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The best I could find for PAL so far is 4-4-5, with dash held on frames 1-5, 8, 10-11 and then 14 and hold until you hit the first booster level to make the running animation as short as possible. It's just under 2.5 pixels shorter than the old pattern (and about under 6.5 pixels shorter than the new pattern for NTSC).
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Well, I found the shortest pattern by manual testing and then it was later "confirmed" by bruteforcing. I think that was just done via a lua script, and only tested for the shortest pattern to reach the first booster level, and only tested for holding forward, dash, forward plus dash or holding nothing, so it didn't account for any weird quirks that could happen one way or another by using any other button combinations (or as we see now, starting without speedbooster). I don't think the script was posted but if you wanted to test for all that other stuff you'd probably have to write a completely new one anyway.
Sniq wrote:
Btw Cpadolf can you do this same test for pal version? I'm curious how short the charge can go there
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Best I've got is 1.75 pixels shorter than the old pattern, going 2>3>3>3>5 with dash held on frame 1-3, 6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-22. I think that should be the best you can get with a 5 cycle stutter but I could be wrong. If it was possible to do a good 4 cycle pattern that could be shorter but I haven't found anything that worked. Also I noticed that more than just keeping the longer running animation from kicking in with speedbooster equipped, running without it actually makes the animation shorter, so the charge pattern is a few frames shorter.
Still seems to be about 1.5 pixels too long to charge a shinespark in any new place that was impossible before.
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I think he checked against the correct pattern because it was 8192 subpixels shorter than the one I use. I think the reason is that you run no risk of triggering the longer running animation that kicks in if you hold dash too much with speedbooster equipped, this lets you hold dash more to create longer periods of "momentum cooldown" without reaching high running speeds or making the running animation longer. Could probably be quite a bit shorter still.
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lol, that's a pretty dumb mistake, I guess I hexed in some extra frames to manipulate steam when I did the 100% run, then forgot that I actually had to do that when I did those glitched runs and used the same start without thinking about it. Because I did intend to aim for realtime in those runs. Not fixing the jump through Ridleys door is another bad oversight from the 100% run.
thatguy wrote:
I feel like, at this point in the game's tool-assisted evolution, real time is a better measure than in-game time. Lag reduction seems like the most significant thing where there might still be room for further optimisation.
I think it depends honestly. I still think going for ingame time was the better choice for my 100% run but it's kind of a speed/entertainment tradeoff thing where getting cleaner execution and flow from room to room (generally) and being able to use more varied strategies without being too afraid of added lag was favored over cutting another 30 seconds or whatever on a 70 minute run, and I think the same hold for the RBO run. But for any% runs realtime is definitely the way to go.
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Damn, haven't been able to check up close on emulator yet, where did all the 20 frames in Ceres come from? As far as I remember I did sort of aim for realtime there and only added som door lag in one room to get a better steam patter which I thought saved as much ingame time as I lost realtime. Might be misremembering something. Anyway, the steamboost in Ceres is great, the inverse CWJ is fantastic and the Pirate damageboost in OMBR is super cool.
Now do a non-glitched any% run with a crazy new route ;p
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My guess would be about 10 minutes. All the extra item fanfares would take 7.5 minutes, and then actually getting to all the items would sometimes take half a second and sometimes probably 10+ seconds.
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For the record I don't mind the copying and definitely don't think I should have been listed as an author (the only real argument for this imo is that some of the waiting sequences are also directly copied which is something I dislike not because it was "stolen" from me but because they are missed opportunities to infuse your own personality into the run). And not initially giving credit in the submission text is an honest mistake, and looking at the twitch stream or other submissions makes it clear the author wasn't trying to pretend he didn't make use of my run.
I will say though that copying input directly without paying much or any mind to why the other TASers of this game do the things they do, or how they optimize movement makes you miss out on an excellent opportunity to improve your own TASing. What you could do is to not copy a bulk of the input but instead recreate it manually frame by frame. It's far more time consuming but will help you learn a ton of stuff by really observing on a microscopic level all the things that are done to optimize movement. Even better still might be to do any given room blindly, and then compare it to an existing run and figure out all the things that might have made you slower and making sure you remember it all for the rooms where you don't have anything to compare against. Getting a a good grasp of how to move optimally, and how to think when trying to find an optimal way to move through a room might eventually have you shave much more than 90 seconds off of the run even if you didn't change a single strategy. Primarily the thing to think about is that you should be critical of any decision you make in how you move. Taking a very simple example, at about 11:08 into Spikestuffs youtube video you unmorph in midair to shoot a red door with a Super Missile. Why did you unmorph at that exact point? Why not a frame sooner or a frame later? Testing both options to their full extent would have you eventually find that it would have been quicker to unmorph far closer to the ground, just close enough that the door will still have time to fully open just before you run into it. With excessive amounts of testing most movement optimization will become second nature but it does take a lot of time and patience. The key to understanding a lot of this stuff better is getting comfortable with using a RAMwatch to monitor all the interesting values in the game. I've uploaded mine which can be used in bizhawk here.
