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SonicFan53 wrote:
OK, so, I wanna collaborate on a TAS of this game.
You'll be much more likely to find someone willing to collaborate with you (on any game - let alone this one) if you first prove you are capable of making a publishable (or at minimum, a relatively optimized) TAS on your own.
Otherwise--and this is somewhat based on your posts in other threads of the forum--it comes across that you're just wanting to split the glory from someone else's hard work.
Essentially, show us you're worthy of collaborating with.
Many of us have numerous projects we're working on (within and without the TAS community); and we either don't have the time or simply don't want to hold someone else's hand through the TASing process if they aren't going to be a beneficial collaborator.
I do not intend for this post to come across as rude, more just to-the-point.
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Here's an update utilizing the shortcut shown above.
Due to changes in RNG, doors and some weapon firing/movement patterns were not as cooperative and thus I did not quite make the 600 frame savings estimated.
This file is still 448 frames faster than the original submission.
If I didn't perfectly re-sync the inputs after the shortcut, it's possible I may have missed an occasional frame or two somewhere.
Hmm. I'd be amazed if it didn't. From a quick estimate just looking at location, I'd guess probably around a 600-800 frame savings over this submission.
When I originally tested jumping down from there, I died. And given that I don't lose any health before that point, I assumed that falling from there was an instant death situation. I didn't consider that the death resulted from starting the game with less than maximum health.
So to utilize that shortcut, I'd have to pick up some health prior to that point. But the extra time for the health pickup (approximately 40ish frames) would be much shorter than the detour around this shortcut that is used in this submission.
As this is rather close to the beginning of the game, much of the later stuff would likely desync requiring the remainder of the game to be essentially redone/resynced.
I'm willing to redo this run adding in the shortcut. Most of the run would otherwise be the same visually. So...should I cancel this submission....or have you put it on a delayed judgement until I can update the run?
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Radiant wrote:
What's with the screen after the boss that you killed the wrong monster?
I believe this is simply an intended joke by the devs.
mklip2001 wrote:
The rerecord tally only says 3, though? Has Bizhawk had rerecord bugs lately?
As this run was created over the course of multiple BizHawk releases including dev builds, the final .bk2 was created with a copy/paste of those final inputs. The actual rerecord count is unknown and I really have no way to estimate.
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nymx wrote:
Wow! To start off...Yes vote.
I was surprised by this. DrD2k9 with another fine submission. I wondered about some of the slow downs, but I finally figured them out to be "hold ups" from other actions on the screen...correct?
Most visual slowdowns are due to lag from explosions, delaying motion to not take death dealing damage, or motion alterations to make sure the target location on screen is reached. Even still, there are few slowdowns and constant motion is maintained as much as possible.
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In the newest release (2.3.3), the option to Clone inputs in TAStudio is broken.
In the below image, the left is what I was trying to clone. The right is what resulted.
This occurs with both keyboard shortcut (Control + Insert) and using the Edit/right-click menu.
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I hate to have to say this, but in a way I'm glad I get to.
This movie isn't max score.
ViGadeomes had some ideas that panned out and we are working on some improvements to this run that will increase the score. The resulting video will be longer in time, but will be a higher score.
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My $.02 regarding timing convention between end-of-input vs reaching some 'end-game' point in the game's code:
Having the metric for timing to be variable on a game-by-game basis makes much more sense than holding all submissions to either one or the other perspective. For some games, there could be equal value from both perspectives; just different methods of execution. My understanding is that this is how things currently are done on the site, if there's a consensus on the timing method used; otherwise shortest input is typically the default.
As Personman said, the accomplishment of a 5 minute TAS for a 2 hour run is pretty superhuman, even if it may not be as satisfying to watch as a run that got to the end-game in 30 minutes but required input the whole time.
I personally don't have a problem with 2 different Monopoly runs published. I can enjoy and be impressed by either variation for this game.
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Asnivor wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
For others who may be curious. I've already completed a TAS of this, but there's something wrong with ZX emulation in BizHawk that results in the game's music not playing...I'm delaying submission until this problem is solved (a bug report has already been submitted).
This should now be resolved in the master branch (dev build). With any luck the changes wont have caused any desyncs, but that all depends on whether the game is trying to read from the AY register on the same (some might say non-standard) port that it is trying to write to. This seems unlikely, but check for desyncs anyway.
Yep works great. No desyncs. I'll looking at submitting this once the next official release happens.
For others who may be curious. I've already completed a TAS of this, but there's something wrong with ZX emulation in BizHawk that results in the game's music not playing...I'm delaying submission until this problem is solved (a bug report has already been submitted).
