(Link to video)
Submission Text Full Submission Page
Pond is just in time to save Christmas, and save a nice 2983 frames over the previous TAS while he's at it.

Game objectives

  • Emulator used: Bizhawk v2.2.1
  • Aims for fastest completion
  • Takes damage to save time

Improvements

SectionDifference
Intro+1
Castle Movement-8
Level 01-6
Level 02-78
Level 03-2
Level 04-120
Level 05-152
Level 06-37
Level 07-228
Level 08-332
Level 09-46
Level 10-386
Level 11-314
Level 12-4
Level 13-1264
Level 14-6
Total-2983

Emulator

Bizhawk adds 1 frame to most of the loading screens, but is otherwise overshadowed by all the improvements found in the run.

Boss Battles

A boss's 100 frame invincibility timer only decreases while they're on screen, and doesn't tick if they're not currently visible. Special care was taken to make sure that we always have the boss in our sight, to remove any extra waiting which the previous TAS did not do. Note that this is does apply to the level end sequence, and so we're free to jump around once the boss is dead.

Mystery Bonus

Every 4th enemy killed drops a special bonus in the form of a pair of false teeth. Collecting these is what awards the Mystery Bonus at the end of the level, for 500 points per pickup, and annoying ~70 frames to give it to us. This was completely overlooked in the previous TAS, collecting a lot of unnecessary bonuses. Proper effort was undertook to avoid all of these, which also includes controlling which enemies actual get killed in order to make sure the bonuses never spawn in our way.

HP Management

HP management was otherwise fine on the previous TAS, ending with only 2 HP by the end, compared with potentially 3 HP for this TAS. It's still beneficial to lose that spare HP however, since it means 3 fewer frames on each score screen. The only chance that we have to get hurt without losing time was during the on-rails section in level 11, which ended up saving 9 frames over the next 3 levels.

Movement Optimisation.

Speed Control.

Basic speed is 3, with no subpixel value to worry about. The next best thing is the subspeed value, which gets truncated but nevertheless is constantly flickering and is still a crucial variable. The subvalue will be affected by how we choose to handle slopes, and we'll want to keep it as high as possible.

Landing Boosts

When falling from a significant height, Pond will gain a quick speed boost, which can increase our speed for anywhere between 1-3 frames according to our subspeed value. More ledges have been utilised in this run, and more effort was taken to make sure we get the maximum boost possible by landing when our subvalue is highest. Note that height difference is based our initial/final height, and so constant jumping doesn't work for constant boosts.

Pathfinding

Don't be fooled by the 'flat' ground, it's anything but, especially the yellow ground. Pond reacts to all the individual nooks and crannies formed by the pixels on the floor which results in constant flickering to acceleration and produces horribly inconsistent velocities across each section. This is always annoying to predict and to optimise to try to find paths which utilise as many of these potential floor boosts as possible in a given area, causing tonnes of strategies to test.

Preserved Y velocity.

Landing inside tight corridors doesn't reset Y velocity, which preserves it until falling off the next ledge. This can also be achieved by trying to 'fall faster' when in vertical ascenders, which can be seen on level 05.

Level improvements

Castle Movement.

Slightly better movement when going between entrances which are located on the left hand side, and the occasional window ledge can be used to give us extra landing boosts.

Level 01

Faster to jump onto the shoes and take advantage of the bumpy ground.

Level 02

Better initial jumps down the thin descents, and used Y Velocity conservation before the final end for a faster drop.

Level 03

Better final hit to the boss, which is the only one which matters.

Level 04

Generic improvements everywhere.

Level 05

Preserved Y velocity in area 4's tight corridors, to make each drop faster. Most noticeable just before the trampoline, where we can use the vertical ascender to 'fall', and keep velocity for when we drop off the next edge.

Level 06

Boss kept on screen at all times not delay invincibility countdown.

Level 07

Ejected from the bathtub earlier, to take advantage of the slope acceleration

Level 08

Generic improvements across all areas. Archanfel also discovered that the wheels can be delayed through camera manipulation, allowing one to be in prime position to bounce on to get to the next tier, saving over 200 frames.

