(Link to video)
Moon Crystal is an obscure Japan-only platformer developed and published by Hect. It's so obscure, Wikipedia doesn't even have a page for it. This is a 231 frame improvement to the Vault-published movie by JXQ.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: FCEUX 2.2.0 (with TASEditor)
  • Aims for fastest time
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Uses death to save time
  • Manipulates luck (slightly)

Comments

I got the idea to do the run based off an improvement I thought I found late in Stage 6, though it turned out to actually waste time in the end. I started the run the day FCEUX 2.2.0 was released with the intention of learning TASEditor, not expecting to save more than maybe a second. Over the course of the run, I found a couple timesavers such as a way to reduce some of the lag and a way to bring up the end-of-level fadeout faster in Stages 2, 4, and 6 (the stages involving death), which was a nice motivation to actually finish the run. That's... really it. I've got nothin'.

Stage by stage comments

Stage 1 - Evil Forest (15 frames ahead)

Not much to say about this stage. Early on, you'll notice some random and seemingly unnecessary jumping: This is actually to reduce lag. For some reason, being in the air or swinging your sword at certain times will reduce lag frames. Occasionally there'll be a frame or two of lag that's completely unavoidable, but I do my best to remove every lag frame aside from those. For the most part, aside from some stylistic choices, the stage is the same as JXQ's, just less laggy.

Stage 2 - Waylaid Street (59 frames ahead)

12 frames were saved from lag reduction and tighter movement control, while the other 32 came from the end of the stage, pressing Start just after dieing to bring up the fadeout faster. Otherwise, pretty much the same as JXQ's run.

Stage 3 - Count's Castle (88 frames ahead)

The underground sections here are some of the laggiest in the game, so the huge bulk of the improvement here is due to reducing all that lag. Otherwise, again, route and stuff is mostly unchanged except for stylistic choices.

Stage 4 - Pirate Ship (121 frames ahead)

There was only one frame to save in the level itself, the rest of the improvement came from bringing up the fadeout faster.

Stage 5 - Maclonna Mine (152 frames ahead)

Another big stage for lag reduction. That's... really it. *shrugs*

Stage 6 - Laboratory Part 1 (164 frames ahead)

"Gee, Samsara, I wonder where the improvement came from? Is it lag reduction?" Sure is!

Stage 6.5 - Laboratory Part 2 (223 frames ahead)

23 frames were saved in the level itself, again due to lag reduction and some movement optimization. 4 frames were saved on the boss fight, 2 for each phase. Notable in that it's the only improved boss fight in the run. Died a few frames earlier, which brought up the fadeout earlier on its own, saving 4 frames, plus the usual 32 from bringing up the fadeout earlier with Start.

Stage 7 - Laboratory Escape (231 frames ahead)

I save quite a bit of time throughout the level itself, but it's all cancelled out by an unavoidable wait at that set of spikes, which knocks my improvement to that point down to only 2 frames. I end up still saving 6 more frames from there until the end of the game from tighter movement, a bit of lag reduction, and ending input earlier without ending the game later.

Other comments

The biggest improvement I can think of is being able to remove that unavoidable wait near the end of the game, though as far as I can tell the spikes are constant and unable to be manipulated. Saving time earlier in the level and arriving at the spikes earlier might work... Even then, it'd have to be a rather large gain on top of what I had already saved that I doubt is there.

Thanks

  • Thanks to JXQ for running the game and bringing it to my attention.
  • Thanks to NrgSpoon for bringing the game to JXQ's attention, which subsequently brought it to my attention.
  • And thanks to everyone who watches this run.

Enjoy!


adelikat: Accepting for publication as an improvement to the current movie. Due to viewer response it will be published as a Moon

Ilari: Let's see...

