Often in a TAS, we have to do the exact opposite of what is required in a normal playthrough. To save 13 minutes on the previously accepted movie, I kill less enemies, and more playable characters. Additionally, new strategies for 3 boss battles, and a computer algorithm to optimize cursor movement add up to 45K frames of saving.

MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS/CHANGES

  • Max Leaving the village
  • Balbazak battle
  • Mishaela Battle
  • Dark Dragon Battle
  • Overall: Less force members per battle (see battle 9,15,16,24)

Minor (Notable) Changes

  • Zombie in CH2-B2 no longer requires 2 hits
  • Boost Spell cast less often
  • Power Spear purchased
  • Speed ring picked up
  • Long Sword picked up
  • 2 less promotions
  • Valkrye and Halberd ignored
  • Less enemies killed

Almost unnoticeable:

Every battle order was chosen by an optimization algorithm. Upthorn commented on the last video, noting that the cursor movement was optimized 'to the best of your ability'. I realized that I could not do it as well as a computer could. Now, I have a new algorithm that takes the start and end location of each enemy/player, and calculates the time to move from one place to the next, and tells me the lowest. The available battle orders are still first trimmed down by necessary order components, such as a player going before or after an enemy. (Additionally, the step of grouping is removed, since the computer algorithm already takes that into account.) For the most part, the computer seems to find circles of cursor movement, that would have been impossible to locate via human techniques.

Inspiration

I restarted this movie for 2 main reasons. The first being Max leaving town. I hated how poorly that had been done in the previous video. Secondly, Earnest appeared to be useless through the majority of the game. Then, as I continued the run, I started to notice how other force members were dragging the team down. Thus, I analyzed who did what job, and then figured out who could be eliminated. As it turns out, very few characters are needed when you have near full control of the game.

Balancing Experience

Last movie I was very, very, very lucky in how the experience levels turned out. This time, I purposely had to be very exact in my planning on how many enemies each character killed. Additionally, killing fewer enemies meant less experience overall. The main reason for this is BOOST balancing. If a character is boosted with zero experience, that character can kill a maximum of 6 enemies before losing the BOOST (see glitches from previous submission) This is very important for battle 20 and 22. Additionally, I needed to balance experience of Max so he could do the perfect Mishaela kill, before he reached level 4. If he had reached level 4 before this, the archers would have blocked the way to her, since his turn would have been forced before theirs. Additionally, experience is balanced so no one gains a level on the last head of Dark Dragon.

Speed Ring

Grabbed in the second chapter, and not really used (abused) until the 7th. Since so few levels are gained, the biggest gap as the game progresses is Agility. Thus, to make up the later chapters, the Agility ring is used in battles 10,21,23,25,27 and 28. Almost always used in the last round, it skips many enemy turns that would either attack, or simply take extra time. (Including the Laser Eye countdown!)

Mishaela

Going into the Mishaela fight, I knew I needed 2 things. First, being a character who could move within reach of Mishaela, and be strong enough to kill her. Boosted Max equipped with the broad sword and mobility ring meets this criteria. Second, the character needs to have at least 22 agility. This is the minimum agility for a character to have a turn before her. Additionally, I wanted Max's agility low in the first round, so that he could go AFTER the 3 archers, as mentioned previously. Thus, he starts the round, equips the mobility ring, moves into place, and then switches to the speed ring, bringing his agility from 18 to 22. Next round, he switches back to the mobility ring, and moves in for the kill.