Level 09

Boss kept on screen at all times not delay invincibility countdown.

Level 10

Special thanks to Archanfel for discovering it's possible to jump directly to the first exit, in addition to showing it's faster to reroute the bathtub through a bonus zone for a faster exit to the area.

Level 11

More speed boosts across bumpy things, involving a lot more effort put into testing combinations to get across all the various slopes. For the yellow area, killing the first bird was skipped, and after death respawn it's faster to just jump into the next corridor. When going across the piano, using HP for invincibility proved more useful at the start compared to when going down the slope. Afterwards, spare HP was then lost during the on-rails section, to reduce each subsequent level's score screen by 3 frames a piece.

Level 12

Laggy boss fight, but better timing on jumps reduced the end level sequence by 1 frame.

Level 13

A slightly faster start, and using the cannon to shoot into the platform provides a faster route. Afterwards, comes the most significant improvement of the run. There's just enough room to squeeze the plane into the bottom of the platform, which means we can grab both penguins on each side with only a single trip, cutting out two of the four chambers and saving nearly 20 seconds.

Level 14

Better manipulation of the boss gives a faster start to the first hit.
Extra special thanks for Archanfel for spotting improvements which allowed me to optimise an additional 533 frames across levels 08 and 10. I would like to request recognition for his efforts on the description page for the publication.

Memory: Judging
Memory: So entertainment seems pretty good and on the surface optimization looks pretty good too.
Unfortunately as it turns out this TAS in fact clears some optional levels that are not required to beat the game. This would be acceptable as a form of all levels if not for the fact that this does not beat all of the levels in the game. What this TAS does is beat all the levels that looked required. This means this submission is in an awkward middle ground where it is neither fastest completion nor full completion. The author intends to do the secret levels now, which I feel would warrant an entirely new submission as this could have a dramatic impact on the perceived entertainment value. I asked if they would like to cancel but have not received any response.
There is one other problem as well. The discovery that a large number of levels were in fact optional has delayed this submission's judgment until December 31st. This means that we have in fact FAILED to save Christmas in time. This to me seals this submission's fate.
Rejecting for failing to save Christmas.