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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #3795: Samsara's NES Moon Crystal in 08:35.12
mklip2001
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Nice! I guess I'm a little surprised that the improvement is only a few seconds. You did a good job with lag reduction, especially in Stage 3's basement. It seems like the first phase of the boss in 6.5 is a little slower... it looks like you waste a little time dodging the blue energy balls. Maybe it's lag instead though... could you compare this part to the currently published run? I don't know why the current run is Vault-ed. I found this game quite interesting, so I'm voting Yes and recommending the Moon tier.
Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:
Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.
Samsara
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mklip2001 wrote:
It seems like the first phase of the boss in 6.5 is a little slower... it looks like you waste a little time dodging the blue energy balls. Maybe it's lag instead though... could you compare this part to the currently published run?
Just checked. I actually save 2 frames on that phase of the boss compared to JXQ. The energy balls home in on your character and dodging them is a huge pain since you have to move so erratically to get them to go the way you want. (Edit: Actually, I think this is the only boss fight I managed to improve across the entire run, 2 frames per phase. JXQ optimized them really well!) That being said, I'm glad you enjoyed the run! I was surprised to see it in the Vault as well, especially with how much I enjoyed the previous run and the game itself.
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warmCabin wrote:
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Samsara wrote:
It's so obscure, Wikipedia doesn't even have a page for it.
There's a page for it on the Japanese Wikipedia, yet it is a complete stub. That speaks a lot about its obscurity.
Samsara
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Quick encode added to description.
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
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This is the best NES TAS I have watched in a while. Seeing a perfect game for TASing like this optimized even further was great. The death abuse at the last boss would make for a good publication screenshot. Now all I need is more Run Saber. :P
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3 xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D Help improving TASVideos!
Samsara
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Zeupar wrote:
Now all I need is more Run Saber. :P
I'm sure something will be done about that, eventually... ;3
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Post subject: Soon Crystal
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Thanks for improving this! Lag-hunting can be quite a chore and it's impressive that you were able to reduce so much of it throughout the run. I remember this TAS as: "so many ideas that feel like they should work, and would be really cool if they did, but they didn't." I watched the run and listed those ideas below that I either tried or thought I tried, just so they are documented somewhere for those in the future who may be able to figure more out than either of us were. (Times are from the youtube encode.)
  • 1:36 - I remember trying this and failing, but it would be awesome if the top level was somehow grabbable between the two spike ceilings. I know you can end up in that state by falling from above, but I wasn't able to get it to work jumping from below. It would be a nice shortcut if somehow that were possible.
  • 2:35 - I never did figure out the mechanics of why falling through the stairs is possible here (which will lead to a question later).
  • 2:49 - Similar to 1:36, though I don't remember if I tried it here, and it wouldn't save very much time if it were possible. The ledge is higher here anyway than the previous example.
  • 3:56 - I wonder if there is a better spot to take this damage (if it's possible to avoid this hit without losing time), since being pushed to the right does not help when you just need to climb. Maybe you can get hit by the bird at 4:16 around where you get the sword (which would only help if you could break the chest with the sword first, then get hit). Otherwise any scenario where pushing to the right is the direction you're going.
  • 4:43 - If these stairs are similar to level 3, maybe you could fall through them here and save a bit of time? I tried here but wasn't able to make it happen since I didn't fully understand how that glitched worked previously.
  • 5:35 - I don't remember trying this, but if you can stand on the rocks the boss throws (unsure) and if a rock would persist during his explosion, you might be able to double-jump from it and kill yourself on the spikes to fade the level out quicker. Hmm, just unpaused and it looks like the rock disappears when the boss starts dying, bummer. I wonder if you can wallsnag like in SMW. I must really wish this timesaver was possible to be reaching this hard for it :]
  • 7:07 - I remember trying this, and succeeding, but that it didn't save time (which confused me at first). I was able to get onto the top ledge here and walk all the way to the right without having to stop for the spikes in that one spot, but since I believe it required a "grab the ledge and pull yourself up" animation, it ended up being slower (and plus you'd need to take damage somewhere else).