Balbazak and the Cursed Power Spear

Once again, this battle was fully dependent on someone being able to move fast enough, and long enough. Last rendition, I had to kill most of the enemies in the battle to get close enough, fast enough. This run, I had planned ahead, and picked up the Power Spear. (This was the only PLANNED reason for the purchase.) This gives me the chance to avoid killing 7 enemies! The only enemies that are killed are the ones that would have either blocked Earnest's path, or attacked otherwise. The spear seems cursed, however, as whoever has it seems to die, and sometimes fairly quickly! The reality is, Mae takes the Power Spear over the power ring, to avoid boosting Balbaroy in battles 9 and 10. I had planned her death for Battle 10 since before I started the run. Earnest needed to die quickly after his one use in the run, which required the Power Spear. Avoiding the Halberd and Promoting Pelle saved a ton of time, and he is only barely strong enough to kill Kane equipped with the Power Ring and Spear. His death in the Chaos Battle opens up many faster Battle Orders in the next battle, hence his death. Further, I can skip his weapons. We no longer need to kill the 3 gargoyles in Mishaela's battle, since they never get a 2nd turn, or waste time picking up the Valkyre in the tower!

Colossus Battle, or why I hate Shining Force

This battle can only be labeled as excruciatingly painful. Last time, Earnest stood in the perfect spot to lure the 3 Chimeras away from Balbaroy's flight path. In the first run, I had no idea this happened. This is the reason the cursor movement in this battle is so particularly horrible. Max has to move to Earnest's spot, run away, and etc. Additionally, his agility is 35, where the Chimeras are 42, making it especially difficult to find good battle orders. This time around, we abuse Balbaroy and the speed ring to avoid killing one of the heads of Colossus, as well as an all around faster completion, with less enemy movement and activity.

Dark Dragon

Skeletons are stupid. The improvement to this battle should be exceedingly obvious.

Newly Ignored Enemies

  • 1 Mage dodged in the Road to Manarina.
  • 1 Silver Knight ignored in Elliot battle (Long sword makes up for the gap in attack)
  • 2 Pegasus Knights dodged in Urbanatol battle
  • 8 Enemies in Balbazak battle
  • 1 Bat in the Shining Path (moved out of the way of his attack range instead)
  • 2 Gargoyles in Kane Battle (I have zero idea why I killed them in the first place)
  • 3 Gargoyles in Mishaela Battle
  • 1 Head of Colossus
  • Total: 19 more enemies ignored!
Suggested SS: (Same as last time, matches movie)
More text to come... (I'd like to do a table of battle by battle improvement when I have the time)

Truncated: Speedy-accepted, since there is already an accepted movie in the queue. I noticed a lot of the improvements in this one, but I still don't know how you did it (why didn't the shellfish appear, why didn't you need the halberd, how did you catch up to Michaela, etc.), so more explanations are welcome.
I see no need in publishing the previous movie. You can discuss the differences just as well anyway (link to the old submission), and this submission is interesting either way. You can either set it to canceled, or I can reject it.

NesVideoAgent: Hi! I am a robot. I took a few screenshots of this movie and placed them here. I'm not sure I got the right ROM though. (I tried Shining Force (U) [!].gen, which was the closest match to what you wrote.) Well, here goes! Feel free to clean up the list.

DeHackEd: Look what I've claimed for encoding! Encoding canceled due to desync at final boss. Seems like movie playback terminates too soon. Thanks to Upthorn for helping sync the movie.