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EZGames69 wrote:
The only reason why you see temp encodes with not great quality is because people dont know how to make higher quality ones.
...or because some of us who make less than stellar quality temp encodes aren't as particular about the quality of a temporary encode knowing it's going to be re-encoded for publication anyway.
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InfamousKnight wrote:
I dont think so. Super mario bros 64 Zeropaige was recently fixed and it also works on linux. I think it might be the renderer.
SMB 64 doesn't work on the most recent windows release of bizhawk (2.3.2). There are graphical issues. This has been fixed in the developer builds. Is linux BizHawk based on these?
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feos wrote:
...Not having strictly capped max score makes it worse.
It may not have a strictly capped max score in the sense of 'the score is not allowed to go higher than xxxx.' But the coded movement mechanics (even as simplistic as they are) will ultimately limit the maximum achievable score to a particular value.
Therefore, a run that utilizes the game's coded mechancis to achieve this score will have achieved the 'max' score.
The only exception to this would be if someone discovered a glitch allowing for surpassing/bypassing the intended mechanics to yield a higher score. This would be analogous to the metroidvania examples mentioned earlier than can achieve greater than 100% due to new discoveries/glitches.
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To everyone who cares, and for what it's worth: This submission is definitively sub-optimal. I have indeed found input improvements that beat this submission's score. So submitting just those would show this run not to be max score.
Further, this submission uses PAL sync settings making the timing slower than it should be; the 1500m should take 3:33 according to the in-game timer, but it actually takes about 4:15 based on the encode. /the game should have been run in NTSC sync settings to begin with (I'm not even sure if I even knew much about sync settings at the time of this runs creation. If I did, this setting slipped my attention somehow).
Finally, I am currently re-working this game in the proper NTSC mode while also attempting to break down the events at a code level to determine a true maximum score per event based on the game mechanics. Once/If I can accomplish this, a new submission or userfile will be uploaded. That update should be definitively max score and therefore vault eligible.
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feos wrote:
The problem is quite simple and precise: the actual completion requirements are missing from the game.
While I do wish there were ways to make these kinds of games acceptable, I see this perspective and understand where it comes from.
I understood the original rejection reason, and I understand why the lack of clearly defined completion criteria could result in another rejection. Ultimately, you're the senior judge and the decision is up to you.
I, for one, feel it would be nice to have such runs on the site, although I don't have any further suggestions at this point on how to add/modify the rules to allow such games with undefined completion criteria. Side Note: I am open to contribute to discussion on helping find a way to make these type of games acceptable.
If nothing else, the re-judging of this run helps to further clarify the current rules we have by offering an example of what may not qualify.
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I'll admit that the following may appear biased because I'm the author of this submission, but I do believe the arguments would be valid for any game such as this.
I'd argue that a high score in itself is a meaningful completion criteria. For many older games, the whole design of the game was about achieving (and competing) for a high score table. While this game doesn't yield a high-score table, the completion criteria of achieving the highest possible score is still the end goal.
For this reason, games such as this (other decathlon games and likely some other genres) are achieving the intended completion goal...even if poor performance doesn't yield a different visual outcome.
We could consider it this way for TASing purposes: A run that fails to achieve a maximum score, fails to achieve the completion criteria of achieving the highest score for the various events. A run that achieves the highest possible score has achieved the completion criteria.
The biggest issue is "what is the highest possible score?"
Without the knowledge to break down the game code to mathematically determine this from the game's code, the only way to know the highest possible score is to achieve it through performance.
So for judging such games, I'd suggest that a run which seemingly can't be beaten from a score standpoint stands as an adequate value for this theoretical 'maximum' score and could be published. If someone else were to find a way to surpass that score (after the original has been published) then we learn that the original 'maximum' score wasn't actually the best and the new run would obsolete the old. This is essentially how we treat speed based runs already. We publish what we perceive as the fastest completion even if it hasn't been a guaranteed fastest by code breakdown; then we allow for obsoleting by a faster submission that we didn't previously realize was possible.
To put the comparison very simply:
Highest known achievable score = Fastest known achievable completion time
Newer and higher high score obsoletes older lower score = newer fastest completion time obsoletes older (no longer) fastest completion time
To uphold the site's general desire for speed, the fastest method of achieving the highest know score is preferred over a slower method of achieving the same score.
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Untested thought regarding Freestyle (don't have time to test at the moment): Would pumping the character between tricks to gain speed then do a plant trick to turn around be faster than what's presented here?
