explicitly present in the game.
The conclusion here is that this submission is, if considered as a speedrun, lying about its time. It doesn't complete Diddy Kong Racing in less than 5 minutes; it takes an already-completed save file, and copies across information from it via glitch, leading to a game that's completed. (Such an apparent speedrun submission that lies about its time has happened before: #3519: RingRush's PSX Croc: Legend of the Gobbos "glitched" in 01:10.12 was an April Fool's video that worked via glitching the graphics so that it was unclear what was being done, and simply exited the save file and loaded a 100% save file near the end of the game while nobody could see that that was what was happening. It was a test of the system to see if the judge would catch the cheating.) This run is more honest about how the fast game end is accomplished, and is more interesting because it uses a glitch rather than loading the save file, but the time shown as a "completion time" is just as fraudulent. As such, this method of completing the game, because it requires the game to already be completed and then to do something extra, is clearly slower than just doing it normally, and thus isn't suitable for a speedrun. (If people that "fastest recompletions of a game using an already complete save file" is an interesting speedrun category, then they can feel free to make such runs for other games; it strikes me as hauntingly similar to the Speed Deaths Archive, and that was pretty fun too, with some interesting submissions, but the joke wore itself out eventually.) (Another example is the run linked from the postscript to the publication comments of [1978] SNES Super Metroid "X-Ray glitch" by Cpadolf in 21:25.12; I'm not aware of the exact circumstances of that run, but discussions with others lead me to believe that it glitches back to the start of the game from a file that's already 100%, and completes the game faster from the "start of the game" because it already has all the items. But the game has of course been played up to then in order to obtain all the items in the first place, so it makes no sense to consider this some sort of "fastest Super Metroid completion".) The other potential category that this run could be considered in would be as a glitchfest; although the fact that it completes the game is pretty much irrelevant, it does show off an interesting glitch. However, glitchfests should show off more of the game's glitches than this one does; a glitchfest that just shows off one glitch is about as interesting as a speedrun that only completes one level. That is, not without merit, and interesting to watch, but not worthy of publication. As such, I conclude: this isn't a real category, it's more of a WIP. Merely showing off one glitch, and not using the fastest route, does not a publishable TAS make.
Player (12)
Joined: 6/17/2006
Posts: 501
Can somebody enlighten me about why a savestate is required in addition to the save data? Also, as the others said, a verification movie is a must.
Joined: 5/1/2012
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Location: Maryland
This glitch does not load the 47 balloon file. If it did then it would say that he had 47 balloons and all the amulets. It is loading the new file. He has 0 balloons and no amulets. The game is simply loading the state that the overworld is in and uses the Wrong Warp from a track to keep Player 2 in a plane in an area it is not supposed to be so he can fly over a wall into the final boss. Please don't accuse someone of cheating if you have no idea what this glitch is doing.
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Cfox7 wrote:
This glitch does not load the 47 balloon file. If it did then it would say that he had 47 balloons and all the amulets. It is loading the new file. He has 0 balloons and no amulets. The game is simply loading the state that the overworld is in and uses the Wrong Warp from a track to keep Player 2 in a plane in an area it is not supposed to be so he can fly over a wall into the final boss. Please don't accuse someone of cheating if you have no idea what this glitch is doing.
I agree that it doesn't load the entire file directly. It loads/copies parts of the file, via glitch, and those are the parts that are relevant to reaching the ending of the game. As such, the fact that other parts that aren't relevant to reaching the end of the game are not copied over is irrelevant.
Joined: 5/1/2012
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It is not "copying" anything from the file. It is loading the overworld from the Tracks menu. The Tracks have their own overworld. The 47 file is only needed to have the tracks menu fully available. nothing is loaded from the file itself.
Player (208)
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Posts: 798
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Would this glitch be able to be executed with just Drumstick unlocked and Hot Top Volcano unlocked in the tracks menu? Is it required to have a file with future fun land unlocked or not?
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
Cfox7 wrote:
It is not "copying" anything from the file. It is loading the overworld from the Tracks menu. The Tracks have their own overworld. The 47 file is only needed to have the tracks menu fully available. nothing is loaded from the file itself.
But the glitch wouldn't work if those tracks hadn't been unlocked. And the secondary save file is one from which the game could be completed very easily, right? Is the Tracks menu shared between all save files? Would it work if all the save files were erased after being created? If so, this is a bit more legitimate, and I'm more torn about whether it should be a legal category or not? If it wouldn't, then clearly something is being loaded from the secondary save file.
Joined: 1/18/2013
Posts: 9
I'm seeing a lot of flawed logic in this thread.
ais523 wrote:
Donkey Kong 64 (which is sadly nonTASable because Mupen) has a glitch widely known as the "Funky Weapons Glitch", which is very similar to what's done in this submission: what FWG allows you to do is to start a new game, but with information from what you were doing immediately preceding starting that game to carry over. If you have a save file that's already complete, you can load and quit that save file while doing the glitch in order to have your newly started save file already have keys 3 and 8 (which is what's required to unlock the final boss), then merely buy moves and go defeat the final boss. The unassisted glitched speedruns of DK64 do not do this; instead, they copy over information from the game's multiplayer mode, in order to start with the weapons that are available in multiplayer, and still have to play through the game itself as a result (although that game is so heavily sequence-broken by now that it doesn't look much like a normal playthrough). And the reason, clearly, is that copying over completion from another file, even if it's done via glitch, defeats the point of completing the game; you already did the work of completing the game, but you're not counting it against the timing, so you're basically just misleading people about the clear time.
