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Was trying to TAS TuS 2 but the bot is fundamentally flawed. Scrolling the screen is a mess and introduces manuality. I could TAS it but I’d rather not waste time on something that should be possible automatically.
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Pokota wrote:
Another thing that we could help clarify is the difference between actual randomness and deterministic RNG - I saw a lot of people on twitch chat complain that it's not random if the same result can be forced during the 100% Chrono Trigger run.
Yeah, I guess that would be good. Would need to be scripted out properly though, I doubt anyone could give a full, understandable explanation of (P)RNGs on the fly.
Warp wrote:
Perhaps in the next GDQ marathon, something else could be briefly demonstrated, such as how to find the memory address for a certain value, how to show said value on screen in real-time, and how to use it for something useful. I think some good example of this could be showcased and explained in a minute or two.
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samurai goroh wrote:
Say Alaktorn, are you planning on going for a TAS of the full course? (that would be great, even if you don't plan to submit the run here)
Not really. As of right now I don’t even know the strategy to get the 16 turns record, but I’m interested in replicating it. That interest is what made me TAS the first map, so who knows, maybe I’ll TAS something more of it even if I don’t really plan to.
And yeah, everything that happens is necessary to charge Sami’s 3-stars COP that’s needed for M2. You have 35 luck and Arty on Sub does 67% (partner attack skills) and have to kill it. The Cruiser always does 3HP to the Black Boat so that’s not hard to get, damage range is 30%–39% I believe…
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adelikat wrote:
This isn't the first console verified movie to be different in length vs the reported time. Why is no one upset that the SM64 console verifications differ DRASTICALLY in completion time to the emulation time? At some point maybe we could add a verification time to the publication info.
In the meantime, 3 empty frames to get it to sync is perfectly fine within our constraints for claiming console verification.
Please actually read the topic before posting next time.
moozooh wrote:
Three blank frames during a level transition should indeed be considered fine in that regard.
You may want to read the topic as well if you think 3 blank frames during a level transition is all that was modified of the input file.
moozooh wrote:
having a small leeway (1) for emulators that are possibly years away from being sufficiently hardware-accurate (2) in non-gameplay places of the movie (fadeouts, cutscenes, level transitions) is definitely the way to go for the concept to remain around. Why? Because the concept of console verification came about as a proof that what we're doing here is not exploiting emulation bugs/inaccuracies nor hacking games; feeding pure input to the console is the only thing required to finish a TAS. In this respect the movies remain console-verified, but said leeway should remain in sane, non-controversial bounds.
Yes, I thought myself that the differences being outside of gameplay (just in menus) could be a factor in favor of it being console-verified. Overall what you say here makes sense. Defining those sane, non-controversial bounds may become hard though, if you go outside hard-set rules such as “only playing around with lag is allowed”.
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I definitely think just playing a video of Ikaruga was a bad idea. Console verification is best, but if that’s not possible, you should still at least replay runs on the emulator, and not just that, you could have extra Lua scripts to show interesting data about the run that you wouldn’t be able to see by simply going on YouTube and watching the official encode. Maybe you could even savestate during particular tricks, and go through them with frame-by-frame while explaining what’s happening. Basically, make it an experience that’s something more than what just any person can go on YouTube to see.
As I was writing the post I started getting more ideas and now I think that actually playing back runs on emulator and using Lua/input viewer/save&loadstate and explaining the more important tricks could be a pretty valid alternative to console verification.
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dwangoAC wrote:
We've only ever been discussing "extra wait time", the name lag frame is convenient shorthand but isn't particularly accurate.
Don’t use it if it’s not what you mean, then. Lag = not input. Empty frames = input. Just because they’re empty doesn’t mean it’s not input, 0 is still an important value. A movie syncing on console with the same input should be considered verified, one that requires different input shouldn’t. Therefore this one shouldn’t.
dwangoAC wrote:
I think what's happening here is just fine
I disagree.
endrift wrote:
I guess that could mean that none of the VBA-rr movies should or will ever be verified, though.
Quite possible. That’s what happens when you have poor emulation.
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dwangoAC wrote:
I'm fully of the opinion based on all of the work I've done that it is absolutely allowed to add or remove empty (lag) frames when performing console verification.
Don’t think anyone’s arguing against that. I’m arguing against the fact that suddenly the console requires a soft reset and extra wait time (not lag) to sync up the RNG.
feos wrote:
This is a pointless discussion since NitroGenesis already decided it is verified. Who am I to argue.
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endrift wrote:
Going back and rereading the thread again, yes, I inserted 3 blank frames between every level. I was told before doing this that that's generally how console verifications work, so if not, I'd been misled at some point.
I think it’s fine if all you’re doing is adding/removing blank frames to play around with lag. But if you’re changing anything else (such as 700+ wait frames at the start for RNG?) then the movie shouldn’t be considered console-verified.
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ALAKTORN wrote:
On a related note, I saved 1 frame on 4-4, lol.
Suuper re-did the latter half of the mission and improved 8 frames, then I re-did the ending and improved a further 6 frames. The ending still looks like shit but bounces optimization is really hard, Suuper tried a lot to improve it and couldn’t do it. There’s still a thing I wanna try out before the bounces which I’ll get to eventually.
I think we’re up to 4-8 right now but there are still a bunch of older missions we’re trying to optimize further.
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I thought they were nice. Original ones. Getting to see the same angles with Mario in the center all the time gets boring. I also think some camera angles were forced in order to not crash the game with the new glitch used.
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Yeah, it’s a common trick in speedruns. Similar to resetting at cutscenes to skip them. Sometimes when you focus on optimizing other things it’s hard to remember about these tricks, so much so that I didn’t even do that unless it was subconscious.
On a related note, I saved 1 frame on 4-4, lol. With 2-Boss I think that’s 2 frames I’ve saved by input so far. For some reason there’s a 1 frame timing after a bounce where activating the shroom gives you 41k speed as opposed to 38k, and I accidentally hit it while trying to do other things. Actually the timing is more like 3 frames or so, but only on 1 specific frame it saves 1 frame. Didn’t really understand why, maybe Suuper will once he looks into it.
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[9:58:18] ALAKTORN: just had a mad idea
[9:58:30] ALAKTORN: since MKDS keeps playing for a few frames after you press Retry
[9:58:38] ALAKTORN: what if 1 frame before the mission is over you do Mission Select
[9:58:51] ALAKTORN: will it unlock the next mission or not? I guess not but it’d be interesting to check
[10:35:05] suuper_w: I was about to go to bed, but then I saw this. Too interesting, must test.
[10:38:14] suuper_w: It does give me the completion. :O
[10:38:25] suuper_w: You just saved us loads of time. :D
[10:41:45] suuper_w: Well, I've got some work to do tommorrow. lol
[10:42:22] suuper_w: I'm slightly disappointed that this means I can't hop at the end of a mission anymore. lol
[10:45:24] suuper_w: I can pause up to 30 frames before I finish.
[10:47:14] suuper_w: This saves about 3.9 seconds per mission.
[10:47:22] ALAKTORN: YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[10:47:26] suuper_w: Omg, that's awesome.
[10:47:34] ALAKTORN: YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[10:47:56] ALAKTORN: 30 frames before you finish? holy shit lmao
[10:47:59] suuper_w: That's a total of 4 minutes through the entire 7 levels.
[10:48:14] ALAKTORN: dude I can’t fucking believe this
[10:48:15] ALAKTORN: so good
[10:48:18] ALAKTORN: this is amazing
[10:48:19] suuper_w: Ikr
LESS GO
