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Posted: 6/19/2005 3:28 AM
Post subject: Mega Man Zero
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Gigafrost
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Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
I guess it's about time that I gave up on the Silent Hill 3 speedrun. I just keep not using the spare time I actually do get. So, that means it's back to something that can be done in chunks, a tool-assisted run, and right now Mega Man Zero sounds the best to me. I already played with it a bit last weekend and thought about it a bit. Although I'm more interested in a Hard Mode 100% score run, a fast-as-possible run through might be interesting as well. Info for the fast-as-possible run? Well, about the only abnormal idea I'd present is to allow the runner to skip levels. IE, the path would exactly be: -Intro Stage -Aztec Falcon Stage -Resuce Shuttle mission; use Escape Unit -Dual in Desert mission; use Escape Unit -Base invasion; defeat Hanumachine -Final Level 1 -Final Level 2 -Final Level 3 ***FIN*** (Basically, you'd fail those two missions, and failing the Desert Dual mission causes the Hanumachine invasion to happen.) However, I'm more interested in a full score hard mode run. This is the intro stage run I made last sunday: http://www.kraftfam.org/~erk/nesvideos/mmz.zip Note that it takes a minimum of 55 enemies to get a full score on this level. I believe I know the memory address that keeps track of kills and I'm experimenting with it to find out exactly how many enemies I need to kill. Also note that I'm starting over to try a few new strategies AND to make sure I have lag reduction turned on this time... ^.^;; (I was also wondering if it'd be faster to deal with the spider sacks by jumping over them and killing them while moving away but it occured to me that I can't do that because Ciel can't take any damage...just fyi in case y'all think of it as well...) Oh. And a definate strategy to use against Hanumachine... http://www.kraftfam.org/~erk/nesvideos/mmzh.zip Again, right now I'm reworking the intro stage with lag reduction on. Also, if somebody else (Zurreco?) is working on a hard mode 100% score run, do let me know. :)
07-24-2009: 2595 anime DVDs and counting...
Posted: 6/19/2005 5:08 AM
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mikwuyma
Joined: 12/20/2004
Posts: 226
I noticed you found the stupidly broken slashing trick. This trick not only works against Hanumachine, but it works against ALL bosses that can be hit with a ground slash. It's more effective against some bosses than others, but with luck manipulation it could be effective against all bosses. If you're wondering why I didn't use this trick in my S-rank run, it's because I discovered this after I did the run =(. They fixed this bug/exploit in the later Zero games. I actually considered doing a fast as possible speedrun, failing a bunch of missions, but I thought it would be boring. Maybe I should try it sometime since I only have to fail two missions. Some notes: -I can understand S-rank, but why 100% score? It would just mean killing more enemies and it makes no difference in your overall ranking. -If you're still going to go with 100%, then here are two numbers for enemy ranking I can remember off the top of my head. Rescue Colbor: 15 enemies Destroy Train: 19 enemies -Since this is from SRAM won't this be rejected by default? I would like to see a hard mode run (even though it doesn't make much difference in this game due to the slash trick), but I thought the movies had to be from power on, not SRAM. -If you're going for S-rank hardmode, I suggest you do the retrieve data mission first. It's the fastest way to get the shield boomerang, which will help you take care of bosses that can't be hit by the ground slash. -I found a way to jump on the submarines in Stop the Hacking. It involves using the triple rod, and I have a demonstration here. This trick is useless in a normal mode run or a fast as possible hard mode run, but it might have some use in an S-rank hard mode run (since you will want the shield boomerang anyways). You might be able to optimize this trick by hitting the fish instead of luring the squid upwards. I'll post more stuff, like boss AI patterns later.