TASVideoAgent
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This topic is for the purpose of discussing #1743: DarkKobold's Genesis Shining Force in 2:08:40.07
Skilled player (1636)
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Since my last movie sat in the queue for months, I managed to restart the game from scratch, and save 13 minutes, 45K frames. However, since I really like the old movie, and it was destined for publication, I'm going to make an unprecedented request: Please 'publish' that movie, and obsolete it right away. No encoding necessary, but it allows me to discuss the differences. Additionally, it makes this movie more interesting, for the reasons noted in the submission.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
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*groan* Damnation. I kept waiting for the AVI because, despite Shining Force being in my top 5 games ever, I can't sit and stare at it for 2+ hours. Hell, I can barely watch REAL movies that long. Now it'll be another two months before this one gets shoved through the slow-moving madness of the queue. Still, it's a sizable improvement over what I already considered to be a great TAS. Yes vote is inevitable.
Joined: 3/15/2007
Posts: 131
Why do submissions sit in the queue for so long? Not enough encoders?
Joined: 4/3/2005
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Awesome news! It'll be hard to have another 2 free hours to watch this, but It's on my watch list. @Kaitoukid: The trick is that you watch it in a small window, so you can do other things during the "boring parts" (mostly the mountain/forests parts that only allow 2 steps per turn). EDIT: Movie watched. Voting yes. It's a surprise how many people die on this movie, specially Earnest, who just does his thing and dies! Looking at how you manipulate/ignore the enemies is very fun, and the secret weapon scene is hilarious. I wonder if some time could be gained by switching the mobility ring between members on the forests/mountain part, but it's so obvious I guess you'd have already thought of it. I'll still watch the queue for more details about this run. Congrats!
No.
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DrJones wrote:
I wonder if some time could be gained by switching the mobility ring between members on the forests/mountain part, but it's so obvious I guess you'd have already thought of it. I'll still watch the queue for more details about this run. Congrats!
The big problem being switching the mobility ring causes the turn to end, takes 1.5 seconds to switch, and 1.5 seconds to equip. Additionally, imagine this (P1 has mobility ring) P1 - - - > P2 P1 Gives P2 mobility ring P1 P2 - - - > Next turn P1 - - - > _ _ P2 P1 can no longer reach P2 to get mobility ring, due to decreased movement. Additionally, P2 would have to 'skip' a turn to give P1 the mobility ring. (since he is held back by P1's movement.) Finally, I don't know of any battle where it would make any change, since all forest/mountain areas are achieved by the birds wiping out an enemy or enemies, post mobility ring in chapter 5. Just wanted to answer your question :) Sorry for the novel.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
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DarkKobold wrote:
Additionally, imagine this (P1 has mobility ring) P1 - - - > P2 P1 Gives P2 mobility ring P1 P2 - - - > Next turn P1 - - - > _ _ P2 P1 can no longer reach P2 to get mobility ring, due to decreased movement. Additionally, P2 would have to 'skip' a turn to give P1 the mobility ring. (since he is held back by P1's movement.)
If both P1 and P2 have equal movement (without the mobility ring), P1 can be one space in front of P2 when giving him the mobility ring. Then on the next turn, P1 can move forward, then P2 can pass him by exactly one space and give P1 the mobility ring. This will also work (by switching the ring every 2 turns) when movement is restricted if the desired path is slightly diagonal. Your other points still stand, and I don't recall a place where this would be useful.
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http://darkkobold.googlepages.com/home How-to website in progress. Will fill in more as time permits.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
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DarkKobold wrote:
Since my last movie sat in the queue for months, I managed to restart the game from scratch, and save 13 minutes, 45K frames. However, since I really like the old movie, and it was destined for publication, I'm going to make an unprecedented request: Please 'publish' that movie, and obsolete it right away. No encoding necessary, but it allows me to discuss the differences. Additionally, it makes this movie more interesting, for the reasons noted in the submission.
Generally, the "publication" process not only includes putting the movie on the front page, but also encoding the AVI for those who cannot (or chose not to) use an emulator. Your submission will not disappear once it is canceled, it will simply be moved to gruefood. If you would like to discuss that movie in contrast to your new movie, simply link to it in the submission text. This will allow for the viewer to still have quick reference to the movie that you are talking about, but will save the confusing act of "publishing" and obsoleting a movie in the same day. Unless you have any questions, will you please cancel your previous run so that A) Your current movie is more prominent, and B) The submission queue doesn't get cluttered with submissions destined to get grue'd.
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Will all this nonsense help make the bloody TAS get encoded in something less than three months? ~.~
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mmbossman wrote:
Generally, the "publication" process not only includes putting the movie on the front page, but also encoding the AVI for those who cannot (or chose not to) use an emulator.
