Posted: 1/29/2015 7:42 PM
Post subject: Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean
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Baffan
He/Him
Joined: 1/28/2015
Posts: 4
Hello everyone, I am Baffan. I speedrun some games, like Tales of Symphonia on Gamecube, Alisia Dragoon on Megadrive, and Astro Boy: Omega Factor on GBA. But I never had the opportunity to work on a TAS. Even if I get interested on TASes for a long time, I just watched them, no more. I always had the idea of TASing some games, but it just never happened. But recently, I had a very long talk with Tompa about Baten Kaitos, that I also speedrun but way less often because it takes around 15 hours in non-segmented. And we agreed that I should try to do a TAS for this game, since the segmented run is 10h37 and the TAS could easily break the 10 hours. I already wanted to do one for a long time but I didn’t feel like I can. But Tompa convinced me that with some support I could do it. So, today I’m here to tell you that you that I plan to TAS Baten Kaitos. As I said before, I made multiple runs of the game in single-segment. Thanks to that, I have a pretty good knowledge of the game, because I had to investigate it a lot in order to find strategies, items that appears at the best moments etc. I also especially studied the SDA segmented run a lot, in order to have a solid idea of the fastest route of the game, and to adapt some strategies for the single-segment. That’s with all those things in mind that I plan to do the TAS. I don’t go totally from scratch. However, as I mentioned, I am a pure beginner for TASes. The best thing I made that was TAS-related was the bike trial on Pokemon Emerald on VisualBoyAdvance, frame per frame, with savestates, to have the best time possible. I read multiple things about the DTM format for GC, I have some global knowledges about how RAM works, about binary/hexadecimal etc but I never practiced anything TAS-related on a GC emulator. I assume the default emulator to chose would be the latest version of Dolphin. About the run, I don’t really know what to say. I have a ton of ideas and things in mind but I don’t know where to begin. The bosses are already easy even in single-segment because of the bonus of straights. Of course there are 2 or 3 exceptions, but in the majority of the game, the fights are already not hard at all. But the RNG is the main factor, of course. In single-segment runs, I just work on my decks in order to avoid any RNG trolls. For a TAS it would be totally different, allowing extremely risky strats manipulating RNG. I already know the HP and weaknesses of bosses, so I will also have to figure out how technically fast I can go for a boss, and see if I easily can, things like that. The overworld movements won’t be too hard i believe. A lot of rerecords will be necessary in order to have the best dodges of enemies etc, but I don’t think it will be that hard. On this game you can only mash texts with A. Which mean I can’t stupidly have one frame pressing A and the next pressing B, repeat. I will have to investigate if I can mash A every 2 frames or if I will have to time my mashing, which I’m afraid will be the thing I have to do. I guess you understand it, the biggest work will probably be on the investigations around the game, then on planning the entire route. When i did my normal runs, I was able to do a quick route then update it little by little every time. Of course for a TAS it’s not really possible and I need to have my route already decided. I will need to learn how exactly works the RNG, especially about the cards from the decks, and how the spirit finishers appear more precisely. Some bosses will require further investigations, like the Iron Beetle V for example. This boss has 1700 HP and entirely recovers pretty quickly, only 1 time in the whole fight. I believe it is turn based, but maybe it’s HP based and that could mean i can kill it before he uses the recover. Even if I hardly doubt of it. The main goal of this thread is just to inform you that I plan to TAS the game. I don’t plan to begin until weeks. But as you understand, I am a beginner. Even if I can count on Tompa and toothache42 to help me, I would accept any help you would give me, whether informations about the game I didn’t, consider, tips, recommendations etc etc. I also make this thread because I seriously want to keep you informed about how it progresses, what I discover etc. It’s not just something I want to do in my corner, it’s something I would like to share with the maximum people that would like to. Thanks for reading!
Current Projects: Baten Kaitos Twitter | Twitch
Posted: 1/29/2015 9:50 PM
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Zarmakuizz
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Joined: 10/12/2013
Posts: 279
Location: France
What, less than 10 hours in segmented? :o Now that you say it, I remember a friend 2HKOing the last battle against Malpercio by pure chance, using Lyude, Savyna, Sunrise/the opposite, and one of the items that change at every fight. Looking at the commentary on the segmented speedrun, looks like there are indeed some nice improvments available. Good luck!