  • 7:52 - If these stairs are like level 3's, and that mechanic is figured out, then a slight amount of time might be saved by falling through here (maybe not though, due to potentially needing to swing the sword to make this happen).
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
Post subject: Re: Soon Crystal
Samsara
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JXQ wrote:
Thanks for improving this!
Thanks for watching and commenting, and another thanks for making your runs in the first place!
1:36 - I remember trying this and failing, but it would be awesome if the top level was somehow grabbable between the two spike ceilings. I know you can end up in that state by falling from above, but I wasn't able to get it to work jumping from below. It would be a nice shortcut if somehow that were possible.
It would be possible if there was a double jump earlier on in the level... The platform on the left is too low to make it up there with a single jump and the platform on the right is too close to the spike ceiling.
2:35 - I never did figure out the mechanics of why falling through the stairs is possible here (which will lead to a question later). 4:43 - If these stairs are similar to level 3, maybe you could fall through them here and save a bit of time? I tried here but wasn't able to make it happen since I didn't fully understand how that glitched worked previously. 7:52 - If these stairs are like level 3's, and that mechanic is figured out, then a slight amount of time might be saved by falling through here (maybe not though, due to potentially needing to swing the sword to make this happen).
From what I can tell, you jump into the ceiling above and it pushes you down into the stair, and turning at the correct frame gives you that extra push to the left and makes you drop off. The other two staircases don't have solid ceilings directly above them, so it doesn't seem possible to fall through. You don't need to swing the sword to fall through. If the small drop at 7:52 were possible then a quick jump to the left (without a step to the right) would save the few frames there. Otherwise, for a longer drop like the one in the run it's better to just swing the sword and keep walking left.
2:49 - Similar to 1:36, though I don't remember if I tried it here, and it wouldn't save very much time if it were possible. The ledge is higher here anyway than the previous example.
I spent a while trying this. The pit's just barely too small. If it were extended to the left ever so slightly then the jump would be possible, but for now you're just a couple pixels too short.
3:56 - I wonder if there is a better spot to take this damage (if it's possible to avoid this hit without losing time), since being pushed to the right does not help when you just need to climb. Maybe you can get hit by the bird at 4:16 around where you get the sword (which would only help if you could break the chest with the sword first, then get hit). Otherwise any scenario where pushing to the right is the direction you're going.
I did a quick test of this and I ended up losing 11 frames by the final hit on the boss by taking the damage on that bird.
5:35 - I don't remember trying this, but if you can stand on the rocks the boss throws (unsure) and if a rock would persist during his explosion, you might be able to double-jump from it and kill yourself on the spikes to fade the level out quicker. Hmm, just unpaused and it looks like the rock disappears when the boss starts dying, bummer. I wonder if you can wallsnag like in SMW. I must really wish this timesaver was possible to be reaching this hard for it :]
Doesn't look like you can jump off the rock like you can with the falling ones in the level. Wallsnagging... I doubt it, sadly. I'd love to impale myself on those spikes to save those couple seconds but it looks like they're just barely out of reach. I considered waiting around a bit so I could get killed by another thrown rock but I decided it would take too much time and it wouldn't last long enough to kill myself properly.
7:07 - I remember trying this, and succeeding, but that it didn't save time (which confused me at first). I was able to get onto the top ledge here and walk all the way to the right without having to stop for the spikes in that one spot, but since I believe it required a "grab the ledge and pull yourself up" animation, it ended up being slower (and plus you'd need to take damage somewhere else).
This is actually what got me to start the run (that improvement I thought I found). The normal path with taking damage is definitely faster. There's one place in the level that would be ideal to take damage (the first moving platform), but getting to the upper path takes too much time since (as far as I've tested) you can't just grab the ledge from the slope, you have to jump off the platform to the right to get up there. It would only save a few frames at most if it were possible, but my testing had it end up almost a second slower. It's also a lot laggier up there for some reason with a few more unavoidable lag frames which further negates the improvement. You really are right about the "so many ideas that feel like they should work, and would be really cool if they did, but they didn't." I felt the same way throughout the course of making this.
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Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