There have been a few prior cases where movies were published with no AVI made, and the prior submission was already accepted for 3 months several weeks before this one was made... So there is no real excuse for it not to have been published already, and no good reason to refuse the request to publish it now since he doesn't even want an AVI made.
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I keep hearing this 3 months figure, which i don't understand. The prior movie was posted by NESvideoagent on September 14, and this one was submitted almost exactly a month and a half later. Granted, that is a somewhat long time to go without publication, but I've certainly seen longer. and if it's possible to publish a movie without encoding it, I suppose it's not that big of a deal, but I still think it's just as easy to link to the cancelled run.
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upthorn
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Huh, look at that... Well it certainly hasn't been three months since mid-september. It sure feels like it's been longer though.
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I really like the improvement and intend to vote yes. It's hilarious watching the tiny party of three beat the last battles... and the Mishaela battle is really a crazy improvement from the last run, that part was great. The improvement in cursor movement also really shows in some battles. Two little things that might be completely justified but I didn't understand: (1) Can you avoid getting the heat axe for Gort? It takes some time, albeit not very much, and isn't really used for anything. (2) I guess you had some trouble getting Pelle killed. He was pretty much useless in at least the two battles prior to being killed. Is there no way to unload him earlier?
Dwedit
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I believe that the old should be published and obsoleted, and not just link to gruefood, because the site has features built in to handle obsoleted movies, and no features built in to handle movies obsoleted before they get published.
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FreshFeeling wrote:
Two little things that might be completely justified but I didn't understand: (1) Can you avoid getting the heat axe for Gort? It takes some time, albeit not very much, and isn't really used for anything.
Same with the Atlas in this run, the only way to avoid getting the item is to have a full inventory. Since no one has a full inventory at either point, they are impossible to not pick-up.
FreshFeeling wrote:
(2) I guess you had some trouble getting Pelle killed. He was pretty much useless in at least the two battles prior to being killed. Is there no way to unload him earlier?
Actually, Pelle was a necessity 2 battles before he was killed. He kills the two Golden Garygoyle things at the beginning of the round. If anyone else could have done this, he could have been killed at the Mishaela fight. The tower battle is the only battle he sits after becoming useless. Additionally, Max is the only one who is strong enough to kill the Gargoyle other than Pelle. This would throw off his experience balance, if he were able to reach them.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
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Ah, that sounds reasonable. I hadn't thought of the experience balance, despite you having stressed it in the sub text. Still, it's too bad there's no way to kill Pelle after those gargoyles.
upthorn
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Okay, finally finished watching through this and Dark Kobold provided satisfactory answers to all of my questions about spots that looked like possible improvements. Yes vote. Also, if possible, I would prefer to see the old submission published with no AVI and then immediately obsoleted.
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Why exactly? We've had tons of movies receive improved runs while the previous one was still in the submission queue, and none of them were (or needed to be) published. I don't understand why this movie would need to be any different.
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Thanks for PM DarkKobold! Going to watch the video soon. Typo Mariana -> Manarina
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I finally had the time to watch this, and it's absolutely fantastic. Though I didn't watch it all in one sitting, I did go through the whole thing without fast-forwarding any of it. And I have a hard time not FFing when I'm playing this game sometimes! Of course I'm biased since I love the Genesis and I particularly love the Climax games, but this is my favourite run of any RPG so far. Excellent work!
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Something's not right here. It looks like Movie End kicked in too early. Game doesn't end properly.
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If the Dark Dragon is killed (all 3 heads), the game is over. The full ending will play without any input, but it won't be nearly as fast as the text in the rest of the game, which is scrolled through quickly by holding a button.
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*looks at watch* *looks at how many games have been published* *looks at game's status on the list* Right, what was the argument people were using for Shining Force NOT being stuck forever in queue hell? Because it seems to me your arguments have shit themselves and gone home. What's the fucking hold-up here?
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Probably adelikat being lazy and selfish enough to publish only four movies in the last 24 hours (and before that, waiting an entire four and a half hours since co-submitting two runs). What a fucking, shitty travesty. If he'd pre-empted DeHackEd instead (and had better luck syncing the video) this never would have happened. Edit: five now.
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