Vault rules say the categories are any% and 100%. The definition of any% in this case is THE FASTEST POSSIBLE COMPLETION TIME. Unfortunately, I have allowed the site to blur that simple definition of any% by having a "glitched" category that is faster than a "any%" category in some cases. I completely disagree with this categorization though. any% should be the fastest movie, then we should have a better naming of movies that forgo major skips/glitches.
The vault absolutely prefers the faster movie, not a (more ambiguous) movie that fails to do a time saving glitch.
Based on this post, it strikes me that when there is only one run for a particular game, then that run shouldn't be labeled "glitched". After all, there is no other run or branch to distinguish it from, and it should be more properly labeled "any%" (or, I suppose, it doesn't require a label at all since it's the only branch anyway). So I suggest that the following ten runs be relabeled.
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There's some ambiguity between the role of tags and categories. However, I think we should avoid using a category when a tag is more appropriate. Those movies can be tagged as "heavy glitch abuse" (if appropriate). But I agree that if there is one movie, that aims for fastest time, it is unnecessary and inappropriate to label it as glitched. The intent of the category is for specifying branches, not describing the movie.
I think it's a bit shame that Vault only accepts the fastest run and nothing else. This means that if there's a completely-glitched-out run that finishes the game in 1 minute, which has almost nothing to see, it will be the only published version for that game, even if there would be a 20-minute unglitched version that could be more interesting to watch.
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Warp wrote:
even if there would be a 20-minute unglitched version that could be more interesting to watch.
If it is more interesting to watch, it stands a good chance of being a moon tier movie then. Not being vault eligible simply means we require some entertainment value to publish.
Just to point out...
Pokemon Blue does have an any% run. It was removed from obsoletion quite recently actually. So the glitched version should be labelled "glitched".
http://tasvideos.org/950M.html
I'm guessing Radiant didn't see it because they aren't next to each other in lists of movies. This is because the glitched version is done on the GameBoy, while the any% run is on the Super GameBoy.
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I think you may have misunderstood.
His point is that the movie he linked is any%, and the one you linked should be categorized "glichless any%" or something similar. The movie with extra rules (i.e. glichless) is the one that should get the adjectives attached to it, not the pure any% movies.
...when there is only one run for a particular game, then that run shouldn't be labeled "glitched".[/list]
My point is that there are two runs for Pokemon Blue, a glitched run and a low-glitch run, and that Radiant's suggestion would leave the two movies with the same title. Whether the glitched or low-glitch runs should get the branch label is a totally different discussion.
I had indeed overlooked the existence of the second Pokemon Blue movie. That said, I agree with Twelvepack; the movie linked in the first post is "Any%" and the other one should have an additional tag.
I personally disagree with removing "glitched" from branches that are faster than "any%"s, or if they are the only existing branches. This term has always been a great way to label the exclusive contents of the run, and to make it clearly distinguishable from other goals. It is a good tradition and it has practical value for all. While removing "glitched" not just serves some categorization purposes, but adds in much confusion to what was traditional.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I personally disagree with removing "glitched" from branches that are faster than "any%"s, or if they are the only existing branches. This term has always been a great way to label the exclusive contents of the run, and to make it clearly distinguishable from other goals. It is a good tradition and it has practical value for all. While removing "glitched" not just serves some categorization purposes, but adds in much confusion to what was traditional.
Tags need to be consistently applied in order to be useful. Traditionally, "any%" has been used to mean "the fastest run of the game". This is a clear and objective definition, and it means it's not possible to have a run that is "glitched faster than any%".
What causes confusion here is that some runs use "any%" to mean "a run that looks good", and use "glitched" to mean "the fastest run of the game". But this conflicts with the fact that Moon Tier is supposed to be the collection for "a run that looks good". Only a small minority of games are tagged in this different way (i.e. the ten listed here, from thousands on the site), and I think it would be a good idea to clean this up.
It is completely arbitrary to label a movie with any%, that is not the fastest movie of the game. There is only one logical definition for any% and that is beating the game as fast as possible. This being said, I totally agree with what most people wrote in here:
The fastest movie always has to get the label any% and all other movies published of the same game, need an extra label, that easily describes the difference between the 2 movies.
It is completely arbitrary to label a movie with any%, that is not the fastest movie of the game. There is only one logical definition for any% and that is beating the game as fast as possible. This being said, I totally agree with what most people wrote in here:
The fastest movie always has to get the label any% and all other movies published of the same game, need an extra label, that easily describes the difference between the 2 movies.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
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feos wrote:
MrGrunz wrote:
It is completely arbitrary to label a movie with any%, that is not the fastest movie of the game. There is only one logical definition for any% and that is beating the game as fast as possible. This being said, I totally agree with what most people wrote in here:
The fastest movie always has to get the label any% and all other movies published of the same game, need an extra label, that easily describes the difference between the 2 movies.
"any%" is any percent. "Any" can mean 100. 100 is a percentage number too, after all. It just means 100% is the fastest way of completing that game, the same way e.g. 21% is the fastest way for, say, Metroid Zero Mission.
