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c-square wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
c-square wrote:
But, there is a faster way through the slots:
1) Bet 1 -> Eye | Diamond | Eye
2) Bet 1 -> Diamond | Cherry | Eye
3) Y-Enter
4) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
5) Y-Enter
6) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
7) Y-Enter
8) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Cherry
9) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Skull | Cherry
10) Y-Enter
11) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
12) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Diamond
13) Bet 1 -> Skull | Diamond | Skull
14) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Diamond | Skull
15) Y-Enter
16) Bet 3 -> Diamond | Diamond | Diamond
This is incorrect at step 13. Also my symbols don't always match yours, perhaps there's something different somewhere that we missed?
Is there a reason not to bid 3 on a winning spin? I didn't think the bid amount affected the random seed.
EDIT: Using your sequence up through 12, then performing a Y command gets the sequence back onto my original one at seed 14510; however with a higher money value. This results in one less spin on the slots before breaking it.
Hmm... what symbols do you get? If they don't match then I've got something off in my spreadsheet. Also, always be sure to see the losing message on any of the "bet 1s". Choosing that message uses up a random call.
A spin that results in just one starting cherry simply gives your money back, so it doesn't matter what you bet. I chose 2 to differentiate between winning spins, losing spins and break-even spins. That, and the number 2 seemed lonely. ;)
I'll double check on the Bet 1 spins and make sure I wasn't doing the next action too quickly.
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c-square wrote:
But, there is a faster way through the slots:
1) Bet 1 -> Eye | Diamond | Eye
2) Bet 1 -> Diamond | Cherry | Eye
3) Y-Enter
4) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
5) Y-Enter
6) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
7) Y-Enter
8) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Cherry
9) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Skull | Cherry
10) Y-Enter
11) Bet 3 -> Eye | Eye | Eye
12) Bet 3 -> Cherry | Cherry | Diamond
13) Bet 1 -> Skull | Diamond | Skull
14) Bet 2 -> Cherry | Diamond | Skull
15) Y-Enter
16) Bet 3 -> Diamond | Diamond | Diamond
This is incorrect at step 13. Also my symbols don't always match yours, perhaps there's something different somewhere that we missed?
Is there a reason not to bid 3 on a winning spin? I didn't think the bid amount affected the random seed.
EDIT: Using your sequence up through 12, then performing a Y command gets the sequence back onto my original one at seed 14510; however with a higher money value. This results in one less spin on the slots before breaking it.
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c-square wrote:
Also, I've pretty much figured out how to add joystick input via keyboard to JPC-rr. Do you want to use it to help you in the tight spots, or are you okay going on without it?
Thanks for the better slot sequence.
Since I'm through the skimmer portion and we have a good run for Slots, I don't see a reason to redo the skimmer portion with joystick control.
Radiant wrote:
The idea behind writing
(3) Little is up with you, I guess, yes?
was to have the typed commands give the opposite result of what they appear to do, as much as possible. So Roger answers positively at first and he does not sell the skimmer, and the second time he answers negatively and does sell it. Writing YES!! kind of negates that.
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Update on current WIP.
I start with a RTC to yield no guards on the Arcada.
I use the 'Y' command to obtain the longest delay for the spider droid (He unfortunately still arrives).
I use one 'Y' command to skate past the Acid drops.
I manually cruise through the Skimmer sequence without hitting rocks.
Skimmer is not stolen in Ulence Flats.
'Y' commands utilized to obtain shortest death time for the alien at the slot machines (he dies before I can get there walking directly from the entrance).
Using the spreadsheet of seed values, I conquer the slots in under 2.5 seconds.
If that is satisfactory, then I'll continue to the end of the run and submit. If we think we can get it better using manipulation of the rocks in the skimmer sequence, I'll wait.
As it stands, seed values at the following locations:
Beginning of the Skimmer run - 27165
First input after entering Slot Machine - 25105
Link to video
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Radiant wrote:
Right, so those acid drops are pretty straightforward....the odds are good that the seed you already have will get you past them.
Good to know. What I originally meant with my question was, do we want to try and manipulate the random calls to control what seed we get coming out of that room?
Or do we just want to see where it's at when entering the skimmer sequence?
c-square wrote:
Looks like there's no delay for joystick input. It should be easy to update JPC-rr so you can use the number keys to control the joystick, if you'd like.
My first question: Is that much work necessary? What is the potential range of seed changes that can happen through the skimmer sequence?
