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marzojr wrote:
feos wrote:
Woah! You then use read-only savestates to get to the edited frame quickly in Gens I guess?
If you have the movie open in read-only mode in Gens, you can alt-tab to TASEditor to edit the movie, edit, save, alt-tab back to Gens and load a savestate before the edited frame. Gens will reload the movie automagically, and play it with the changes you made. It even works with Gens on Wine and TASEditor in a VM.
For me is handy to work with 3 files. 2 main working files and 1 master file to keep best result at the moment.
I already trained to press "Tools -> Movie -> Movie history ->" by mouse less than quarter of seconds.
Thanks for tip anyway.
Btw in december found solution for the Grand Deflation Problem with using 3 buttons controller.
Ouzo wrote:
One bad thing about doing a three player run is the switching. In order to do so, you need to press A+B+C and that can cause some undesired actions, so I had to choose carefully when to switch characters (ex. cannot switch characters while ballooned up or will deflate).
Fortunately is possible to cancel deflation if call the "Give up menu" just before switching vikings.
So don't worry, one of the biggest skip in game (dependent on deflation) will take place, despite of control scheme limitations :)
@feos
Вообще-то про сорока-секундного карася я писал еще в декабре в общих вопросах, так что это не новость. Просто Джуниору я тогда забыл написать о благополучном исходе сего животрепещущего вопроса.
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Aqfaq wrote:
Oh dear, my head would explode trying to optimize three characters at once.
I not play in traditional sense, i just type input in tas editor for each frame. It requires a holy patience, but this way i can achieve absolute team work execution of all my ideas.
Btw if you think BTRY is something especially impressive - you are wrong, it was just good day for Olaf.
In my ragnarök TAS there are 8 levels (at least 8, may be 9) will be improved more significant and several of them will be more impressive.
It is too early to say surely (too many things are hard for exact calculation) however in the most optimistic scenario - our brave vikings will be able to return home less than half an hour. Olaf not wants to miss breakfast.
---
feos wrote:
Woah! You then use read-only savestates to get to the edited frame quickly in Gens I guess?
Exactly.
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Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
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And now part 2/2 "Revenge of Olaf", Level 23 - BTRY where 1049 frames (17.48 seconds) was saved:
Link to video
Bottom puzzles:
-Olaf get first item instead of Eric, besides it new Olaf's position allow to can turn on lift earlier. All glory to Olaf! (~540)
-More precise Eric path optimisation. Maintain full speed during offscreen avoiding shots of second robot, also climbing up and down ladders are not so simple as someone can think. (~42)
Upper puzzles:
-Changed sequence of getting items.
-At the left puzzle {cube} skip spike problem without using Olaf, Eric can fall thru force field offscreen. (~261)
-At right puzzle {chemical} Eric passed thru fire offscreen. (~99)
-Manipulate electric saw robot to get item inside of it, from left side. {~30}
-Less items transmissions. (~17)
-Used Olaf's parachute system. So Eric, the fastest character can put items on the places instead of Baleog. {~60}. (Olaf requested emphasize that he put his trophy by his own hands.)
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
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Meanwhile in factory.
Link to video
Short Level 22 - PLNG (where 237 frames saved) with two minor improvements:
-At the second magnet give control to Baleog, so Eric able be at tramplin earlier (48 frames saved).
-Completely skip third magnet. Eric jump over spikes instead of Olaf. (~3 seconds saved).
---
Lost Vikings behind the scene Part 1/2 - "Spikes is a lie". Olaf: Hey Eric, in factory world there are only 5 puzzles with spikes, where i need fly. I very sad that you did my job for one of them.
Eric: Actually i can do 4/5 of them instead of Olaf.
Baleog: Eric, probably you forgot but in level 24 - JNKR there is significant difference comparing to SNES. In 1992 many players reported about map weakness in this level which allowed me use my bow to press button thru the wall, so in 1993 for Sega Genesis version additional wall was added to fix this stupid mistake. I afraid Olaf's flying is absolutely necessary.
Eric: Yeah, i heard this story and nevertheless i will skip getting red key. Sorry Olaf.
Olaf: Oh no, seems i never earn a honor to eat at one table with Odin in great Valhalla's hall... I urgently need to do something glorious to proof that i am still very useful team member.
To be continued...
Part 2/2 - "Revenge of Olaf" will include solution for next level 23 - BTRY with numerous improvements (900+ frames), at least 540 of them will be saved by using Olaf the Stout.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
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johannhowitzer wrote:
Patashu pointed me to this thread. Looks like you already know a lot about the tricks in this game, but if you need any information, feel free to ask, I've run this game 1p2c in RTA for over a year.
