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Memory wrote:
ruadath wrote:
Even I voted Meh on my own submission here.
At least you're honest...?
There's nothing wrong with finding your own work unentertaining.
Regardless of how much a TASer may try to inject entertainment through the TASing process, some games simply don't offer much in terms of entertainment value.
Some of us also feel that the archival of fastest-known runs regardless of entertainment value is a worthwhile endeavor and just as important as archival of entertaining runs.
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It's still hard to say. Your changes sound like they alter both timing and button presses, so either or both could still be contributing to what's altering the RNG.
I'm not familiar enough with the mechanics of the official MegaMan series to know how their RNG is affected, so the best I can do is speculate on a hacked ROM.
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Ultimatesaber27 wrote:
Here, you can see that it appears in the top screen. Well, for me, it appears in the Top-Right corner of the screen. Even losing some frames before entering the boss gate does nothing.
The RNG that determines his position may not be time related...meaning waiting any number of frames may not have an effect.
For example, the RNG instead may be based on any (or all) of the button presses up to that point in the game.
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warmCabin wrote:
Holy shit!!! Have you heard of the elseif keyword? I think you might like it :p
Nope....never knew of that until now. You're lightyears beyond me in terms of lua scripting (and probably programming in general). Thanks for the mini-lesson.
On a more positive note, my experimental WIP of the TAS currently uses the sequence starting with "CUP." Which means, I just need to clean it up a bit and I'll be done!
Curiosity question. Your script generated multiple sequences labeled "Best so far." Does it take into consideration how many frames you have to wait to initiate the other sequences besides the one starting with "CUP"?
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Spikestuff wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
I can simply press start to not input a guess at a word and move onto the next word in the sequence.
Works in Alternative Mode. Not Regular.
Regular Mode will force you to get an answer right.
You're correct for progressing through the game...but I was referring to building a spreadsheet of answer sequences. If you give up trying to guess a word, the game will move on to the next word in the sequence.
I'm doing this as much for the RTA community as I am for TASing.
EDIT: For anyone interested, here is my (in-progress) spreadsheet of word sequences. I've listed the first 10 words in each sequence. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12_ealGeGx_VdxQLL0J2xylnTWGoEjA7itqnwEeJF7wc/edit?usp=sharing
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Wow...I just realized how much of an idiot I am. I can simply press start to not input a guess at a word and move onto the next word in the sequence.
Well that was a bunch of unnecessary time wasted.
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CUP and TEARDROP are the starting words for the two short sequences I've found thus far.
I'm not good enough at lua to completely automate the testing.
I've just been using one to display the answer on the screen and one to limit token movement to 1 space at a time to speed up the time between puzzles. I've been manually inputting the letters.
Here are my lua scripts:
--Display Answer
local x = 0
local y = 10
local i = 0
local l = 0
local lvalue = 0
function letter()
if lvalue==10 then
return ("A")
else
if lvalue==11 then
return ("B")
else
if lvalue==12 then
return ("C")
else
if lvalue==13 then
return ("D")
else
if lvalue==14 then
return ("E")
else
if lvalue==15 then
return ("F")
else
if lvalue==16 then
return ("G")
else
if lvalue==17 then
return ("H")
else
if lvalue==18 then
return ("I")
else
if lvalue==19 then
return ("J")
else
if lvalue==20 then
return ("K")
else
if lvalue==21 then
return ("L")
else
if lvalue==22 then
return ("M")
else
if lvalue==23 then
return ("N")
else
if lvalue==24 then
return ("O")
else
if lvalue==25 then
return ("P")
else
if lvalue==26 then
return ("Q")
else
if lvalue==27 then
return ("R")
else
if lvalue==28 then
return ("S")
else
if lvalue==29 then
return ("T")
else
if lvalue==30 then
return ("U")
else
if lvalue==31 then
return ("V")
else
if lvalue==32 then
return ("W")
else
if lvalue==33 then
return ("X")
else
if lvalue==34 then
return ("Y")
else
if lvalue==35 then
return ("Z")
else
return ("")
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
end
while true do
while i<16 do
i=i+1
l=l+1
x=x+15
lvalue= memory.readbyte (0x447+l)
gui.text(x,y,letter())
--gui.text(x,y,str);
end
emu.frameadvance();
x = 0
i = 0
l = 0
lvalue = 0
end
--limit token movement to 1 space
while true do
x=memory.readbyte(0x89)
if x<255>0 then
memory.writebyte(0x89,0)
else end
end
emu.frameadvance();
end
There may be much more efficient ways to do these, but my programming knowledge is so limited that this is the best I can come up with.
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warmCabin wrote:
Meaning your findings will be optimal for every category, and I can steal your work collaborate with you easily.
Have you found a better sequence than "NO," "PIN," "THINK"...?
Thus far I haven't gotten to this sequence. While what I'm working on is much easier than manually playing every sequence to figure out the words, it's still time consuming to run through the various word sequences. I'll let you know when I get to that sequence.
warmCabin wrote:
Due to the 128 frame rule between entering your guess and the board appearing, the first 6 words almost don't matter. The final word (on which we end our movie) is much more important. And since my final word is "THIRD FLOOR," I think we can do much better.