The plant tricks wouldn't jump, but may be a longer trick than these simple turns, but perhaps the added speed (if it actually speeds up the character) might make up for the longer trick and yield a shorter session.
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NxCy wrote:
DrD2k9 wrote:
EDIT: Another way to look at it, (possibly more simply), it's the effect of inertia and the balance of forces on your own body's mass in relation to the earth that affect how heavy you feel.
When moving upward, you have to accelerate your own center of mass using at a force greater than that of gravity to ascend the ladder.
When moving downward, you only have to match gravity's force to ascend the ladder and keep your own center of mass suspended in space. Thus it feels easier.
Why? Suppose I am standing in the elevator. Even if the elevator is moving down (relative to the surface of the Earth) at a constant speed, I will have a weight, mg, which, when standing, is balanced by the reaction force from the floor, i.e. it'll feel exactly the same as being stationary standing on the surface of the Earth. If I want to accelerate myself upwards, I will need to exert a force that is greater than mg. If I only 'match gravity's force', then my net force will be 0 and I won't accelerate. From the point of view of someone on the Earth's surface, if I 'match gravity', then my net force is 0, but since I was already moving down at the same rate as the elevator, I will continue to do so and remain stationary relative to the elevator's floor.
Yea...I see the flaw in my thought processes.
I'll edit my previous posts.
The only time someone should feel a different weight is when the elevator is accelerating/decelerating. These would be the only time when the external forces being exerted on one's body are changing.
Specifically, these would be the only times the pressure sensors (nerves) in the skin would perceive different forces, which the brain would interpret as feeling heaver/lighter.
What I wrote regarding the ball dropping should be accurate though.
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Warp wrote:
If the elevator is going down at a great speed, even if it's at constant velocity, it will be much easier to jump, requiring significantly less effort. If the elevator is going up at a great speed, it will be harder to jump, requiring more effort.
But what explains that? It's hard to wrap one's head around it.
Did you miss my response?
Specifically this part:
EDIT: Another way to look at it, (possibly more simply), it's the effect of inertia and the balance of forces on your own body's mass in relation to the earth that affect how heavy you feel.
When moving upward, you have to accelerate your own center of mass using at a force greater than that of gravity to ascend the ladder.
When moving downward, you only have to match gravity's force to ascend the ladder and keep your own center of mass suspended in space. Thus it feels easier.
Let me add a couple words and it may clarify further. (added words bolded, important words underlined)
Another way to look at it, (possibly more simply), it's the effect of inertia and the balance of forces on your own body's mass in relation to the earth that affect how heavy you feel (and how much perceived effort it takes to change position of your body's center of mass in realtion to the earth's surface).
When the elevator is moving upward, you have to accelerate your own center of mass using at a force greater than that of gravity to ascend the ladder and move your own center of gravity further from the earth's surface.
When moving downward in the elevator, you only have to match gravity's force to 'ascend' the ladder and keep your own center of mass suspended in space at a given distance from the Earth's surface. Thus it feels easier.
The effort required to exert a force greater than gravity is greater than the effort required to exert a force equal to gravity.
For further clarification regarding this part of your initial question:Warp wrote:
If you are in a lift that's going up at a constant speed, you'll feel heavier (and it will be harder for you to eg. climb a ladder). If the lift is going down at a constant speed, you'll feel lighter.
This actually isn't true. If you are standing stationary in the moving elevator (thus moving at the same vertical speed as the elevator) you'd feel your normal weight. It's only when you try to move within the elevator (thereby changing the position of your body's center of mass in relation to the earth) that you feel a different weight. The perceived weight change is only a perception based on the amount of effort required to move your center of mass in relation to the earth's surface.
EDIT: This was a flawed thought process.
Warp wrote:
A related question: If you drop a ball inside the elevator, does it acceleration towards the floor depend on the vertical speed of the elevator? (If the answer is no, then it's even more puzzling.)
No, its acceleration is not affected by the speed of the elevator. It will accelerate toward the earth at the standard acceleration due to gravitational force. When it meets the floor of the elevator, it will stop/bounce due to the Normal force exerted by the elevator's floor.
Further, the time it takes for the ball to reach the floor in the elevator moving at (any) constant velocity when dropped from 3 ft above the floor should be nearly equivalent to the time it takes the ball dropped from 3 ft above the floor to reach the floor in a stationary elevator. This is due to the ball's initial velocity matching the elevator's prior to being dropped. The ball's inertia wants to keep it moving in the same direction of the elevator, but gravity wants to accelerate the ball toward the floor. As gravity is constant (for a given distance), the acceleration toward the floor is equal regardless of what direction the elevator was traveling when the ball was dropped (or if the elevator wasn't moving to begin with).