Posted: 1/29/2015 10:32 PM
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Baffan
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Joined: 1/28/2015
Posts: 4
OMG, thanks a lot for your reply, it means a lot for me! It's an interesting thing you mentioned Savyna and Lyude, because I don't use them on RTA. Savyna not at all, and Lyude only for a short time when a 3rd character is required. I know it can be surprising that I don't use Savyna, but there are some reasons for that. First, her items for upgrading classes are not convenient to get. Second, her decks are not that good for straights etc. And third, I am not very good with her. That's why I don't use her. However, I need to consider her for the TAS, for obvious reasons (she attacks really fast). Same thing for Mizuti, I don't think I will any use of her. Xelha being mandatory at some point, I better focus on her. And her Classes up are WAY easier. But that will require further investigations, of course. It's also a good thing that you talk about the segmented run. I didn't think about posting it there, but you did. Because yes I referred to the SDA segmented run, that can itself be improved. Thanks for that. I would also like to post my own RTA PB/WR and my own notes/route for that if anyone wants them for comparison. Besides, I didn't mention it, but I still don't really know which version I should use between NTSC-U and -J versions, The texts are not important in this game and textboxes display instantly if I want them to. And in fights, I just watch the number that correspond to the attack or the defense, the kind of item it is, and the color for the element. However, I will probably menu a lot, so maybe -U is more convenient. Unless some big JP only glitch is found, because this game is still glitchless sadly. The JP version was released over a year before the US version after all, so there was plenty of time to fix things, if there were any.
Current Projects: Baten Kaitos Twitter | Twitch
Posted: 1/29/2015 11:32 PM
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Patashu
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Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4014
If there's no glitch or other gameplay (e.g. not including text/cutscene changes) difference that makes J faster than U, use U as per the site's guidelines.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 1/29/2015 11:41 PM
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Zarmakuizz
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Joined: 10/12/2013
Posts: 279
Location: France
Feel free to post any resource you think could be relevant to this game's TAS :) It happens sometimes that a game is easier in US version. About Japanese glitches, it might be worth looking what is on NicoNico. Other than that, you don't need to focus on a particular language version right now, figuring out how the RNG works will take you some time (what are exactly the best answers, how do they affect the RNG, how do the RNG work in the first place, etc).
Posted: 1/30/2015 7:43 AM
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andypanther
Any
Former player
Joined: 6/30/2010
Posts: 1093
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
The site allows to use J or U: "The US ((U)) versions are generally preferred over the Japanese ((J)) version due to the use of English language, which is easier to understand for the general audience. However, the Japanese audience here is significant, and there is no longer a specific requirement at TASVideos to use one version over another." Only for improvements to published TASes, you're not allowed to obsolete a U-TAS with a J-Version, when the only improvement is text. You need at least one frame of gameplay improvement.
Current project: Gex 3 any% Paused: Gex 64 any% There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Posted: 2/3/2015 3:08 AM
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Baffan
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Joined: 1/28/2015
Posts: 4
Hello everyone! Thanks for all your answers I was very happy to have some. Since that day, I went on IRC on the tasvideos and dolphin channels in order to get more help, having some blurry things explained to me, encoding lessons, etc etc And so now I am pretty proud to show you what could more or less be the Part 1 of a Baten Kaitos TAS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsIe0UbrmKY This won't truly be the beginning of the full TAS, because there are still some issues. For example, the first logo freezes for the emulator and the recording, as you can see at the very beginning. The audio sync is strange too, sometimes it seems early, sometimes late, sometimes perfect. I have to figure out that. If any of you have some ideas, I would appreciate if you tell me please. Besides, I am still learning the basics more or less, even if now I begin to know a lot of things. So this is not truly perfect. But at least it's something! Next time, we will try the fights! Of course I began to note some of those things, even if it's not really complete. You can see my notes here and I also made a thing about the inputs I press depending on the frames here. Thanks for reading! Edit: Rerecord count is 344
Current Projects: Baten Kaitos Twitter | Twitch
Posted: 2/3/2015 10:59 AM
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ALAKTORN
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Player (99)
Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
At 4:32 it sounded like you didn’t make the dialogue go away as fast as possible, why is that? Also when exiting the village you went straight down which seems weird, is it not faster to go diagonally down-right?
Posted: 2/3/2015 5:37 PM
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Baffan
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Joined: 1/28/2015
Posts: 4
For the text at 4:32 that's how it is, for some reason the Cedr textbox stays a little. Scottimus432 already explained that on his segmented run on SDA. It is not faster to move diagonally, because as you can see there is an invisible line/trigger that activates a talk, and then Kalas exits the town. I tried to go diagonally, but it takes the exact frame number for Kalas to exit the town, wherever I activate the trigger. So I aim for the fastest to activate it, and it appears that going straight down is faster by 3 frames that if I want full down-right.
Current Projects: Baten Kaitos Twitter | Twitch
Posted: 10/25/2015 12:58 PM
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Tompa
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Editor, Expert player (2141)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
NES TAS of 2018 SNES TASer of 2017 SNES TAS of 2017 NES TAS of 2014 GBA TASer of 2011 GBA TAS of 2011 SNES TASer of 2010
If anyone is interested: While it won't be a TAS, Baffan is about to start a new 100% Speedrun for the game. Which will last about 345 hours the next 15 days! http://www.twitch.tv/baffan Progress: http://baffan.free.fr/bk100/
Posted: 10/29/2015 12:40 AM
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deuxhero
Joined: 8/7/2011
Posts: 166
Baten Kaitos 100% speed run? That seems like a contradiction. A 99.9% run could be interesting though.