Posted: 6/19/2005 5:15 AM
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Wren
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Joined: 4/11/2005
Posts: 196
Location: Michigan
No, hard mode is a BAD idea. Since it's an unlocked feature most people wont be able to watch it. Stick with normal mode but do everything else you planned.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
Posted: 6/19/2005 5:51 AM
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IMPblackbelt
Joined: 6/19/2005
Posts: 180
It takes a extremely long time to get the Triple Rod and Boomerang Shield (about 30 seconds each, if I remember correctly, which I probably don't). A friend of mine tested a time comparison between the time getting the Triple Rod and doing the enemy bounce trick to shortcut the subs. It takes more time to get the weapon than the trick saves. Of course, this wasn't a tool-assisted run, but the difference was quite large. I wouldn't recommend going for either weapon unless you're in the general area. The Boomerang Shield only really helps for having early element chip attacks, and the Triple Rod is good for bouncing. Unless someone thinks of something else useful that can save decent time, then I recommend steering clear of both of those weapons. I'd love to be proven wrong, though. :)
Posted: 6/19/2005 5:54 AM
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OmnipotentEntity
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Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2623
I thought the Triple Rod did more damage on the duel in the desert. But then again, taking the time to level it to where you can charge it you most certainly takes far longer.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Posted: 6/19/2005 6:00 AM
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Gigafrost
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
No, hard mode is a BAD idea. Since it's an unlocked feature most people wont be able to watch it.
Actually, since the SRAM data is stored in the movie, even people who haven't unlocked should be able to play the movie. Watching it is not the problem, but submitting it here is (see below).
I can understand S-rank, but why 100% score? It would just mean killing more enemies and it makes no difference in your overall ranking.
Mostly because I've wanted to see what it takes to get a perfect score. It felt like a better goal to me.
Since this is from SRAM won't this be rejected by default? I would like to see a hard mode run (even though it doesn't make much difference in this game due to the slash trick), but I thought the movies had to be from power on, not SRAM.
Double-checking the rules, it seems like this is the case. Therefore, I will work on this run solely for myself. If my goal also seems rediculous then it's no longer a problem either. Anyways, thanks for the various tips. They should be useful. :)
07-24-2009: 2595 anime DVDs and counting...
Posted: 6/19/2005 6:02 AM
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KaitouKid
Former player
Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 384
I feel your pain. Ninja Five-O has a Hard Mode only unlockable via beating the game. Stupid SRAM. All we wants to do is make even more impressive runs~! *wags fists at the heavens*
Posted: 6/19/2005 7:50 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Active player (277)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
So we get an Official SRAM Inspector System.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 6/19/2005 10:34 AM
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Truncated
Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (968)
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden
Arcade TAS of 2023 Sega TASer of 2021 Sega TAS of 2021
We could have official SRAMs for certain games which all runs have to start from. These would have to be from some trusted source. Upon submission the SRAM in the movie file can be compared to the standard one. Getting a verified SRAM from a trusted source for every game that needs them would be the main problem.
Posted: 6/19/2005 4:57 PM
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Xaphan
Former player
Joined: 5/24/2005
Posts: 405
Location: France
SRAM is a pain in the ass... I did a first attempt at megeman ZERO 4 in hard mode but nobody (or almost nobody) was able to watch it... Though it was a bad attempt ;) Getting SRAM is really hard indeed, i don't know where to find it...
Not dead yet... still very busy... damn...
Posted: 6/19/2005 5:07 PM
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Xaphan
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Joined: 5/24/2005
Posts: 405
Location: France
Moreover i forgot to tell you some points : - Imo Hard mode is a bad idea because it slows the whole thing, and normal mode offers many more possibilities masking a TA more interesting. -Trying to get S-rank slows also the TA a lot, as some people told me a "Time-attacker" should not care about getting S-rank. Just speed through the game :D - Once more forget Hard Mode :) - you should use the buster as much as you can because the game stops for a few frames when you kill an enemy with the saber, so you should only use it to defeat the bosses... (Yeah i know that you have to level up your weapons and it's quite annoying)... This is only a piece of advice because i didn't see your TA (I can't unfortunately)...
Not dead yet... still very busy... damn...