I'm using this example as the game I know more about. In DK64 the FWG glitch requires you to have previously gathered Banana Fairies to perform, meaning you've played through some of the game in order to do this "Newgame+." I fail to see how this is any different from DKR using a file to wrong warp in a COMPLETELY NEW FILE. The completed file is only needed to access the Time Trial (Tracks) mode, which enables the glitch, the file does not load over nor in any way help or hinder the new file. As for the actual Wrong Warp itself, you're still doing the final boss race, and personally I found it a very entertaining watch. EDIT: Just so nobody discards my opinion, I'm a WR holder + been playing this game for 7 years.
Joined: 1/18/2013
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Do you people even play this game? Listen, I've played this game for 7 years and you guys are all acting like you know everything. Here's the deal, first of all, this game has had a newgame + category for YEARS. SpeedDemosArchive has had a run up for NG+ and NG for over 6 years by Mahrla. 0xwas and I have done several several NG+ runs w/ T.T. This is no different, do your research before you people say there is no such thing as it. Second, we have 3 new main categories that are ALL NG+, defined by our community of 0xwas, Saltcure, Cfox7, Malkieriking, Faschz(Wrong Warp Finder). These are Any% Wrong Warp, Any% No Wrong Warp, and 100%. All of these main categories use T.T. About the wrong warp: Heres the basics of the wrong warp you idiots obviously don't understand. Tracks mode has it's own overworld(getting their via the wrong warp). The Tracks Mode overworld is in connection with the highest progress file and your most recent file. Tracks Mode Overworld will always be your most recent file with the graphics of Tracks Mode, and those graphics are based on the highest progress file. So, having a 47 balloon file and starting a new game, the Tracks Mode Overworld will be THE NEW FILE with with the FUTURE FUNLAND TOWER GONE. Also, how is this not different from getting 6 banana fairies to be able to FWG in DK64? ITS THE SAME PROCESS Again, the WHOLE DIDDY KONG RACING COMMUNITY agrees with this. So, I hope you understand my position.
Joined: 5/1/2012
Posts: 4
Location: Maryland
I agree with Toufool in saying that the entire Diddy Kong Racing Communtiy accepts this as a legitimate category. I dont understand why people who do not even run the game should get a say over those of us that do run the game.
Player (21)
Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 35
Location: Chicago, IL
I agree with some of what ais523 said. Holding my vote for now, but if the title said "newgame+" or "newgame+ glitched", I'd actually be 100% behind it, since it's no different IMO than other runs that do "newgame+". Also, contrary to popular argument on this thread, it IS well within site rules, as long as a verification file is created first. So I would vote yes as long as the verification file is uploaded at least in the submission text (see submission #2113). FROM THE MOVIE RULES PAGE: "We do not allow save-anchored movies... However, there are certain games with unlockable modes, second quests, or other things of interest that can only be accessed if a save file (or an otherwise "dirty" SRAM) is present. If you really wish to submit a movie made on such a mode, you will need a verification movie made and provided alongside it. Any input file that starts from power-on (for example, a previously submitted movie for that game) and creates the exact circumstances for your submission to sync will generally do. ... "In any case, ensure a run of your unlocked mode provides meaningful content over a fresh game. For example, if the unlocked mode features all new bosses, but your run triggers the endgame sequence before meeting any of them, and this same glitch exists in a fresh game as well, then there is no benefit to unlocking this mode." This is pretty clear to me that a glitch that requires a newgame+ file in order to be done is completely acceptable. But again, SL, you have to at least link to the verification file.
If at first you don't succeed, load your savestate and try again
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Toufool31 wrote:
Do you people even play this game? Listen, I've played this game for 7 years and you guys are all acting like you know everything. Here's the deal, first of all, this game has had a newgame + category for YEARS. SpeedDemosArchive has had a run up for NG+ and NG for over 6 years by Mahrla. 0xwas and I have done several several NG+ runs w/ T.T. This is no different, do your research before you people say there is no such thing as it. Second, we have 3 new main categories that are ALL NG+, defined by our community of 0xwas, Saltcure, Cfox7, Malkieriking, Faschz(Wrong Warp Finder). These are Any% Wrong Warp, Any% No Wrong Warp, and 100%. All of these main categories use T.T. About the wrong warp: Heres the basics of the wrong warp you idiots obviously don't understand. Tracks mode has it's own overworld(getting their via the wrong warp). The Tracks Mode overworld is in connection with the highest progress file and your most recent file. Tracks Mode Overworld will always be your most recent file with the graphics of Tracks Mode, and those graphics are based on the highest progress file. So, having a 47 balloon file and starting a new game, the Tracks Mode Overworld will be THE NEW FILE with with the FUTURE FUNLAND TOWER GONE. Also, how is this not different from getting 6 banana fairies to be able to FWG in DK64? ITS THE SAME PROCESS Again, the WHOLE DIDDY KONG RACING COMMUNITY agrees with this. So, I hope you understand my position.
I don't even own a damn N64. I was like 5 then? Also, other people doing it doesn't mean we should. For example, with your brilliant logic, since there's 2 highly unpopular "Single Track" TASes submitted before, we should do it again! BTW, with your last statement, who gives a damn. This isn't the Diddy Kong Racing Community. This is TASVideos, not DiddyKongRacingVideos. Edit: Voted no. Problem, Toufool31?
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