Second question: Might it be simpler to just make a run with my current RTC time and see where the seed is at the end of the skimmer sequence when performed manually; compare that number with the seed spreadsheet and see where it leaves us for the slots; then use that information to determine how much manipulation we actually need to worry about during the skimmer sequence?
If we end up with a relatively good starting point for the slots with this method, we don't have to try and automate so much of the skimmer sequence.
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I've found an initial RTC that yields no guards on the Arcada and only requires one 'y' input to advance the random seed to yield the longest time for the spider droid to appear.
I've run through the game up through exiting the escape pod and was able to confirm that variable v93 was set to 250, which I believe is the longest possible.
Now then...Do we want to try and manipulate acid drops, or just deal with the random seed where we are when we get past them?
Also on the note of randomness...
Does the guy who buys the skimmer work on an RNG timer? Does the blue droid in the Deltaur airlock work on one?
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SUCCESS!
I've got a spreadsheet that works for choosing what starting seed I want.
It took a combination of calculations and brute force to complete the spreadsheet, but it's done. I can now set the initial RTC to yield a desired seed value upon Room 2.
Now to see if I can find a starting RTC that yields the longest spider droid delay as well as no guards on the Arcada.
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c-square wrote:
I just had another thought: how about using joystick input to get around the clunky frame limitation of typing? It could well make for better routes, and may make tackling the skimmer sequence easier.
For what it's worth, I don't mind doing the skimmer sequence manually. It just won't give us as much control of the random seed heading into Ulence Flats if I do so.
Speaking of randomization in Ulence Flats. Once we decide on a final process for the skimmer sequence, I'll see what I can do about not having to take the key out of the skimmer to save a few frames.
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fsvgm777 wrote:
Radiant wrote:
.INF files are not used by the AGI game engine, so this can safely be ignored or deleted.
This requires some slight tinkering with the movie file, so that it uses the proper HDD (the one that doesn't contain the SIERRA.INF).
Here it is. The actual input remains unchanged, as all I did was remove the SIERRA.INF file (or rather, create a new HDD without the SIERRA.INF).
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That pattern continues all the way through RTC 58000 but then breaks down.
And, no, I did not brute force test all 60 possibilities. I wrote a formula, but it only worked up to that point.
RTC of 59000 has a 0xC649 difference the previous seed. That shouldn't be expected until RTC 60000.
Then RTC of 60000 returns to the 0x4296 difference.
My formula worked for a while, but then broke down...I'm missing something.
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Radiant wrote:
The initial seed is (time in seconds) * 20 + ((time in milliseconds) / 1000) * 20
BUT note that creating the seed will immediately advance it once (i.e. to generate the first random number in logic 2, which is then ignored since guards can't spawn the first time you enter the room). So the value you'll see in your lua panel is the seed AFTER one advancement.
I appreciate your attempts, but I'm not following you. Sorry.
I have discovered this though
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Radiant wrote:
Well, yes. First, although the initial seed depends on the amount of milliseconds since midnight, the game's internal framerate is only about 12 frames per second. That means that every batch of (1000 / 12) = 83 milliseconds will yield the same seed.
But it doesn't. It takes a change of 1000 milliseconds in the RTC setting to yield a different seed.
EDIT: And it recycles every 86400000 milliseconds (1 day).
So it seems that we're limited to 86,400 potential options for our initial seed. What I'm trying to figure out is a way to calculate what RTC time will yield the initial seed we want for the game. I don't particularly want to manually test 86,400 options.
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I tested my theory of changing the initial RTC within the savestate file. It didn't work. It took a change of at least 1000 to yield a different initial seed at the beginning of room 2.
Further, that seed did not change equally to the change in RTC timer. For example:
According to c-squares lua script. The number of 'changes' when the initial is set varies drastically with different initial RTC values as well.
Any ideas?
EDIT: With further testing...
Starting RTC of 86400000 = Starting of 0
Starting RTC of 86401000 = Starting of 1000
So it seems that a change of at least 1 whole second in RTC value is necessary to change the initial seed....though that still doesn't explain why the initial seed changes at a different rate than the milliseconds after midnight.
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Radiant wrote:
On the first screen, enter this command before doing anything else (not necessary, but fitting for a speedrun)
First, please clock me in, sir.
What does that do, and will it cause a text box that will add frames to the run?
It is possible to change the game-speed at the beginning using the 'fastest' command even before the visual of room 2 is completely loaded. This enables Roger to exit the room before the intro text shows up, thus saving a few frames of time.
c-square wrote:
Here, let me give you something so you can do it ...