Also, not sure what your point is here. That run is currently labeled as any% (or rather, has no label name, which means any%) and always has been.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
My point is that adding branches just to categorize items in the database, not to help viewers understand the exclusive goal, is wrong. To point out something is the fastest of all branches we can use some flag. Branches are statements of what is the run's goal, be it "glitched" or "100%". If 100% is the fastest, it must be flagged as such, but for best recognition is must still keep its branch as 100%.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
It is completely arbitrary to label a movie with any%, that is not the fastest movie of the game. There is only one logical definition for any% and that is beating the game as fast as possible. This being said, I totally agree with what most people wrote in here:
The fastest movie always has to get the label any% and all other movies published of the same game, need an extra label, that easily describes the difference between the 2 movies.
Word. That is the only logic that works.
feos wrote:
The point is not that there always has to be an any% movie. The point is, that there can't be anything faster than the any% movie. Because by it's very definition any% is beating the game as fast as possible, without any regard for rules.
So there shouldn't be "any%" and "any% glitched", where "any% glitched" is actually the faster movie. There should be "any%" and "any% doesn't use a particular glitch", where any% is the faster movie.
If an any% is actually slower than a 100% movie that any% movie should probably be killed with fire anyway.
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Slowking wrote:
So there shouldn't be "any%" and "any% glitched", where "any% glitched" is actually the faster movie. There should be "any%" and "any% doesn't use a particular glitch", where any% is the faster movie.
Exactly. glitched any% as a name should go away. Fastest = any%, and then we need to do a better job categorizing any% movies that forgo time saving glitches/techniques.
What I'm saying is that "Heavy glitch abuse" is not the same as "glitched" branch, because any branch can have "heavy glitch abuse" and not be "glitched" at the same time. So we can't just make a tag and throw away the goal statement.
If anyone has such huge problems finding the fastest branch for some game, we can add a flag (linking to all current published branches for certain game, or to all fastest branches of all published games). And for those who fail to read all descriptions to know HOW is fastest completion achieved (by 2 players, by warps, by game breaking glitches) we need to have visible branches for all runs.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If anyone has such huge problems finding the fastest branch for some game, we can add a flag (linking to all current published branches for certain game, or to all fastest branches of all published games).
That seems to me as overkill. The current system is working perfectly fine, it's just that a small amount (less than 1%) of the runs in the database are using the wrong label by mistake. That is very easy to fix.
Well, we have a 0% as the any% before. We also have movieslikethese which somehow isn't counted as 100% on the site despite the game itself counting it as such. :P
It seems like the consensus is to remove the "glitched" branch from a TAS which is the fastest/only movie (which I agree with). I will remove those labels now.
Edit: Couldn't figure out a good branch name for http://tasvideos.org/950M.html , so I just called it "less glitched" for now.
Right, so as I understand it, the consensus has changed from "Movies should not be labelled glitched if they are the only branch" (which was I believe Radiant's original point) to "movies should NEVER be labelled glitched as glitched movies are just any% runs".
So Radiant has cleared up a small list of movies fitting the first criteria, but it seems the much larger list of movies with the glitched label which were not the only branch, and their low-glitch counterparts, also needs addressing.
Is there a way of searching for the word "glitched" in movie titles and removing them en masse? That would cut down on a lot of work.
There also needs to be a rule for naming the low-glitch branches. I would suggest either a blanket term, "low-glitch", or a game-specific label, "avoids [X]", where X is the glitch used in the any% (formerly glitched) version.
Finally, Super Mario 64 "0 Stars" is similarly an any% run, so that should lose its label too.
Thanks. I appear to have missed one on my list, which is Densetsu no Stafy.
thatguy wrote:
Right, so as I understand it, the consensus has changed from "Movies should not be labelled glitched if they are the only branch" (which was I believe Radiant's original point) to "movies should NEVER be labelled glitched as glitched movies are just any% runs".
That is certainly something worth discussing. There appears to be a disagreement over what "any%" means; most people in this thread believe it means "the fastest run of the game, no limitations" whereas other people disagree, but have not given an alternative definition as far as I've found.
It's easy enough to search for "glitched" movies just by typing that word into the search box on the front page. We only have a handful of those, which suggests that most people indeed don't find this a useful label for a movie.
Of particular note here are the Metroid runs. In the Metroid speedrunning community, which predates the TasVideos site, the three standard runs are Any%, 100%, and Low%; where Any% allows the use of any glitches you can find. That means we should probably not call any Metroid runs "glitched" given that the Metroid community would call them "Any%". (never mind that paragraph)
We have 16 movies total out of over a thousand on the site. It seems that all of those could be renamed to "Any%" assuming we have agreement on the idea that "Any%" means "the fastest run of that game". A few of these have an unlabeled run which should be renamed "less glitched". In the case of Metroid II, it seems the "glitched" run should obsolete the "unnamed" run, which also uses glitches and which is in the vault. $.02
So for the less glitched runs, would it be better to actually name them "less glitched" or something more specific like "no crumbs glitch" and "no stone glitch" (in the case of EarthBound Zero and Kirby's Adventure)?