If the elevator was traveling rapidly enough to have major change in distance from the earth's surface within the time that it takes the ball to fall, there may be very slight variation in fall-time as the instantaneous force exerted by gravity would change throughout the fall as distance changes; but it would need to be a significantly rapid speed to have a time difference perceptible to the naked eye (without measurement tools).
Just make sure you're not confusing an elevator moving downward at constant speed with the process of free-fall. Free-fall is an acceleration process, not constant velocity. Terminal Velocity is the limitation of free-fall due to force exerted by air resistance. Within the closed elevator there's no increased air resistance upon the ball simply because the elevator is moving.
The way training for weightless environments is simulated in airplanes like the "Vomit Comet" is by the plane approximating the acceleration due to the force of gravity (or free-fall). If the planes were flying at constant speed (even perfectly vertical), there'd be no perceived weightlessness.
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electricslide wrote:
...but the concerns raised were over, "why didn't you do x the way we would have preferred you to do x" and not over the quality of the submission, etc.
When an established preferred way of having things done for publication purposes has already been standardized on the site, not doing things that way without a warranted reason is exactly a reflection of the quality of the presented submission.
The quality of this movie itself may be fine on its own and may indeed be very entertaining for some; but for a submission that is being offered for publication on the site, the submission needs to adhere to the established/traditional quality standards of the site.
So questions regarding methods employed for the creation and submission of this run are indeed questions of the movie's quality as a submission.
Pointing out that this submission fails to match or beat the current publication on certain tracks shows that better is possible for those tracks. Unless there's a valid reason those tracks MUST be performed slower to accomplish a faster overall run, the criticism that this submission is sub-optimal is valid. If those tracks MUST be performed slower to accomplish the faster overall run, then it should be explained why to the best of the authors knowledge.
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Warp wrote:
Something that Bisqwit asked me made me think of something that I just can't figure out.
If you are in a lift that's going up at a constant speed, you'll feel heavier (and it will be harder for you to eg. climb a ladder). If the lift is going down at a constant speed, you'll feel lighter.
Or do you? How does this work?
If the lift is going down at a constant speed, you'll never be in free fall (because that would require an accelerating speed), no matter how fast the lift is going... but you still feel lighter? I can't figure this out.
It's an inertia/center of mass issue. As you are inside the elevator, your mass (and that of the ladder) can be considered part of the mass of the elevator itself.
When the elevator is rising, and you try to climb the ladder you are effectively shifting the center of mass of the entire elevator complex higher within the elevator at a more rapid pace than than constant speed the elevator is moving. Your action of accelerating this center of mass within the elevator complex require you to introduce the force necessary to move by using your body's muscles making you feel heavier as it requires greater exertion to introduce this force.
Going down is not quite but almost the opposite. As you try to climb the ladder you are still effectively shifting the center of mass of the entire elevator complex higher within the elevator. This time however, your actions are counteracting the accelerating force of gravity by allowing the center of mass to 'fall' slower while your climbing the ladder.
Because the total mass of the elevator system doesn't change due to your actions within, the overall system's speed is neither accelerated or decelerated in it's speed away from or toward the earth due to the change of forces applied within the interior of the elevator system.
If you aren't trying to move within the elevator, the center of mass of the entire system never shifts and you feel 'normal' weight during the constant motion. When standing still in an elevator, you only feel heaver/lighter during acceleration/deceleration because of the inertia of your body's own center of mass in relation to the earth.
It's all a balance of acceleration/deceleration. The moment you stop climbing the ladder (regardless of the direction the elevator is traveling) there's an opposite acceleration/deceleration of the systems center of mass to what you initiated a the bottom of the ladder.
Here's a video using a slinky to demonstrate center of mass and relation to gravity. It's not exactly the same but it shows how center of mass is important to how an entire system is impacted by gravity.
Link to video
EDIT: Another way to look at it, (possibly more simply), it's the effect of inertia and the balance of forces on your own body's mass in relation to the earth that affect how heavy you feel.
When moving upward, you have to accelerate your own center of mass using at a force greater than that of gravity to ascend the ladder.
When moving downward, you only have to match gravity's force to ascend the ladder and keep your own center of mass suspended in space. Thus it feels easier.
EDIT 2: This was a flawed thought process.
then
This occurs with both keyboard shortcut (Control + Insert) and using the Edit/right-click menu.