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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #6193: Flip's Genesis James Pond 2: Codename: RoboCod in 23:39.58
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Excellent improvements Flip! Especially huge skip with penguins in level 13. Ejection from the bathtub in 07 to get slope, and several visually noticeable improvements in others levels were also cool! Everything looks great. Yes vote.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
Dimon12321
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Wow, this game is so cute! Yes vote.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
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I remember in this game that in a window of the clastle there are secret levels and when you finish these levels you unlock the door of the last ones... right? I'm not remember correctly (my memories of childhood are very vague).
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
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Evil_3D wrote:
I remember in this game that in a window of the clastle there are secret levels and when you finish these levels you unlock the door of the last ones... right? I'm not remember correctly (my memories of childhood are very vague).
Yeah there are two secret levels, you can get access to them from the roof (pic attached.) The first secret level is boring autoscroller at train. But the second secret level is truly amazing, probably it is the best in whole game, sad that devs do not included it for main list...
Evil_3D wrote:
They unlock doors of the castle when you finish them right?
No, all other doors will stay locked.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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They unlock doors of the castle when you finish them right? they can be used for the any% run or count as a cheat? I have to download the rom and check. Btw I really liked the run, Yes vote of course.
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
nymx
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Never heard of this game before, but it sure was fun to watch. Yes vote.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
Post subject: Re: #6193: Flip's Genesis James Pond 2 in 23:39.58
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Flip wrote:
Pond is just in time to save Christmas, and save a nice 2450 frames over the previous TAS while he's at it.
Oh no, Christmas is still in danger! Even more frames can be saved. I found two new improvements in Christmas World (Door#10) and saved yet 317 frames. Link to video -The first improvement is at 10-1, it is possible to gain enough speed to be able jump directly to the last platform (-139) -The second improvement is at 10-3, it is faster to use bonus level as shortcut (-178) Here input file with new improvements: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/51957325984202459 If Flip will agree to add me as a co-author he can use this file to update submission. If Flip do not want me as co-author he is free to take this improvement as a Christmas gift. So update submission anyway.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Alright, I checked and the secret levels don't unlock doors, but I have a great doubt, if a "all levels" TAS is created including both secret levels should obsolete the "any%" TAS in this game like happened on the tinny toons movie with the new rule?
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
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Excellent work, I know my initial attempts to bridge that gap failed. Further investigation shows it's possible to save even more frames, I've eliminated the airtime hovering for another 6 frames shaved off, plus 2 more frames on the bath ride. Please can the judges update it with movie instead. Second attempt (obsolete) I'd like to offer you special thanks for your efforts, which has certainly helped make this movie even better.
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Flip wrote:
Pond is just in time to save Christmas, and save a nice 2775 frames over the previous TAS while he's at it.
Oh no, Christmas is still in danger!! Even more frames can be saved. Again. I found the third improvement, in room 8-3 from Games World (Door#8) which can save yet about 200+ frames: Link to video Playing normally is impossible to execute this jump becouse of wheel always appear too early. But there is a way to overcome this obstracle: spawn of wheel is depend on camera position, so by manipulating camera is possible to delay a wheel a little bit and make this wonderful jump possible! P.S. I wonder is three improvements which allowed to save over eight seconds is already a decent contribution to count me as full-fledged co-author or it is still not enough to melt your ice heart and take me into the team?
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
EZGames69
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I think Archanfel should be co-authored at this point, there so much improvement found by him that I just think it makes sense to add him.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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Well if you need to come to a stop to let the camera pan, it's better to wedge yourself into the slope rather than skidding to a halt on flat ground. That, plus using another landing boost :) Link to video Unfortunately, this is not a nice edit; you probably know this as you didn't also provide a movie link this time. This messes up position and speed subvalues such that it doesn't nicely connect into the previous movie, plus the birds are in different positions on the subsequent tiers. Still worth redoing it though, as it is a significant improvement, so sadly this will delay this submission. And in regards to authorship...you may have an EXTRA special thanks? Thank you for pointing out the potential improvements, but the fact is I've still managed to improve your suggestions even further, to the point where the current run is still 100% my input. Maybe the description on the run's page can certainly give you recognition for your efforts, but I disagree with promoting you to a co-author as a result.
Memory
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I'll replace the file in the submission once I am provided a new one, no real point in updating it now when there are known improvements.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Flip wrote:
And in regards to authorship...you may have an EXTRA special thanks? Thank you for pointing out the potential improvements, but the fact is I've still managed to improve your suggestions even further, to the point where the current run is still 100% my input. Maybe the description on the run's page can certainly give you recognition for your efforts, but I disagree with promoting you to a co-author as a result.
