Topic by MESHUGGAH

Posted: 9/4/2018 11:43 AM

Post subject: Forbidden Techniques (currently not allowed/possible tricks)

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MESHUGGAH

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I've made a page listing of techniques not allowed/possible currently for submitting TAS. The goal is mostly "allow submitting movies that were done in real life". The page is subject to change as I'm gathering more examples and dimensions. http://tasvideos.org/MESHUGGAH/ForbiddenTechniques.html I would be happy to read feedbacks/discussion about these things. Probably this shouldn't be that thread (as the page consists of many different ones) but somewhere had to "highlight" this page.

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Posted: 9/4/2018 12:22 PM

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Patashu

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How about runs that involve physical interaction with the setup (kicking the console, plugging/unplugging something, opening the disk tray/swapping disks for any reason except a game-required disk swap, crooked cartridge)? Not sure how many of these are used in runs, but the advantages of opening the disk tray are obvious (can skip or delay cutscenes in some games) There could also be 'tricks' caused by variations in console and console environment - components that have failed or aged, a disk drive or hard drive loading slower/faster than normal, etc. Emulators don't (and shouldn't be expected to) allow for physical parameters of the underlying hardware to be specified arbitrarily. There's also always, of course, cosmic rays flipping a bit at just the right moment to make your run faster. Wonder if anyone's ever tried to pull that off in real time.

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Posted: 9/4/2018 12:54 PM

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MESHUGGAH

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"Physical interaction" - I included this as alone (cart swapping) as well as real life hazards (under TODO, currently kick console, cosmic ray, etc...). According to a recent post by feos (which was one of the main motivation for me creating this page), We do not allow events of the physical or hardware world to be used in TASes. Because these can't be emulated. . Regarding this, I hope this will change. Somehow. Someway. Components aged, failed: This is also something I believe we should take advantage of (and listed under todo). My most ~~famous~~ favourite malfunctioning is obviously Battletoads finishing the game by pressing the reset button. Link to video I don't want to go in details (as I'm more about collecting informations rather than solving it on other's behalf) but this is a case where someone played so much that the game cartridge got broken, making only him possible to do this because of sole posession.

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Posted: 9/5/2018 11:17 AM

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c-square

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(Movie rule exception based on missing archivation of games) No cracked games except for C64

The actual rule, "Exceptions may be made for bad or cracked ROM images only if no good ROM images exist, or are not obtainable" isn't console specific. Many DOS games fall under the same limitation.

Posted: 9/5/2018 11:19 AM

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MESHUGGAH

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edit: The rule linked for that section has the title "Rules for consoles" and the aforementioned line only appears at Commodore 64. So I think you are right and the rule text should be changed? (as well my page) Ah I see, I should have included your's line in my page as it refers to what images to use (cracked if non cracked not available) while I mistakenly took the "use disk instead of tape" line. Will update it. (edit2: done, moved to bottom of the page.)

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Posted: 9/10/2018 1:46 AM

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jlun2

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I'm not sure if this counts, but there was that instant win SMB3 show case during one of the TASBot events. I can't seem to find the video right now, however. Anyone with info on it?

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 9/10/2018 1:52 AM

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Patashu

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jlun2 wrote:

I'm not sure if this counts, but there was that instant win SMB3 show case during one of the TASBot events. I can't seem to find the video right now, however. Anyone with info on it?

That's 'NES DPCM glitch' and already listed on the page, though it could use more information and video links if you have any! EDIT: I thought of a good video for the 'cart swapping' section. A proof of concept, where you get ACE in one game to instantly finish a second game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xayxmTLljr8

My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu

Posted: 9/11/2018 11:16 AM
(Edited: 11/6/2018 1:19 PM)

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MESHUGGAH

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- Will try to find as concrete examples as I can with media - I've checked all cancelled and rejected submissions' judge notes. Here's my list I need to check for potential infos: (probably will edit multiple times for feos' pleasure) --> hopefully final edit, will add it to the page. feos' judgement on using difficulty switches --> #5928: MrWint's A2600 Barnstorming "no collisions" in 00:32.41 SRAM --> #5883: Masterjun's SNES Super Mario World "sram game end glitch" in 00:11.13 SRAM --> #5387: keylie & KadMony's SNES Final Fantasy VI "game end glitch" in 29:23.58 SRAM -> #5266: Alyosha's NES Cybernoid: The Fighting Machine in 04:39.02 SRAM duplicate --> #4971: Randil, Alyosha's FDS Cybernoid: The Fighting Machine in 04:35.78 hardware external port --> #5447: Masterjun's SNES Super Mario World "expansion game end glitch" in 00:41.75 console verified --> #4947: dwangoAC, Ilari & p4plus2's SGB Pokémon: Red/Green/Blue/Yellow Version "Pokemon Plays Twitch" in 08:11.42 troll submission? -->#4636: got4n's PSX Rayman "memory glitch" in 04:17.35 adelikat's clever ideas (endless + looping%) --> #3912: adelikat's FDS Super Mario Bros. 2 in 115:17:46:40.00 rejected for not containing original TAS --> #5067: dekutony's DS The Legendary Starfy "SRAM glitch" in 02:38.48 rejected for not containing original TAS --> #3832: jlun2's GBA Densetsu no Stafy "Glitched NewGame+" in 00:11.02 rejected for not containing original TAS --> #3831: SwordlessLink's N64 Diddy Kong Racing "Glitched NewGame+" in 04:09.25 PASSWORD glitch --> #3568: jlun2 & RachelB's GC Spider-Man 2 "glitched" in 00:30.38 PASSWORD glitch --> #5175: paosidufygth's PSX Rockman X3 in 13:36.56 Wii buffer overflow (details in subtext) --> #3515: RachelB's Wii The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess "glitched" in 00:22.65 unreject? --> #3551: Rolanmen1's GBA Mega Man Zero 4 "glitched" in 01:45.58 unreject? --> #3530: Deign's NES Peek-A-Boo Poker in 03:46.84 GB instead of SGB --> #2643: MUGG's GB Crayon Shin-Chan 4 in 07:10.83 - Will try to somehow compare already allowed rules with some forbidden ones (custom initial ram usage versus random initial ram usage, password vs not really password, cart swapping vs mid frame resetting etc)

PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...