Posted: 6/19/2005 5:43 PM
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Spoony_Bard
Former player
Joined: 8/17/2004
Posts: 377
As for this game, perhaps there could be at least two different runs? One that quits missions to jump right to the end, and one that doesn't? I suppose it's up to Bisquit and the admin to decide whether or not an SRAM would be accetable for a Hard Mode run. Personally, I'd just like to see a run going through all the stages as fast as possible, not caring about Rank (but that's the choice of the player, to me getting an S-rank is only most impressive in a real-time speedrun, not a TAS), but, well, I just like to see the MMZ series tackled for real, period. :>
Posted: 6/19/2005 7:52 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
I am not working on a 100% run for this. If and when I get AoS warp version done (whenever I figure out how the soul drop software thing works), I'll start testing the game. However, anyone is free to take the game; it's not like we are calling dibs or anything. And no, I haven't found out anything super interesting from my testing. Most info I have came from Mike, and most of that info was either quickly refuted or supported within a day by Mike. Talk to him if you want expert advice. edit: for clarity, i would be doing a pure speed, non-rank run. this is if and when i get around to it
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Posted: 7/1/2005 2:31 PM
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Fnx
Joined: 5/31/2005
Posts: 8
Hey guys. I just made a little test run on MMZ... Out of boredom. I'm planning to do a much better one, but I'm not sure if I should do any level skipping. It will be faster but less eyecandy :) Anyways, this is a practise run, A-rank from every stage. I take damage to save time but there are mistakes too. I do a lot of little mistakes and a few major ones, like I get hit in a boss fight in Duel in the Desert. All I need is some suggestions and stuff, and I'll make a lot better run. :P http://koti.mbnet.fi/funxion/stuff/Megaman_Zero_practice_by_fnx.rar
Posted: 7/4/2005 2:26 AM
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Gigafrost
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
I wasn't able to watch it. It says something about "" being an invalid name or something. Anyways, I've been studying to see if it's really worth it to get the Triple Rod and Boomerang Shield. First thing to report: In my testing, it added 1379 frames to simply get the triple rod, not including whatever time I'd lose switching to it (74 frames to switch to, probably same to switch from). For questimation purposes, I assumed the Boomerang Shield would take about the same amount of time. Anyways, the only use for the Shield Boomerag would be the ability to hit bosses with elemental damage...unless it could also be used to hit Maha Ganesharrif (sp? unimportant, though) through his attacks in the final level rematch. I guess I haven't explored that yet, but I'll take a look later. Anyways, as far as getting it for elemental reasons, unless I'm simply forgetting a boss, the only place I found where it might save time would be the Leviathan battle MKII (where the arena is different.) I already explored fighting both Leviathan and Harpuia and I won't be able to gain anywhere near 23 seconds from them. So, is there any other problem boss one would use elemental attacks on? For the triple rod, I'll test that a bit. I've got a couple of ideas for good uses but I've still got to figure out how much time they'll actually save. Oh, and as for the extra\stray bullets in the videos, you can break out of the slashing a bit early by dashing, but you can break out earlier by shooting (however your next attack will be at the same frame as dashing to break out). The advantage of that is obviously more maneuverability. Anyways, I think those are the relevant things to report about that I don't think have been mentioned yet.
07-24-2009: 2595 anime DVDs and counting...
Posted: 7/4/2005 3:31 AM
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mikwuyma
Joined: 12/20/2004
Posts: 226
I haven't seen your boss battles yet (I'm on vacation), but I can think of a few boss battles that could be faster with the shield boomerang. First off, you know about the looping trick, right? If you don't it involves throwing the shield boomerang, dashing under it, then constantly jumping over it to force it in a loop. Pantheon Core is a lot faster with the lightning elemental, I'm sure with the shield boomerang you could save at least 10 seconds. Anubis Necromancess should be faster with the shield boomerang (maybe fire shield, slash, fire shield?) as long as you can get her to enter the ground one less time. Dodging the crushing walls takes forever. I just realized you can only fight one of these bosses with the shield boomerang due to how the mission paths work. Wouldn't the shield boomerang work well against Maha Ganesheriff the second time around? You can't ground slash him. Every boss could be finished slightly faster by throwing the shield boomerang at them after you're finished slashing them repeatedly because a charged up shield boomerang (with elemental weakness) does 9 points of damage opposed to the 4 points of damage from a slash. About Phantom, when you fight him the first time his pattern is soley determined by when you hit him. If you take the same actions every time you fight him you should get the same result everytime. For some reason the second time you fight Phantom his pattern also seems to be manipulated by when you enter the room, so you have more flexibility (or more painful luck manipulation). Sorry if this is just unhelpful rambling, but I hope some of it helps. IMPBlackbelt: Look more closely at my username :P. I suggested getting the shield boomerang because this is a hard mode run. Xaphan: I don't really support hard mode runs on the Zero series either, but with the slashing trick it won't be much slower than a normal mode run. Also, shield boomerang antics could be entertaining (if it actually does save time)
Posted: 7/4/2005 5:53 AM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
About the shield boomerang... Is the time it takes to get it better than the time it takes to just beat the bosses with saber and buster? To get the SB, you need to also accept the... 'spear' (arg, bad headache), not to mention go all the way down to engineering to get it. I think I'll start testing this game some more, now that my main PC is up (not online, yet) and that I am still waiting for an Aria soul system. Pure speed -> screw ranks and whatnot. As it stands, no elf seems to be worth using. I could be wrong, though. Maybe toss a small one on right after I get the saber, since that seems to be the only time that I am near a transerver during the whole game. I still haven't looked into elves too much, but I'm sure the whole game could be done with no damage, no elves, no talking to anyone (aside from Ciel and mission NPCs), etc etc. Like I said, I'm testing it still.
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Posted: 7/4/2005 4:03 PM
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Gigafrost
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
The Shield Boomerang can't be used to knock off a "little" time either unless it's always equipped. It takes 74 frames (probably 80 to switch elements) to switch to it, so it needs to knock off more than twice that (unless it's always equipped). It's a problem for me since I'm killing so many enemies; to remove the switching delay related to the boss fights I'd need the z-saber always equipped that that would be the weapon I'd have to slay enemies with. It'd only take only 20 enemies to get the same delay. I'm not giving up yet, though. I do need to see how much faster Maha Ganesherrif is, though, before I give up on it. I also need to estimate how much time is dropped from the submarine shortcut. On another note, the shield boomerang-faster-finish is only faster if I have to switch to air-born attacking at the end of the fight. This is because, according to my measurements, you're able to do damage every 20 frames using the standing-slash bug whereas the shield takes 119 frames to charge up and throw. However, I'll take note of that for other bosses. Also, the "rambling" is helpful even if it does turn out that the shield boomerang is slower. I mean, atm my goal is to determine it either way so I need somebody with good knowledge of these weapons. :)
07-24-2009: 2595 anime DVDs and counting...
Posted: 7/5/2005 12:48 AM
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mikwuyma
Joined: 12/20/2004
Posts: 226
Are you using attack mode B? If you aren't then you really should because it allows you to use two weapons at once without switching. It would allow you to use the shield boomerang for boss fights without needing to pause the game (except for changing elements), or shoot saber shots to destroy weak enemies without being paused a few frames by saber slashing. About charging the shield boomerang, you could do it while you're slashing the crap out of the boss. I just realized Copy-X's final form would also be faster with the shield boomerang due to his weakness to ice. Also take into consideration you fight Anubis Necromancess again in the final stage. I know the in-game time saved using the submarine shortcut is less than the time taken to collect the triple rod. I think it's about 12 seconds saved for the shortcut and around 30 seconds gained from collecting the triple rod, but this is at 100% speed, without taking menu pausing and slowdown (there is a lot of slowdown in Stop the Hacking) into consideration. Unless if you have some more ideas where the triple rod could save time it probably isn't worth it.
Posted: 7/5/2005 1:50 AM
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Zurreco
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Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
The boomerang is, essentially, not that important for this run. Sabre/Buster should be sufficient enough in Mode B, since they pretty much cover ever scenario except reflecting bullets or bouncing off of fish (the only great use for the triple rod). Keep in mind that it does take a more than marginal amount of time to go from Ciel to engineering and back, not to mention you would have to swap between Buster and Bomerang whenever it would be beneficial. As for Anubis and either of X's forms, a simple 1-2 combo of full charged sabre slashes and a wave of charged/uncharged buster shots will make the shield tactic useless. Not to mention that, essentially, both fights are too mobile to really abuse the loop. As for X-Angel.... well, I have yet to ever defeat him yet, but I've barely tried on console and... yeah. I'm currently doing my new test run. About to kill the elephant dude. Obviously, I'm using mike's route for my route, since his seems to be the fastest one out there. That, and he's done enough research to make me say 'yes sir'.
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Posted: 7/5/2005 3:02 AM
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mikwuyma
Joined: 12/20/2004
Posts: 226
Sorry Zurreco I should have been more specific. I was actually talking about Gigafrost's hard mode run. It definitely isn't worth it to collect the shield boomerang in normal because of the time it takes to collect it, and the charged slash does more damage. One question, if you're going for fast as possible rankless, how are you going to deal with leveling up the saber? It's a huge pain in the ass in this game. P.S. If you want to talk to Ciel, simply tap up. You don't have to get close like I did to talk to her.
Posted: 7/5/2005 4:01 PM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
a) A hard mode run requires you to beat the game first, right? Unless that movie is being made with SRAM and isn't shooting to be accepted, I don't see the point. b) I am not concerned about the saber. I will be using it almost exclusively, so it should get the charge ability before I fight Anubis/Blizzag. I will use the buster enough to get a yellow-charge shot capability so that I can speed up certain fights (read: Anubis, Harpuia, ...err... red gun guardian dude, etc.). Granted, I won't have fast charge saber, which sucks because it makes the water guardian and a bunch of other bosses have almost no chance to mix it up in a fight, but I should have a charge when I seriously need it the most. c) You can chat with Ciel almost immediately after any mission, so I'm not worried about that. If you've ever seen me use frame advance, you would simultaneously say "ok, it seems like you have the basics under control" and vomit all over me in disgust. Or something... Unfortunately, I made a boo boo against the Golem and I have to kinda go all the way back there to fix it. Oh well; it should be ~0.5 seconds faster. edit: mike, I have both a question and a favor for you. If I simply shoot my buster, do I get weapon exp? If I shoot and hit an enemy, but don't kill them, will I get weapon exp? Also, can you research how many strikes with the saber/buster it takes to level them up? Anything/everything will help. I would look into these personally, but I work 9 hour days (at work right now) and am still in the process of moving in to my new place. Thanks. Probably should've PMd you, but maybe someone else will see this before you.
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Posted: 7/5/2005 7:50 PM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
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Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Zurreco wrote:
a) A hard mode run requires you to beat the game first, right? Unless that movie is being made with SRAM and isn't shooting to be accepted, I don't see the point.
Either we're changing the rules... Or the run plays through the game twice! Yay!
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 7/6/2005 1:57 AM
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Gigafrost
Former player
Joined: 5/3/2004
Posts: 366
I guess I hadn't played around with weapon mode B enough. An interesting side effect happens when you use the shield and the saber at the same time, namely you can attack with the saber about 4 frames faster. I suppose that combined with the element + charge would speed up a boss fight. I'll do some active testing against Harpuia and Leviathan at some point to see how much I can gain using the shield. The main problem I was seeing was that if I don't spend the 160 frames switching two\from the shield, I have to leave it equipped with something else. If it's not a boss fight then the beam saber will cause me to lose 4 frames min per kill, but if I leave it with the buster the boss fight times will possibly double. Well, all I know is I want to figure all of that out before I continue. Zurreco, I mentioned earlier in the thread that since it's not going to be accepted I'm simply going to do it for myself. However, I guess BoMF is really interested in that run. For that, I guess I'll post my latest progress. http://www.kraftfam.org/~erk/nesvideos/mmz.zip It only goes past Aztec Falcon, naturally.
07-24-2009: 2595 anime DVDs and counting...
Posted: 7/6/2005 3:06 AM
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Zurreco
Former player
Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
Giga, why not make a full 100pt S rank normal movie? Skip elves and weapons, though. I'm still kinda upset that killing someone with the sabre creates one frame of lag. Oh well... Up to Aztec Falcon as well. 4:4x:xx, because that computer is somewhere not here.
hi nitrodon streamline: cyn-chine
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