There are no exact rules about crediting other users contribution, instead each one have their inner feel of what is justise. It is your submission so you have right to decide is it worth to add me as co-author or not. I do not wanted to start frame war at Christmas and thought it would be much better to reveal all these improvements to you now instead of doing new submission later...
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Flip wrote:
This messes up position and speed subvalues such that it doesn't nicely connect into the previous movie, plus the birds are in different positions on the subsequent tiers. Still worth redoing it though, as it is a significant improvement, so sadly this will delay this submission.
You should take in mind on doing the secret levels too, if anyone in the future will planning to do all levels as "full completion" this movie will get obsolete due to the new rule changes, like happened here. I asked for the confirmation of a judge some replys above, but nobody answered me, but I think you understand.
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I managed to save 209 frames through this technique, but had to sacrifice 1 frame over the remaining level in order to get it to synchronise properly. A very minimal sacrifice considering what could go wrong, so I'm perfectly happy with that. Main submission text updated accordingly. Improved Submission (Obsolete) Encode
Archanfel wrote:
I do not wanted to start frame war at Christmas and thought it would be much better to reveal all these improvements to you now instead of doing new submission later...
Well in the interest of fairness, the improvements you've found are new techniques, rather than better optimisations. This means that if you did decide to stay silent on the new improvements and simply submit your own run, you would ultimately be wasting your time. I could just investigate the new techniques further, and discover that there are improvements. I could also simply stay silent on my optimisations of your new techniques, and then submit my own movie afterwards. It would effectively be the same end result of me having sole authorship, but at least doing it now saves everybody some time. I would only consider sharing if you found something which I cannot improve upon, because then I would admit it's a tie, as opposed to me being in the lead. And Evil_3D, there's plenty of areas skipped which we could have seen by taking different routes, but the point is to defeat the final boss as fast as possible, as such this is an any% run, rather than 100% or an 'all areas' run.
Post subject: Re: Submission v1.3
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Flip wrote:
Well in the interest of fairness, the improvements you've found are new techniques, rather than better optimisations.
Exactly so. And i consider new techniques to be more valuable improvements comparing to simple optimisations.
Flip wrote:
I would only consider sharing if you found something which I cannot improve upon, because then I would admit it's a tie, as opposed to me being in the lead.
Ok, if you ask to demonstrate better optimisations - you will get it.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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I could swear I had brought up this question before, but a search proved fruitless: Since this is an any% run, as opposed to 100%, shouldn't the optional zones be skipped? Some doors do not need to be entered in order for the next doors to unlock. Or would skipping them count as deliberate cheating? It's not much different from what's done in the first zone anyway, when a runner uses the "secret" exit to finish it in a matter of seconds.
I'm Espyo from the SRB2 Forums. Current project: A Pikmin fan engine, Pikifen
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Flip wrote:
Pond is just in time to save Christmas, and save a nice 2983 frames over the previous TAS while he's at it.
Oh no, Christmas is still in danger!!! As always even more frames can be saved. I found minor optimisation in 2-2 from Teddy World: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/52044428343453101 Only 2 frames was saved here, it just a dust after "Big 3" previous improvements, but nevertheless it still can be considered as "better optimisation" which asked by Flip. --- Sidenote: would be nice to have names of levels in submission text. Door 1 - Sports World Door 2 - Teddy World Door 3 - Boss 1: Giant Teddy Door 4 - Sweet World Door 5 - Industrial World Door 6 - Boss 2: Giant Car Door 7 - Bathroom World Door 8 - Games World Door 9 - Boss 3: The Queen of Hearts Door 10 - Christmas World Door 11 - Music World Door 12 - Boss 4: Body-positive Ballerina Door 13 - Circus World Door 14 - Final Boss: Evil Snowman
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Upon investigation, it appears Espyo was correct, Levels 1 and 4 can indeed be skipped for some reason, the subsequent levels can be entered early without completing them, which is stupid. It seems they should be edited out as well, since otherwise it seems pretty arbitrary to keep them in. Strange how that wasn't properly sorted in the previous submission, oh well.
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Flip wrote:
Upon investigation, it appears Espyo was correct, Levels 1 and 4 can indeed be skipped for some reason, the subsequent levels can be entered early without completing them, which is stupid. It seems they should be edited out as well, since otherwise it seems pretty arbitrary to keep them in.
Upon further investigation turned out that Level 8 is also not necessary to visit. It mean that the third (and the most beautiful) improvement from "Big 3" is absolutely useless :( May be to have more content, instead of skipping these doors would be better to complete remaining two secret doors as Evil_3D suggested? And call it "All doors"?
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell) Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Archanfel wrote:
May be to have more content, instead of skipping these doors would be better to complete remaining two secret doors as Evil_3D suggested? And call it "All doors"?
Personally I want to see the secret candy world, speially the jelly segment and see James bumping everywhere. I was thinking work on this game at some point as "all doors" but I think it's better if you both do it now. Maybe doing the first world normally instead of taking the pole exit at the begining will be a nice way to add more content too.
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
Memory
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Would the movement around the hub be particularly different with/without the optional stages?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
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Not at all. The route already effective drops through it when going to the final 2 levels anyway, so hub routing isn't the problem. I would prefer an All Doors TAS to an Any% TAS at this rate, just so our efforts on the skippable levels are not entirely wasted. Obviously the problem is that I'll need to do the 2 extra levels, which I am currently progressing on.