All the words will matter because of the time it takes to input the words. Part of what I'm looking into with my work is total letters of input for the run. Currently my shortest two word sequences require 27 and 28 letter inputs. The average for sequences I've tested require around 40 letter inputs.
warmCabin wrote:
I assume you've figured out the text encoding...
Yep.
warmCabin wrote:
What's the TASmania project, btw? I had trouble finding results that weren't about the actual island of Tasmania...
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MUGG wrote:
Few seconds faster than the previous video.
I'm unhappy I had to wait until the white ? became a flamethrower (? items can have a good or a bad effect depending on timing) and that the left ninja waited...
This game really is RNG hell...
Try changing your RTC setting to see if you can get the flamethrower faster. Open your movie file in a text editor and change the Initial RTC time. From my experience with some games, it can take a change of at least 1000 to elicit a change in RNG (but that may be game specific).
If changing RTC time works, you may be able to get the flamethrower without waiting at all.
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DungeonFacts wrote:
I've been warned by the runners in the Crystal Caves speedrunning Discord server that RNG for enemy movement and falling rocks will probably present issues on future levels. I've noticed that the movie I've recorded has identical movement for the green slimes each time that I've run it, so I would like to know if a movie uses the same RNG seeds each time it runs. I really hope I don't have to dig into doing RNG manipulation and memory editing if I can help it.
The RNG should always be the same for each play of the movie because the factors that alter the RNG are the same. Factors can include (but aren't limited to) any previous key presses as well as RTC time. JPC-rr sets the RTC to a set time at assembly, and that information is saved in the movie file; so the movie played back will always have the same RNG.
Some notes/thoughts on your test run:
1) I believe the intro video of the ship flying around in space can be skipped.
2) There is a glitch that allows for skipping two of the stages. I'm not sure how it works, but i've seen RTA runners do it, so they may be able to help explain how to perform the glitch and maybe even why it works.
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c-square wrote:
I have a small concern that "No pressing start to skip minigames" will exclude it from being vaultable, but I think we can make an argument that there's no valid run without that.
So I was curious about this game and decided to throw together a TAS myself. If nothing else, any submission that is optimized (even if deemed not worthy of publication due to vault rules) can be included in the TASmania project.
While minimal, there is still opportunity for optimization and (very mild) RNG manipulation even when using 'start' to skip the mini-games.
Aside from the fact that intentionally losing them is exactly the opposite of what the developers intended, the failed mini-games don't really add much entertainment value to a viewer in my opinion. I highly doubt it'd be enough to bump a run to moons. I also doubt that the little optimization available (with or without) the mini-games will be enough to lift this game above board-game status. I'd love to be wrong on this though.
My current WIP is Regular Mode and roughly 6100 frames with no mini-games. I think it may be possible to shorten. I have a theory and am researching a possible way to quickly evaluate all practical word sequences to find which would be the fastest.
warmCabin, please don't let my comments stop you from working on your TAS. I'm curious to see the community's response if you and I both end up submitting runs using different rules/strategies. Perhaps one will be deemed vault eligible.
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c-square wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
I can get you guys this new FreeDOS image if you like.
Yes, please!! The 1:1 mouse ratio is reason enough for me to go to this.
I sent you a PM with details.
Also, I may be able to update the current Floppy image of FreeDOS to default the mouse to 1:1 as well. I'll let you know asap.
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I was able to replicate the glitchy video as you are experiencing it. Using the same settings as you.
The video issue is somehow tied to the version of FreeDOS.
I then tried running the game with a newer (and more robust) version of FreeDOS. The video was clean.(I'll post a video as soon as youtube lets me upload).
The version of FreeDOS I used is the newest version available from the FreeDOS website. I had previously created a new image with this version for CD testing. My new version, however, is an HDD image instead of a Floppy image.
So to use my version in JPC-rr, you have to mount the FreeDOS image in hda and change the boot setting at the bottom of the assembly window to hda instead of fda.
Mount the game image in hdb. hdb will be drive D:
I can get you guys this new FreeDOS image if you like. I do not have an account anywhere that offers indefinite file hosting, otherwise I'd just post a link to the image here.
Other features of my FreeDOS image:
1) More memory settings/options upon bootup
2) CD-ROM support (if the fdconfig.sys and autoexec.bat files aren't skipped).
3) 1:1 mouse support as default instead of accelerated mouse movements
Any runs using my version of FreeDOS will have slightly longer boot times than those using the current FreeDOS.
If you guys get and like the new version, I'll contact the site admins and see what it would take to update the JPC-rr page to include my version as an option.
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DungeonFacts wrote:
My main questions so far:
1. Is there a TAS-focused guide on using JPC-RR after it's been installed? I've seen links to the formal documentation for the application, but I'm not sure how useful it will be to just dive headfirst into the manual.