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This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [2240] NES Moon Crystal by Samsara in 08:35.12
Joined: 3/14/2013
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So I have started to run this game NON-TAS and was hoping you TASers might be able to answer a question or two. 1) The critical strike--what are the specific mechanics (ie, what determines if it does 2 damage vs 3 or more) from my view it seems its strictly based on how long the sword stays in the boss as it really just decreases its invincibility frames between attacks. 2) On boss 3 does a quick kill appear possible for a human? Every attempt seems to fall 1 attack short, it seems you currently do a small move to the left to avoid his hit, is that before or after you've killed him (always hard to tell on frame perfect movements) Currently my time is 14:58 but I know I can break 13:45 if I stop choking, having trouble figuring out the rest of the time saves that are human possible Edit: So in reading the notes from the original video that explains a bit more about the critical strikes, I guess back to the drawing board for me.
Samsara
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Whoa, I wasn't expecting a response on the submission after publication, sorry for the two month delay in responding!
neo_sporin wrote:
So I have started to run this game NON-TAS and was hoping you TASers might be able to answer a question or two. 1) The critical strike--what are the specific mechanics (ie, what determines if it does 2 damage vs 3 or more) from my view it seems its strictly based on how long the sword stays in the boss as it really just decreases its invincibility frames between attacks.
It's a pretty specific thing that from the looks of it you've already figured out: Pretty much just not overshooting the boss and connecting for the 6 or so frames it takes to deal the three damage. Frame-perfect strategies are basically miracles if you can pull them off in realtime, so unless you're that much of a masochist I wouldn't worry too much about trying to pull it off.
neo_sporin wrote:
2) On boss 3 does a quick kill appear possible for a human? Every attempt seems to fall 1 attack short, it seems you currently do a small move to the left to avoid his hit, is that before or after you've killed him (always hard to tell on frame perfect movements)
Oh god, the less said about the third boss, the better. Watching the run again, yeah that move to the left is to avoid a hit (it's just before the last hit I deliver since it's impossible to take him out before he attacks), since manipulating him to do that is the fastest strategy. The big thing in that battle is luck manipulation and, especially for running it non-TAS, you're going to have to get very lucky to be able to pull off any sort of quick kill. Seeing a fight like that done in real time would be incredibly impressive but I wouldn't count on it for the most part.
neo_sporin wrote:
Currently my time is 14:58 but I know I can break 13:45 if I stop choking, having trouble figuring out the rest of the time saves that are human possible Edit: So in reading the notes from the original video that explains a bit more about the critical strikes, I guess back to the drawing board for me.
Nice work! Even after investing a few weeks into this run (and this game in general) I wouldn't be able to run it properly unassisted so major props to you for getting a time like that in a game like this! I can attempt to explain some of the timesaves since it seems like a fair number of them are possible in realtime, though to be fair I'm rather tired and still a little drunk so I might not be as coherent or helpful as I'd like: *For the most part, jumping will reduce lag, and depending on the situation slashing during jumps may reduce it further, so if you find a place to be particularly laggy see if that'll help. You can generally follow my run for that but the lag does vary quite a lot so it's probably safer to do it more often than not, even at the risk of annoyance or entertainment dropping. *I'd honestly say that, for realtime, in most cases it'd be faster and safer to avoid taking damage during the stages themselves and just going gung-ho on the bosses, using the invulnerability frames to your advantage when you get down to 1 health. The bosses have a tendency to be more random/spasmodic than most speedrunners would like, with the exception of the Stage 4 pirate boss because he literally does just stand there for the first five seconds of the fight as you've probably already noticed. *The tricky jumps (the skip in Stage 6-2 comes to mind) can be done relatively easily in realtime with some practice. One that isn't done during the run that I would definitely recommend, though, is at the end of Stage 6-2, getting on top of that last corridor before the final boss would save a lot of time for an RTA, as opposed to a TAS that can blow through the corridor itself without stopping. For the most part when it comes to trying to copy the TAS strategies, I'd really recommend watching the runs in FCEUX at half/quarter speed, or even frame by frame, and seeing how things are done. Doing that with JXQ's run is what gave me the knowledge I have about speedrunning this game, so I'm sure it'd help immensely for an RTA as well. Again, apologies for the two month late response and good luck on future runs should you be reading this and still running the game!
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.