Thanks, i saw some of your SNES speed runs, really impressive results for non-assisted speedruns. But i know a lot of own tricks and knowledges beyond of it, so i not think you can be helpful.
---
Regarding routing i have only one open question. But to test it need someone with TASing knowledges (and with unhuman patience).
In level 33 - 8BLL may be Olaf can carry Baleog on the shield thru this spikes and survive?? (Red line on pic)
Very low celling strongly against it, i can't succeed (at least so far). However i not yet sure that it is impossible. Inside the spikes there are some "safety areas", so some chances still exist.
Let me know if someone can succeed. {In case if it is possible Eric will be able to get Baleog's key, after getting his own key}.
Note: only the lowest safety area (on picture) is truly safety, others are dead end since Olaf can't escape from them alive.
---
Also there is a weak shadow of hope to skip Baleog part with girder in Level 27 H0PP - aka "Broken Hopes" if Eric able to press this button.
But unfortunately he can't press it. So this question is closed. Let me know if i wrong and it is somehow possible.
In routes for all other levels i absolutely sure.
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Aqfaq wrote:
You're gonna need this helmet!
Thanks, i will use this as avatar for submission :) but until that moment i need yet 2-3 months of hard work digging.
Offtopic. When (if) you will do something epic may use [url=http://s7.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2015/02/5373b665f03f368944fb32abec3f0280.jpg
]this advanced avatar.[/url]
---
As gratefulness for hilarious pic i uncover one more level before disappearing.
Link to video
Level 15 - C1R0 (where 398 frames saved) with abusing two cool tricks:
1)Broken Bridge Glitch to completely skip Olaf's part.
2)Cancel Eric's falling animation by switching lever.
+)Besides to accelerate destroying wall with red key by two strikes is little bit (18 frames) faster then simple waiting.
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Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
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feos wrote:
Автор ограничил доступ к видео.
Спасибо, исправил. Теперь должно работать.
Пост можешь удалить (ну или написать что нибудь информативное на буржуйском).
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A few months ago when i only started first testings, i saw just vague outlines of real depth and complexity of this game.
Since then, i digging rabbit's hole every night about 2-3 hours and now my vision became clear to see full picture, and this picture is scary beautiful - each puzzle is like a as etude from chess.
My minimum task was to save at least 3 minutes over published TAS, this modest goal would be surpassed for sure. (Latest estimates says already something like ~ 5 minutes.)
Now i switched to solving the maximum task - i trying to make the most incredible Sega Genesis TAS ever created by mankind. Ragnarök is coming.
From Egypt world i really enjoyed optimise level 16 - SPKS (417 frames saved). Puzzle at the end of this level (4 buttons & 3 vikings problem) show true power of 3-Player TAS.
I a bit break a vow of silence and decide to uncover this level.
Link to video
P.S. I accidentally found old post by Aqfaq where he unreasonably used word optimal for his solution for first level.
Aqfaq wrote:
Improved level 1 by 30 frames compared to the current published run.
The thing is that the last guy is always the most important, because he determines when the level ends, so to save time, it is best to make the last guy come as fast as possible, even if it makes the other guys come slower. This should be optimal first level:
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/453339673/LostVikingsLevel1.gmv
Even though Ouzo's run is old, it is ahead of its time with the 3 players. It is a well done TAS, but can be improved a lot, because the game is absolutely awesome and a great challenge for any TASer.
Dear Aqfaq please try to avoid using word optimal in future. It's bad form. Even demigod Masterjun never used this word.
Actually even the first, the shortest and the easiest level is a way not so obvious to be able find really optimal solution.
Here how Level 1 should look when it optimised to absurdly high level (36 frames faster than "optimal" solution by Aqfaq.)
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1074269932/Lost_Vikings_Level1.gmv
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
I agree with each word of this suggestion.
feos wrote:
To do it I'd need to destar 2 movies with the lowest entertainment rating
http://tasvideos.org/Movies-Stars-RatingE.html
or something that already has 2 similar runs starred. Feel free to suggest destar candidates.
Also, not enough rating for WC2 to maky any decision.
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feos wrote:
But I'm unsure why EgxHB didn't implement improvements we posted in the game's thread.
This moment is also a little bit doubtful:
EgxHB wrote:
In the test run, I managed to get this enemy to drop a health pack - however, in this run, the RNG was in a very bad position.