There's no TAS-focused guide that I'm aware of. I personally read the stuff available through this site and basically stumbled my way through the rest of it. I'm still learning.
DungeonFacts wrote:
2. Are there any other tools used for DOS runs besides JPC-RR? I haven't seen any obvious way to review the contents of a recorded video or edit what has been created (minus simply pausing the video and revising the subsequent actions), so I'm not clear if there's anything else I should be aware of. I've seen c-squared's post on some lua scripts, but without any programming experience I'll save that for after I've learned the basic tool.
JPC-rr automatically records all events (key presses, mouse movements, etc), starting fresh each time you assemble.
The movie files (and savestates) are .jrsr files which contain the event information. They can be edited directly, but it's quite difficult to do so as desyncs are almost guaranteed. While c-square's scripts can make doing this manual editing somewhat easier, desyncs still can occur.
There is unfortunately no TAStuido type interface for JPC-rr. Thus TASing DOS games can be a tedious endeavor as trying to change anything (no matter how small) at a point earlier in your movie typically causes desyncs all the way through forcing all actions after the edit to be redone. For that reason, try to optimize each section to as close to perfect as you can get it before moving forward.
DungeonFacts wrote:
3. Specific to running Crystal Caves (the only program I've run so far) it runs slowly if I just tell the game to 'Start' after assembly and let it run freely. Obviously doing single-frame advances will be slow, but I'm guessing JPC doesn't run at the same speed as DOSBox when running an application? Also, I get some artifacting when advancing through the game's opening movie, and I don't know if that's because I need to use different video settings, if the game itself isn't suited to JPC, or if I'm just using the tools incorrectly.
I'm not sure on the video issue, but otherwise Crystal Caves should be a worthwhile endeavor (I've considered doing it myself). JPC-rr is SLOW....which is part of what makes DOS TASing tedious. Frame advance is one option, the other is making efficient use of savestates. The most recent version of JPC-rr isn't the easiest for TASing; instead I would recommend c-squares modified version which allows for infinite savestates and much easier mouse implementation.
DungeonFacts wrote:
I've tried to do my homework before asking any questions, and I've made a little progress, but I think I may have jumped into the deep end of things by looking into DOS games and selecting a title without any existing TAS videos. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Many people in the community would agree that jumping into DOS first is definitely diving into the deep end of the TASing world. But that doesn't mean you can't do it.
c-square and slamo both have good experience with DOS TASing, and I'm getting more proficient myself.
We'll help you as we can. Welcome to the world of DOS TASing!
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warmCabin wrote:
Btw, this game isn't on the drop down list! It's almost as if this is a really obscure and kinda bad game that no one cares about. This may need to be rectified if I make actual submissions of these movies.
Only games with published runs are in the drop-down list on the submission form. If you submit and your run is accepted, it will then be in the list. If you're going to submit, just select (default) for your game on the submission form.
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c-square wrote:
Good run. Yes vote! And the fact that this is only 19 ms faster than the RTA shows how insane the real-time run was. I'm assuming the cars are always in the same spots and there's no RNG, correct?
Opponent car position is mildly manipulable. Your speed an distance traveled can impact when other cars arrive, but the order (which row shows up 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc) is pretty consistent. Vertical position doesn't seem to change this.
Also, the speed/distance combination will affect whether an oil slick causes an upward or downward slide. So they are also mildly manipulable.
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nymx wrote:
Yes! Top speed makes a good showing. Just curious, were you braking at certain spots due to unavoidable traffic?
There are a couple times where braking is necessary. In the first section of the race there's a 'wall' of 4 cars (one in each row) that requires you to slow down to pass.
In a later section (I don't remember exactly which) a very brief (1-2 frame) brake is necessary to manipulate the arrival of red car on the top row to show up a bit earlier than the cars in the three rows below. This allows for a faster passing of this group. If this braking isn't done, the four cars will instead end up as another 'wall'.
Hitting the oil slicks makes the same sound as braking, but doesn't slow down the car. These oil slick sounds could be confused as random braking.
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ViGadeomes wrote:
I apologize... Making a TAS without any knowledges and searches :')... I'm a wrong TASer ! (I didn't know how I could find useful addresses)
I put you as extra editor on my submission. Thank you and sorry!
Don't feel bad, we all learn at different paces. I'm not an expert either.
FYI,
RAM values I've found fairly quickly:
0x2F - Player Car's Vertical Position
0x69 - Race Track Position - Race ends when = 255
0x6F - Car Speed (there may be more involved than just this value...vertical movements don't seem to affect it).
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Looks pretty well done.
Honestly it's not as entertaining as I'd hoped. Primarily because it seemed like there was as much time spent watching repeated cutscenes as there was watching actual game play....but that's not your fault.
As far as voting, I'm borderline between 'meh' and 'yes'; but I'll give it a 'yes' simply because I understand how much of a pain DOS TASing can be (which adds a bit to impressiveness/entertainment in my opinion).
Congrats on your first DOS TAS.
Side Note:
I don't remember the crew of the Enterprise having quite the Arnold physique.