Anyway, as for the run itself it is generally too lacking in optimization to garner a yes vote, and I'm not even sure that a fully realized 100% map TAS would be a good fit on this particular site. But looking at the run I do think that the category has the potential to be very interesting if enough work and optimization is put into it, and I'd be happy to see more attempts.
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Haven't watched the whole run, only bits and pieces, but I saw a part of the twitch video where you were unsure of how I charged a bluesuit on the treadmills in WS. I'm fairly sure that's not an emulation error but something that happens when you unmorph at exactly the right distance from the floor (in such a way that there's no airtime before hitting the floor but also so that you don't touch the floor until you're fully unmorphed). For whatever reason this will make you unaffected by the treadmill. Possibly related to this is that if you do it correctly your vertical speed will not be reset like it usually is when touching the ground, but will freeze in the value it had just before landing until you jump/crouch which will also make you affected by the treadmill again.
Might watch more of the run later to see if there's any more interesting questions that are brought up in the run.
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It should definitely be impossible with the save room that is used in this run. It's possible to get into the save room through OoB door transitions, but afterwards you are stuck without morphball and the wall behind that door is completely solid. Theoretically there might be some other save room in some other place that could be reachable without any items, and theoretically you could then get OoB someplace close and find a similar crash block. I'd say that it looks to be at least somewhat unlikely to happen but with everything else that has happened to the game I'll never say never.
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Slowking wrote:
TASVideoAgent wrote:
This is an improvement over the previous any% TAS of Super Metroid, it beats the old run by 20359 frames, or about 5.5 minutes, and brining the ingame clock down to 00:02 and the item collection to 2%
So does this obsolete every category but 100%? It should, shouldn't it?
This run doesn't actually change anything though. It doesn't beat anything that the first "glitched" run didn't already beat 6 years ago.
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If you don't grab the missiles the door in the old mother brain room will still be gray and there won't be any enemies. It might be possible to glitch past that gray door with the same kind of pause abuse that was used to fall through the door in crateria main shaft (never tried it though), but it would be slower because it takes a really long time to do that glitch with horizontal doors.
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Yeah, it's unfortunate that this happens sometimes when things are taken to their logical extreme. I think even the TAS that this one obsoletes had gotten to a point were there really wasn't much to be excited about but obviously this is a step even beyond that. It becomes something that you appreciate more for all the cumulative research that went into achieving it than from actually watching it. I think there's a ton of potential for a playaround ACE TAS though and I really hope that someone with sufficient knowledge can get motivated to undertake that task.
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Glitcher wrote:
TASVideoAgent wrote:
The last discovery enabled us to get OoB without any items at all, and we looked for ways to exploit this to end the game quickly with 0%. Sadly we could not find any way to end the game under these conditions, there was simply not enough blocks with the right properties to make anything happen.
Don't worry. If Super Mario 64 could be completed with zero stars, I'm sure you'll find a way to complete Super Metroid with 0% eventually. :)
There's a possibility that it could work, but it would be slower because you would have to do some very slow glitching to traverse through the game without any items to find a spot that would be suitable. Still if it was possible to do it it would definitely have to be done.
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sack_bot wrote:
Only one thing that might be able to be shaved off: why do you fire those shots that don't hit anything?
Doesn't that lag the game?
Shots can cause lag sometimes but it's pretty rare. I think the shots that are fired OoB were necessary because of a quirk that forces you do shoot in order to be able to move forward while aiming down without stopping for a frame. If you're talking about other shots like in ceres that's just playing around. Basically no shots are fired if they cause lag except if you want them to cause lag (which you occasionally do but never in this run IIRC).
EDIT:
Mothrayas wrote:
It's a bit of a shame that, as with other game end glitching runs, the shorter they become, the less of the game is left. Right now, most of the run is just the first handful of corridors/rooms of the game with not a whole lot of variation in abilities or routing visible in the gameplay. The run before this was much better in that regard. Such is the nature of game end glitch runs, I suppose.
Yeah, as game end glitches gets more and more figured out for the games where they are possible it'll generally just hit a point where nothing of the run remains. It's too bad when the less effectively glitched runs are a lot more entertaining (like Chrono Trigger especially) but as long as there are good non game-breaking any% or 100% runs I think it's fine.
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Youtube link seems broken, probably missed the last few characters, so here it is until it's fixed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Lar33xD-g
Also voted yes because it saves the animals.