...
I take a death at the checkpoint to get my health back.
The single place in game where luck manipulation is needed - to have bad RNG. Seriously?
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To disallow arrows and kill poor innocent guy in the last level was a very wrong decision for pacifist category.
This run is not really pacifist. I'm sorry, but I have to vote No.
Link to video
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May be exist a special addon for TAS Editor for multiplayer games which can allow to work with each column separately? Like Microsoft Excel, not like Notepad.
For example to make shift up (or down) for N frames for track of player#2, but not touching tracks of players #1 and #3.
Usually i edit every frame by hand, but it is time consuming when you do it a few hundreds times per day... would be great if better solution for such tasks exist.
Edit: Thanks for answer.
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XYZ wrote:
Once again Contra pacifist TAS, here players shoot in cannon soldiers with shields in level 5, still not victims.
Think it can be used in this game too.
What about balloon-bird here, or more globally for other games - about enemies which can get several non-lethal hits? Can they be damaged or not?
If is allowed, it mean that in another game for example you can rape a girl and still get pacifist category (girl must survive). I have a little doubts that can be counted as pacifist.
---
XYZ wrote:
I don't think that these guys in the Contra have the same moral damage, as the girl in your example.
But pacifist rules are equal for all types of damage. That's why i called your question interesting.
---
XYZ wrote:
If it used in one game and published without rejection I think can be tried anythere.
I agree, currently it is not forbidden and can be tried everywhere. But may be worth to forbid unjustifiable cruelty in Pacifist versions until it is too late?
What we will say to parents of this poor little girl from example, if in future such "pacifist" movie will be created and accepted? "According our rules it is ok, she must be happy to being part of pacifist run."
---
XYZ wrote:
I also thought about the enemies with barrels. Destroy the barrels to get the first aid kit will also be considered barbarism and cruelty?
Barbarism - yes of course. But it is still very well pacifist, if nobody injured during barrels explosions.
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feos wrote:
XYZ wrote:
If you want to make movie with killing that lance duck it's OK, but it can't be call "pacifist".
If someone doesn't consider it "pacifist", it doesn't mean it's not "pacifist".
I believe everyone doesn't consider run with N unnecessary kills as "pacifist".
I sure deep in the heart even feos and EgxHB understand it.
XYZ wrote:
Can player to shoot at enemies that don't die with one shot?
Special case: balloon-bird can be deflated and not be considered dead? I think Yes.
And I think it will still be pacifist version. Just for entertainment.
Actually very good and interesting question!
Guideline is silent about unjustifiable cruelty in Pacifist version, but personally i think to cripple dozens (or even hundreds) innocent enemies is not the best example of pacifistic behavior.
I be glad to hear other opinions or even full discussion about this matter.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
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feos wrote:
(or only kill as few as possible) when it is unnecessary for game completion.
It is very well still a pacifist category.
No it is not well. If i understanding rules correctly as few as possible means that 0 kills must be preferable over 1 kill.
0 kills is a fewer than 1 kill.
And to allow 1 unnecessary cold-blooded murder for pacifist category - is the same like in 100% competition to allow collecting only 99% of items.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
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feos wrote:
I support the initial approach totally.
I very like his initial concept too. But it is un-pacifistic.
feos wrote:
Now what, copy all the arrow strats just to save a single enemy? Please.
Life is cruel thing. Of course you still can accept this run even if he will make cold-blooded murder of single innocent guy, but already not in Pacifist category.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
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EgxHB wrote:
So, I'm now faced with a dilemma - should I allow arrows
I not see dilemma. The only way to make run really Pacifist is to use arrows - arrows should be used everywhere else.
EgxHB wrote:
The first balloon duck is avoidable (i.e. the damage is just to save time) but the second balloon duck
...
Of course, you could always die at the checkpoint to get your health back
In last level all ballon ducks are avoidable. So you not need to die at checkpoint.
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Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
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scrimpeh wrote:
Still hoping you'll be able to find a way to go through the final level pacifist.
If use arrows weapon to be able climb walls this level easily can be completed pacifist.
EgxHB wrote:
This is a little test I made for a Pacifist run. Like with other runs of this type, the objective is to complete the game while defeating as few enemies as possible - in this run, only one regular enemy is killed.
Even one regular enemy is killed = not really Pacifist run.
So EgxHB, if your main goal is Pacifist run - i highly recommend to use arrows weapon and avoid killing this innocent guy or change your branch to "No extra weapons".