Give it a shot and let me know if it works!
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If I start a run and do a savestate after the first room , could you get me the initial seed value? I think I could then use that information to edit the initial RTC in the save state file to achieve the longest Spider Droid timer. Make sense?
EDIT: This save for example.
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OK so that confirms that the random call for setting the spider droid timer doesn't happen until AFTER exiting the crashed escape pod.
So was the initial seed value set at room 2, or at room 4?
It looks like my original thought was correct of 5-6 being the minimum possible before the spider droid timer is set.
It looks like the acid drips and skimmer sequence are going to have a much greater impact on where we are seed wise when we get to the slots. I'd say that definitely suggests that we try to maximize the timer for the spider droid.
If I start a run and do a savestate after the first room , could you get me the initial seed value? I think I could then use that information to edit the initial RTC in the save state file to achieve the longest Spider Droid timer. Make sense?
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If I understand Logic.000 correctly,
Getting something increases the random seed.
looking at something increases the random seed.
entering something increases the random seed.
specifically typing "use" something increases the random seed
Or maybe these only increase random if the 'something' is a non-recognized object in the game.
Radiant, can you clarify/confirm?
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OK the above is for sure incorrect.
If I understand Logic.000 correctly,
Getting something increases the random seed.
looking at something increases the random seed.
entering something increases the random seed.
specifically typing "use" something increases the random seed
also, if flag f2 is set AND flag f4 is not set, random is called.
I have no idea what these two flags are.
So...the following is probably more accurate, but may still be incorrect due to the f2 & f4 flags
2 - Janitor Closet (Starting Room) - RANDOM CALLED 1x
1 - Data Archive - no random calls
4 - Hallway w damaged door - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
3 - Keycard Body - RANDOM CALLED 1x by getting keycard.
4 - Hallway w damaged door - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
2 - Janitor Closet bottom floor - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
5 - Bottom of elevator - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
6 - Control room - no random calls
7 - Keycard Slot - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
9 - Prep Room - RANDOM CALLED 2x for getting suit and for getting translator
8 - Shuttle Bay - RANDOM CALLED 1x for entering pod
10 - Inside Escape Pod - no random calls
8 - Shuttle Bay (briefly as escape pod launches) - no random calls
12 - Escaping Arcada - No random calls
10 - Inside Escape Pod - no random calls
104 - AutoNav Status Screen - no random calls
13 - Kerona Approach animation - no random calls
30 - Crash Site - RANDOM CALLED 1 or more times (maybe)
14 - Inside Crashed Escape Pod - no random calls
30 - Crash Site - RANDOM CALLED 1 or more times
So it looks like the minimum is 10 calls before the spider droid timer is set. Again, this DOESN'T include random calls by the f2 & f4 flags.
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I'm probably going to need Radiant's help with this...
Here's the sequence of rooms from beginning in Room 2 until exiting the crashed escape pod.
2 - Janitor Closet (Starting Room) - RANDOM CALLED 1x
1 - Data Archive - no random calls
4 - Hallway w damaged door - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
3 - Keycard Body - no random calls
4 - Hallway w damaged door - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
2 - Janitor Closet bottom floor - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
5 - Bottom of elevator - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
6 - Control room - no random calls
7 - Keycard Slot - RANDOM CALLED 1-2x
9 - Prep Room - no random calls
8 - Shuttle Bay - no random calls
10 - Inside Escape Pod - no random calls
8 - Shuttle Bay (briefly as escape pod launches) - no random calls
12 - Escaping Arcada - No random calls
10 - Inside Escape Pod - no random calls
104 - AutoNav Status Screen - no random calls
13 - Kerona Approach animation - no random calls
30 - Crash Site - RANDOM CALLED 1 or more times (maybe)
14 - Inside Crashed Escape Pod - no random calls
30 - Crash Site - RANDOM CALLED 1 or more times
Any room where a guard can attack, calls logic.103 which has a random call in it. (timer for the attack?)
The key question is, does the spider droid random call happen when the crash site room is shown DURING the crash or does the counter not start until AFTER exiting escape pod into room 30?
It looks like we may be able to manipulate the initial RTC timer to have as few as 6 random calls before entering room 30 where the spider droid counter is set.
Unfortunately room 30 itself is complicated (to me). It calls logic.110 which itself has 6 random calls in it. So the actual number of random seeds before the spider droid counter may be more.
Can you confirm/clarify this theory?