EDIT: Also the rerecord count isn't entirely accurate because the run was spliced together from several different parts, made on different emulators even and only the rerecords of one of them is there. But it's very hard to say what the actual count is and it doesn't really matter for much anyway.
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Samsara wrote:
It looks like the first minute of kagemitsu's test run is used in this run, according to the comparison encode. He should probably be listed as a co-author.
Still, excellent run, glad to see AoS back in the queue. Yes vote of course.
Just to clarify, from what I can understand the Manticore double-kill happens because both its body and tail accept damage, and since they're hit on the same frame the game is tricked into thinking Manticore was killed twice. I could be wrong, though.
I think it's the opposite, kagemitsu copied mtbRc's old TAS up till the point of divergence.
Excellent run either way, easy yes vote!
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mathgrant wrote:
What do you mean by this? The N-Spade card game?
Don't know why this should be spoilered but I guess I'll follow suit: ACE stands for Arbitrary Code Execution and refers to the method that is used to glitch to the ending in Super Mario Bros 3, which is extremely sensitive as a bunch of enemies have to be placed/killed in exact positions for it to work correctly
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Yes it's a very new discovery that has lead to this, but no optimized run has been made of it yet. I'm working on it at the moment but there is still some research to be made regarding possible improvements. The way it looks right now it'll be about 30 seconds faster than the current run on this site unless some new tricks are indeed discovered. It's a 4% run though. It's possible to get "3%" but the way to do that is to save warp back to ceres in order to have missiles removed which will make the game think you only have 3 items. But you still have to collect 4 items. It might be possible to skip missiles anyway with extensive glitching but even if it does work it will be much slower.
This new discovery is based on something I found when making the 100% run, which is that there is a 1 frame windows when unpausing where you can move without triggering any door block. I didn't think much of this at the time but Sniqq found that by doing this over and over again you could get OoB without X-ray, effectively letting you skip bombs and super missiles, glitching straight to the PB room to the upper right of the landing site, and then glitching past the green door and taking the elevator to red brinstar to grab X-ray and then finishing the game as usual. Unfortunately it takes something like 40 seconds to get OoB even when optimized as ~12 pauses are necessary to get far enough to go OoB.
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If you are "forced" into a crouch position you won't be allowed to use X-ray. This could for example happen when you do a spinjump into a hole that's 2 blocks high meaning there's not enough room to stand in. Basically if you want to get stuck with the spinjump method you have to get stuck in the door in such a way that you are standing in it when you land, then crouch manually and start climbing. The timing for this is very fickle but the thing to aim for is being as far down as possible when triggering the door transition without going so low that you don't get stuck in the door at all.
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Afaik that is one of the oldest and most widespread myths about the game, but no one has ever been able to reproduce it. I'd definitely require some solid proof before i believe that happened.
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Nach wrote:
You seemed to propose X-Ray is the decisive factor, and happen to obsolete another based on time. I'm suggesting to look at RAM corruption as the decisive factor, and not necessarily obsolete because of using particular items.
I might have worded myself poorly but that is not what I think. I think the common factor between all 3 of these runs is that they use glitches to skip major portions of the game and to trick the game into ending itself without completing the objectives necessary to do so (whether it is glitching to the room behind MB to trigger the escape sequence or straight up telling it to go to the ending). I don't even think that the previous X-ray run qualifies as RAM corruption because it simply makes use of stuff that is left in RAM by the letting game act as intended.
So I think all 3 of them, by different methods, compete for the same spot (fastest completion by any means) and that only 1 of them should remain published. I didn't agree with the current two glitched any% runs being published alongside each other both as any% (though would have supported the old X-ray run to be published as a low% run before this one beat it in that regard as well), and I don't think there's any good reason not to obsolete both of them with this run. But I also think that there's no good reason to obsolete the other any% runs with this one. The ingame run is iffy as it is but its existence isn't positively or negatively affected by this one, and if it is to be retroactively obsoleted it should be unrelated to the publishing of this run. Same goes for the 14% runs, I think.
EDIT:
Nach wrote:
What is your logic for each of those not obsoleting the other, but that this should obsolete both of them?
Not that I agreed with the decision, but I think the arbitrary code run was published for being, at the time, the fastest completion by any means, but those means were very controversial and the X-ray run was left up because it was the fastest completion without any debug codes or arbitrary code execution. But the controversial means no longer protects the X-ray run and the faster time doesn't protect the arbitrary code run.
It didn't overwrite and RAM, but what you say would only be true if you think that we need a different run for every type of glitch. I've always though that the "glitched" vs "non glitched" was, most of the time, a sufficient distinction even if the specifics are always going to be a little bit arbitrary.