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
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Run is well made, but game itself is awful, i became bored already on the second minute and even good music not helped me. Meh vote.
Alyosha wrote:
I don't plan to do all treasures Super robin hood or Linus Spacehead. I'll be focusing on Wizards and Warriors 2, and maybe Battletoads warpless after that.
This would be great.
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jlun2 wrote:
Is it possible for the game to even end at 27m normally?
Even if not, 99999m is a lot cooler number.
Why 27m? Why not 22m or for example 13m? Imho only two perfect options for ending - 99999m or 0m. All the rest variants not so impressive. (Still yes vote.)
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Nice run, yes vote. But i have question about very ending.
May be is possible somehow manipulate to die exactly at 99999m, just before overflow to get "maximum score" category?
I think it would be a way better than unremarkable .0027m final score.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
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I really like it. Nice TAS!
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Meanwhile i finished fourth level and now can summarize the interim results for Star Ship area:
For first world in total 638 frames (10.63 seconds) was saved. Now our brave vikings are going to improve the next world - Prehistoria.
Edit: After some reflections i decided to not to post WIPs; it will be better psychological effect when you will see whole crazy epic thing at once.
It will happen approximately in April 2015. And if at that day your brain will not explode - you at least buddhist monk.
P.S. Happy new year to everyone!
---
Update from 08 January 2015: Second world Prehistoria is finished.
So far everything is going well, actually very very well. I already saved over 1 minute over published movie :)
Now is time to improve the next world - Egypt.
---
Update from 01 February 2015: Third world Egypt is finished.
Improvements still keep coming and the results are amazing. Improvements table.
In total i already 8327 frames ahead of published movie (2 minutes and 18.78 seconds).
Now time to improve The great factory world!
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
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Patashu wrote:
Wow, this will be great!
Will you be posting WIPs?
From time to time i will add levels in this playlist.
Nope. Human eyes not should to see miracles before they completely prepared.
Everybody in love with old TAS. So without doubts any improvements will be highly welcomed. Especially with tag. {I hope about Δ 3 mins would be enough to get this sweet tag.}
Most of major skips are closer to end of game. Improvements in the beginning would be relatively small, though minor improvements are exist everywhere.
3-Players have very big space regarding routes. I really like to crack this wonderful and fantastically complicated game! I continue finding more and more improvements.
No matter how crazy ideas i had - nearly all of them are workable. It is very enjoyable :)
Sometimes even in "simple" levels is possible to find new time saver, and it always pleasant even if it is only small tricks.
I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Current projects: NES: Tetris "fastest 999999" (improvement, with r57shell)
Genesis: Adventures of Batman & Robin (with Truncated); Pocahontas; Comix Zone (improvement); Mickey Mania (improvement); RoboCop versus The Terminator (improvement); Gargoyles (with feos)
---
Also there is a weak shadow of hope to skip Baleog part with girder in Level 27 H0PP - aka "Broken Hopes" if Eric able to press this button.
But unfortunately he can't press it. So this question is closed. Let me know if i wrong and it is somehow possible.
In routes for all other levels i absolutely sure.
So EgxHB, if your main goal is Pacifist run - i highly recommend to use arrows weapon and avoid killing this innocent guy or change your branch to "No extra weapons".
Edit: After some reflections i decided to not to post WIPs; it will be better psychological effect when you will see whole crazy epic thing at once.
It will happen approximately in April 2015. And if at that day your brain will not explode - you at least buddhist monk.
P.S. Happy new year to everyone!
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Update from 08 January 2015: Second world Prehistoria is finished.
So far everything is going well, actually very very well. I already saved over 1 minute over published movie :)
Now is time to improve the next world - Egypt.
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Update from 01 February 2015: Third world Egypt is finished.
Improvements still keep coming and the results are amazing. Improvements table.
In total i already 8327 frames ahead of published movie (2 minutes and 18.78 seconds).
Now time to improve The great factory world!
tag. {I hope about Δ 3 mins would be enough to get this sweet tag.}
Most of major skips are closer to end of game. Improvements in the beginning would be relatively small, though minor improvements are exist everywhere.
3-Players have very big space regarding routes. I really like to crack this wonderful and fantastically complicated game! I continue finding more and more improvements.
No matter how crazy ideas i had - nearly all of them are workable. It is very enjoyable :)
Sometimes even in "simple" levels is possible to find new time saver, and it always pleasant even if it is only small tricks.