Posted: 9/11/2018 12:53 PM

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GJTASer2018

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MESHUGGAH, here's another page to reference for A2600 frying tricks: http://www.ataricompendium.com/game_library/easter_eggs/vcs/vcs.html

c-square wrote:

Yes, standard runs are needed and very appreciated here too

Dylon Stejakoski wrote:

Me and the boys starting over our games of choice for the infinityieth time in a row because of just-found optimizations

^ Why I don't have any submissions despite being on the forums for years now...

Posted: 10/12/2018 4:49 PM

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ruadath

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So just for clarification, does this mean no disc swapping FMV trick in FF7, even though it has been shown to work on emulator exactly as it does on console?

Posted: 10/13/2018 5:41 PM

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MESHUGGAH

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ruadath: 1. Disc swapping on PSX is a built in feature (ejecting disc and inserting disc). Not to be confused eith Cart swapping on systems where the game actively uses the current media. 2. This page is only maintained by me and there can be errors like misinterpreting rules. 3. Answer to your question: it should be allowed already as a recent TAS did it.

PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...

Posted: 10/13/2018 6:37 PM

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ruadath

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Which recent TAS did it?

Posted: 11/4/2018 4:57 PM

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jlun2

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Iirc I remember a post saying swapping blank memory cards for a certain Zelda game was "fast" in game wise due to shorter message regarding saving. Does anyone know more about this, or did I just dreamed that?

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 11/4/2018 7:36 PM

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Lil_Gecko

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Hmm as I was told in the "Ask a Judge", Movie Rules says

"For games that consist of multiple images that are intended to be used in a specific order, inserting a new image is only allowed when the game explicitly prompts for it, and the intended order must be respected"

So, no, it shouldn't be allowed.

Posted: 11/4/2018 9:05 PM

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Patashu

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Thought of another one, it might be possible nowadays. In secret of mana, you can unplug second and third controllers to return second and third players to AI control for a while, and this is useful since the AIs don’t trigger things like cutscenes like players do. But I don’t think this is possible to TAS yet.

My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu

Posted: 11/5/2018 2:18 PM

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MESHUGGAH

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Nice find, wiĺl add this (unplugging controller mid TAS)

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Posted: 11/5/2018 8:47 PM

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Archanfel

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Not sure if this counts, but in [3799] N64 Doom 64 by Headshot in 23:54.90 mentioned that exist trick which currently impossible for emulation:

Headshot wrote:

This TAS does not take advantage of lag clipping, a major glitch that would save several minutes off of this time, because there is no emulator that can faithfully recreate this glitch.

I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)

Posted: 11/6/2018 8:35 AM

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Warp

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ruadath wrote:

So just for clarification, does this mean no disc swapping FMV trick in FF7, even though it has been shown to work on emulator exactly as it does on console?

I don't think that something should be allowed merely because it works on the console. A GameGenie works on the console, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed, for instance.

Posted: 11/6/2018 8:39 AM

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ruadath

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I don't understand why disc swapping would be banned when resetting in the middle of saving is.

Posted: 11/6/2018 11:05 AM

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MESHUGGAH

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ruadath: You should ask this question in the Thread #19741: Ask a Judge. My guess is that resetting while something happens (saving) has no real obstacles to implement. This can't be said for discs / various media storages. edit: Updated page with latest informations. edit2: except my post with ~20 submissions

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Posted: 11/6/2018 1:24 PM

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Memory

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Hardware tampering is banned for good reason in my book. The examples you listed were merely stuff like kicking the console etc, however you can go much further with hardware tampering. Why not outright modify the console? Find a way to overclock a NES? I mean if you're allowing aged components why not allow straight up changing components? And at what point is it even the same system?

[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours

[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero

Posted: 11/6/2018 1:27 PM

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MESHUGGAH

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I do and I actually already posted these in the arbitrary framerate thread. And not all of them are hardware quirks if you have read it, just to name a few: passwords, roms, dpcm glitch.

PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...

Posted: 11/6/2018 1:41 PM

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Memory

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In that case...

MESHUGGAH wrote:

The goal is mostly "allow submitting movies that were done in real life".

Why? EDIT: To clarify, it would obviously lead to faster movies, but would that necessarily be interesting?

[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours

[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero

Posted: 11/6/2018 2:53 PM

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ruadath

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@Memory How is swapping discs hardware tampering? I find arbitrarily resetting the system and corrupting save data to be much more "damaging" to the hardware than swapping discs during gameplay.

Posted: 11/6/2018 2:57 PM

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Memory

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ruadath wrote:

@Memory How is swapping discs hardware tampering? I find arbitrarily resetting the system and corrupting save data to be much more "damaging" to the hardware than swapping discs during gameplay.

I don't remember addressing disc swapping as hardware tampering.

[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours

[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero