1 2
5 6
Posted: 3/2/2006 1:55 AM
(Edited: 10/28/2006 1:37 PM)
Post subject: Kirby's Dream Land 3
Quote
Anon
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 275
So I was thinking, and this would be a nice game to TAS. There's a nice variety of levels, six animals to mess around with, and two runs to be made: a minimalist, and a 100%. (And for those that just like having fun but dun wanna submit anything, there's always the boss attack.) Just my two cents. Now if you excuse me, I'm going back to lursking.
Posted: 3/2/2006 4:38 AM
Quote
4matsy
Joined: 4/25/2004
Posts: 498
Oh god YES. 2-player 100% plzkthx. ^^' For anyone interested in actually undertaking this:
    - Coo (the owl) seems to be the fastest animal helper; obviously, if that's the case, he should be abused as often as possible. (Maybe except underwater? Probably Kine (the fish)'s territory, that.) - Kirby can kill Gooey instantly simply by quick repeated mashing of the A button. <_< Since spawning Gooey takes 1 block of health from Kirby, this could be a quick way to get Kirby down to low health if death turns out to be a shortcut and no pits are available. (Though I doubt that situation would ever arise...)
Posted: 10/25/2006 5:55 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I will undertake this, I believe 100% is the way to go and I'll look at 2-player, playing 2 player has always seemed daunting to me but if someone can give me a tutorial on making a TAS with 2-players that'd be great. This game is so similar to Kirby 64, so I'll TAS both games. At what parts is 2 players faster?
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/25/2006 6:48 AM
(Edited: 10/25/2006 6:58 AM)
Quote
nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
I don't know if there's any tutorial on 2-player... conceptually it's the same as making a 1-player TAS except you have twice as many buttons to use. In the 2-player segments of the Kirby TAS I did, I found it helped to concentrate on whichever player needed to be doing the most complicated thing at the time, and using the "autohold" keys to make the other player move in the right direction and/or jump while I was doing that. That way it was more like making a 1-player run; you still have to check that both players are doing the right thing, but you don't always need to be controlling them both directly. I'm not sure how much 2 players would help in this particular game, but as long as it won't make it slower overall then it's probably better to use 2 players. EDIT: But if there's nowhere player 2 would help significantly, it's quite possible it would make it slower overall, because of extra pause effects.
Posted: 10/25/2006 6:52 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I think that Gooey does not help much... I think Kirby can take this game on his own no problem. Getting the heart pieces is straighfoward (unlike Kirby 64's shards) and I didn't initially see any ways for 2 players to speed things since there weren't any switches or copius amount of enemies to deal with. Also, since I'll be multitasking with 4 TASes doing one with 2 player will make it harder for me. Edit: Gooey apparently is helpful for the last battle of Dark Matter phase 3. But I'll let the CPU do that, or that might be the only time that I control 2 players. Undecided. Last thing: is sliding or running faster? His slide is way better than in Kirby 64 and I'm wondering if this is going to be another slide movie
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/25/2006 12:12 PM
Quote
Anon
Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 275
It'd be better to control Gooey in the final battle instead of letting the CPU have control of it. The CPU is pretty weaksauce, and it'll be dead within a few seconds after it's onscreen. Not sure on sliding vs. running, seeing that the mystical art of frame advance is lost on me. However, it seems to me that running and sliding are both the same speed, with the only difference being that sliding has a short pause in between slides; this might be able to be eliminated via frame advancing. Just the observations of someone who decided to run through the first stage without tools for five minutes.
Posted: 10/25/2006 11:46 PM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Sliding also has the problem of not actually destroying enemies, and you can easily overshoot a doorway or hit a wall, which bounces you backwards. I also noticed the screen does not scroll very fast, making constant sliding/running giving you a split second chance before you see/avoid an enemy.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/26/2006 1:58 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Sliding is faster, in the very first level I tested how many frames to run into the first enemy compared to sliding into the first enemy and sliding was 6 frames faster. Running is also pretty fast too, so in sections where sliding is bad running will be used. Did some more testing, jumping does not increase speed at all, and by trying to get to the next enemy, comparing all sliding vs. all running/jumping over enemies running was only 1 frame behind. Sliding probably should be used to make reaching one area where the slide "stop" effect does not take place, such as entering a door or sliding off of a ledge. Also none of the abilities really increase speed, the fire could've but because of the way the game scrolls and you can run pretty much on the right side of the screen the fire only goes for a short time when going on the far right. The animals I haven't tested yet, but some may be faster. Just made a microsoft document with pictures of all the heart piece places from a FAQ I found, so the route is mostly laid out. Will try a few more test runs and see what happens.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/26/2006 2:10 AM
Quote
NrgSpoon
Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646
I think having Gooey in some places could still have some use. Mainly at any place where you need to get something in a different direction from the doors, for example the animal rooms. You could use Gooey to get the helper, have Kirby exit through the door the instant after, and swap out on the opposite side of the door. Last I checked though, KDL3 had transparency bugs with our version of Snes9x.
I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.
Posted: 10/26/2006 2:28 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Hm, good things to consider. I'm using Nitsuja's Snes9x 1.43 +9, and so far no problems. I did make a wonderful find- Coo is in fact the fastest animal, because turbo A makes him fly extremely fast, like extremely, much faster than running, although it is hard to control. I think the turbo buttons in this game will have good affect, and selectively using Gooey occassionally with 2 player control. Now I have to set the controls of the second controller... Coo/turbo tests This is me fooling around with turbo in this game. Obviously it is done sloppily, I was doing it both with normal speed and FA, using only a mere 7 rerecords. I show examples, normal and then by using turbo/Frame Advance. Floating is optimized with kirby with turbo A, and turbo A gives fastest Coo movement, which aesthetically looks faster than normal running. Can anyone verify if this is the fastest movement possible in the game? I also tested out Frame Advance sliding and running, turning corners and jumping quickly from run to slide and vice versa, as well as finding that when standing still, move in one direction for 4 frames, release that direction one frame, and hold the direction the next frame to go into running animation the fastest.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/26/2006 3:49 AM
(Edited: 10/26/2006 4:48 AM)
Quote
NrgSpoon
Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646
The first issue you'll get is the water in level 4. EDIT: I meant transparency issue.
I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.
Posted: 10/26/2006 4:03 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Of course I'm going to switch to Kine for that, and switching for all the other animals I need for getting the heart pieces... but in all other cases should turbo Coo be used? Can Gooey enter doors and therefore make both him, kriby and animals enter door too? This would be best application of Gooey in levels, as well as going out of way to reach goals/items In that case how do I control Gooey when he's off stage? Can he go off stage? I'm thinking two emulators up and running, and find the frame range that Kirby has to do something and within that range create input on the second controller for Gooey to reach the object, and copy that input? How do I splice together input like that? I ask Nitsuja specifically because if it worked like that it would be extremely similar to your Sonic 2 2-player run.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/26/2006 4:57 AM
Quote
nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
With Coo, there's a trick that lets you move diagonally faster than you did in that test. Press B and sideways, then on the next frame press up or down (but not also sideways), then keep holding sideways (but not up or down) and pressing B every other frame. It's probably about 1.41 times faster than holding up+right or whatever directions the entire time. You should almost never be holding up or down except when you need to go straight down. It's still not faster to move diagonally instead of straight when you don't need to move diagonally. When using autofire, make sure the first press of the B button happens on the first possible frame that will move you, otherwise you could lose a frame whenever you start moving.
comicalflop wrote:
Can Gooey enter doors and therefore make both him, kriby and animals enter door too?
Yes, that's what happens.
comicalflop wrote:
Can he go off stage?
I think the only way to keep Gooey someplace off of the screen is to have him use the Rock ability, otherwise he will teleport to where Kirby is. And he can't move then, although he can enter doors even if they're far offscreen (which could save time if you ever need to backtrack to a door on a different screen in the same part of the level). I don't think you'll need to be splicing any input.
Posted: 10/26/2006 5:43 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Interesting, I noticed that pressing left or right only once shoots you in that direction, you don't have to keep holding right or left to go right or left. and down or up just one frame brings you in the respective direction. This is quite interesting stuff. I'm wondering, how I should fly through levels; at the top, bottom or barely passing by enemies by one frame? (I must say the hit detections is worse than DKC2, and someplaces get really tight so it's gonna be tough squeezing through without stopping to swallow an enemy to spit at a monster blocking the way Hopefully I'll get the 2 player thing worked out, it's not for difficult sections but we'll see what happens. This run definetly on my to complete list.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/27/2006 2:11 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Did a test run of the first two levels: Kirby Dreamland 3 Test run Level 1-2 The first level had only 3 parts where I had to slow down slightly, level 2 had a few tiny areas that weren't as fast, because this is a test run it's no biggie but good to figure out what slows me down what doesn't. Any thoughts on what can be faster?
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/29/2006 11:50 PM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I just did some 2 player testing, and Gooey makes a very poor second character to use because, once you don't need him anymore it takes time to: if using him as CPU, make him disappear or swallow him if using as a second player, you can't make him disappear and he'll slow you down, especially if riding an animal buddy So I think I'm just going to use him at the final fight and that's it, it doesn't take too long to grab an animal and head out the door, too bad Gooey is not as useful as he would be, and if only he'd go away when you don't need him more.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/30/2006 1:46 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Here's level 2 completed Grassland level 2 Found some time savers compared to the test run, and discovered that swallowing an enemy and shooting it in midair does not lose any speed, good to know
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/30/2006 5:24 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Grassland level 3 complete As expected, Coo turbo flying is very fast. and I have decided to not use Gooey unless it really saves a lot of time to use him, so this is going to be the lamest (not in a bad way) 2 player TAS ever. And now it is a takes damage to save time run as well. Abusing Coo throughout the run as much as possible is going to be best, except of course when I have to get some other animal to get a heart piece. The next level is going to be tricky, because of the caves with very low ceilings :( but I did a test of the boss fight, and Coo with stone is a very fast boss fight indeed (and that was unassisted) After this, I'll probably do an any% run abusing Coo like the speedy owl he is. It'll be very similar to Kirby's Adventure NES, with the abuse of UFO.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/31/2006 6:40 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Grassland Level 4 complete Definetly the fastest and most fun level so far. Navigating in the caves was no trouble at all- I don't think there were any time wasters, in fact several time-savers were found. Of note: In the first room outside, Coo slides down some blocks against each other to create a very weird sliding affect down the pyramid blocks Using Stone for fast vertical descent- saved maybe 10-20 frames Swallowing an enemy mid flight does not slow down speed if you get as close to the enemy as possible Mini Boss fight- Oh my god I loved this. The invincibility unfortunately makes the music not play, but I hit the boss on the first possible frame with stone to kill him very fast. More caves- found fastest way to hit those blocks and keep going as Coo- took damage twice, the first time strangely, by getting hit and the next frame mounting Coo you don't have the knock backwards affect of being hit Thoughts on run so far?
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 10/31/2006 6:59 AM
Quote
NrgSpoon
Joined: 6/14/2004
Posts: 646
Do you see what I mean about the transparency issue now? Unless there's a newer version of snes9x I should be using... Also, why DID you take damage on that spot in level 3? You should be able to inhale them through the wall during the descent with no speed loss. You Won't get crushed if you do it in the right spots.
I like my "thank you"s in monetary form.
Posted: 10/31/2006 7:06 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Hm, maybe I can hex edit that in, you can get almost all 4 pigs in one gulp but I died... and I dunno about the whole transparency issue, it doesn't bother me too much and in the later water levels I think the water does natually become transparent for you to see better, I remember seeing clearly in test runs of the water levels. I think that only small bodies of water are solid blue, because precise maneuvering inside them is not nescessary. But I could be wrong.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 11/1/2006 4:50 AM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I have systematically tested every way to swallow those 4 enemies, and it is an impossible feat. Reason: they're so close together that when Kirby starts sucking, he won't stop until he has them all, and the ceiling will kill you before you finish the last one. I spent at least a hundred rerecords trying to do this one shortcut, from many different places, so I am sticking with the time saver of taking damage.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 11/1/2006 9:24 AM
(Edited: 11/8/2006 3:47 AM)
Quote
nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1300)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Who said you have to swallow all 4 of them? It's possible to survive doing that, but you only need to get 1 or 2 of them to avoid taking damage there. Here is a quick demo of it. Also, you can press 3 to see through the water. EDIT: Maybe it would be better to wait until the next Snes9x is released, which fixes that transparency issue. The broken transparency in this game completely obscures a lot more things than I thought, which wouldn't look good in a published movie. EDIT2: If you're really set on continuing, I think it is possible to fix it in the emulator without breaking synchronization before encoding, but it would be nice to not need to do that...
Posted: 11/1/2006 6:17 PM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Hmm, I couldn't actually get Kirby to shoot them out like that, I was trying to get something like that accomplished so kudos for getting that to work, so I'll try it again today and see if I can get it.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 11/1/2006 6:48 PM
Quote
Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (730)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
Alrighty just got a V2 that enters the door at frame 17744, having sucked in 3 of those guys and still getting to the door before the last one gets close. So now just to start hex editing and splice that in.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
1 2
5 6