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1. When Sonic or Tails get hit, they flicker for exactly 2 seconds once they hit the ground (though falling and hitting the ground can take up to a full second), during which they are invulnerable.
2. The Metropolis Zone boss flashes for exactly 1 second when he gets hit (compared to 1/2 second for the other zone bosses).
3. When Sonic lands a hit, he can immediately take damage to cause the bubble to burst right away, but when I have Tails take the hit, it's always delayed by a short amount.
If I hit as rapidly as possible, character A (who took damage during the first hit) will still be flashing during the 3rd hit and won't be able to insta-pop the sphere - this is why the run I posted took 2 passes instead of just one. If I insert a delay between every other hit (i.e. get the first 2 hits as quickly as possible, then wait a short bit so I can get the 3rd and 4th hits without him getting away), I should be able to defeat the boss in a single pass.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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Note that I'm still not satisfied with the time I got on that boss - I'm sure if I work out the delays a bit differently, I can get it even faster.
After that, I get to decide what to do for the Sky Chase Zone playaround; Wing Fortress has some room for improvement, and Death Egg will be quite a bit faster...
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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I gave up on trying to do the Metropolis boss without taking damage - in order to maximize speed, the following method must be used:
1. Hit Robotnik when he's at the bottom of the screen, such that the sphere he releases collides with the floor.
2. Have either Sonic or Tails take damage - the sphere will immediately pop.
3. Repeat
The main problem here is that only ONE character can take damage during each hit - if both are flickering, then you have to wait for the sphere to expand before you can pop it (by which time Robotnik is back at the top of the screen). I've posted an attempt at using this technique, though it isn't perfect (and it'd take a huge amount of planning to get it perfect, since you'd have to time stuff 2 hits in advance).
Current status:
---------------- Current run ------ | Previous run ----- | TSC Records ------
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36 ------ | 0:19 - 0:37 ------ | 0:20 - 0:38 ------
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51 ------ | 0:20 - 1:04 ------ | 0:22 - 0:53 ------
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38 ------ | 0:24 - 0:44 ------ | 0:24 - 0:43 ------
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55 ------ | 0:26 - 1:01 ------ | 0:34 - 1:05 ------
Hill Top ------- 0:39 - 0:48 ------ | 0:45 - 1:00 ------ | 0:48 - 1:03 ------
Mystic Cave ---- 0:28 - 0:37 ------ | 0:35 - 0:41 ------ | 0:40 - 0:49 ------
Oil Ocean ------ 0:26 - 0:48 ------ | 0:35 - 0:51 ------ | 0:38 - 0:59 ------
Metropolis ----- 0:54 - 0:50 - 1:32 | 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53 | 1:12 - 1:30 - 2:33
Wing Fortress -- x:xx ------------- | 1:47-------------- | 1:56 -------------
Death Egg ------ x:xx ------------- | 0:48-------------- | 0:49 -------------
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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To confirm what everybody else has been saying, yes, this is my NES emulator.
A side note: moving the mouse around during Zapper game movie playback should NOT cause desynchs, since the "gun position" is determined from the movie file, NOT from the actual mouse position (during recording and normal gameplay, the mouse position is sampled exactly once per frame) - it just moves the mouse around to follow the gun, so you can see where it's aiming.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Impossible - several enemies (atleast 3 or 4) are too low to reach unless you do a full power spindash off the plane, in which case you fall down and die immediately afterwards.
Update: as I expected, my alternate Metropolis Zone boss technique was significantly faster - 10 seconds in my initial trial (not recorded). Unfortunately, getting it perfect (and likely even faster) is going to take quite a while...
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Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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bobxp wrote:
What about jumping before getting to the cylinder?
If I jump, I lose my spindash speed, and running speed alone is NOT enough to make it from the top of the cylinder to the ledge. It's not even possible to jump from the BOTTOM of the cylinder, since it severely reduces your jump height
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Believe it or not, I actually tried that, but at every spot in Emerald Hill Zone where I was going through a loop, I was at Super-Shoe speed, so doing the jump actually slowed me down.
[edit] yeah, Emerald Hill Zone [/edit]
As for that 'cylinder' before the zip tube in Metropolis 3, my exit point is determined by my speed, but if I slow down partway through, I won't have enough horizontal speed to make it to the ledge. The other problem is that right afterwards I need to wait for a steam spring.
Update: just redid the end of Metropolis 3. By dismounting from the bolt earlier, I gained around 24 frames, but this caused the boss battle to desynch at/after the 4th hit. Interestingly enough, when redoing the rest of the boss battle, I was able to get Tails to land EVERY hit against Robotnik (except popping the balloons), and managed to hit the switch 3 frames faster, for a total gain of 27 frames. In the event that my alternate boss battle technique (drag him down to the bottom, then bounce on him and pop the balloons as quickly as possible so he doesn't go back to the top) fails, I'll certainly be happy with this.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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Posts: 250
My 'clean' run through Metropolis 3 is now online, finishing a total of 10 seconds faster than my initial attempt. However, I may yet be able to speed up the boss fight by letting him come all the way to the bottom and then bursting the balloons as early as possible; if this works, I may be able to gain even more time.
[edit] Heh, just noticed a speedup; fortunately, it's *right* at the end of the level (going up the last bolt, could have slowed down and turned around a bit earlier to get into the zip tube earlier) - I'll fix it when I retry the boss.
Current status:
---------------- Current run ------ | Previous run ----- | TSC Records ------
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36 ------ | 0:19 - 0:37 ------ | 0:20 - 0:38 ------
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51 ------ | 0:20 - 1:04 ------ | 0:22 - 0:53 ------
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38 ------ | 0:24 - 0:44 ------ | 0:24 - 0:43 ------
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55 ------ | 0:26 - 1:01 ------ | 0:34 - 1:05 ------
Hill Top ------- 0:39 - 0:48 ------ | 0:45 - 1:00 ------ | 0:48 - 1:03 ------
Mystic Cave ---- 0:28 - 0:37 ------ | 0:35 - 0:41 ------ | 0:40 - 0:49 ------
Oil Ocean ------ 0:26 - 0:48 ------ | 0:35 - 0:51 ------ | 0:38 - 0:59 ------
Metropolis ----- 0:54 - 0:50 - 1:43 | 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53 | 1:12 - 1:30 - 2:33
Wing Fortress -- x:xx ------------- | 1:47-------------- | 1:56 -------------
Death Egg ------ x:xx ------------- | 0:48-------------- | 0:49 -------------
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User, Published Author, Former player
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During my first attempt at Metropolis 3 (which I discarded), I've run into several problems:
1. I managed to go up the first bolt so quickly that I had a significantly long delay at the top, waiting for one of those slowly rotating platforms to be low enough to jump onto (and then another long delay while I wait for it to move high enough so I can jump onto the ledge above).
2. After some testing, it appears to NOT be possible to hit Robotnik twice in a row - he flashes longer than usual (1 full second, twice as long as in other zones) and the spheres flying around him remain deadly the entire time.
The good news is that the level will be atleast 3-5 seconds faster than it was before, but it will still have some unavoidable waits in it.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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bobxp wrote:
SprintGod wrote:
Still too slow. 1 rerecord per 2.5 seconds isn't enough for almost any game, never mind something as awkward as Sonic.
I DID read the FAQ before I started. Rerecord count doesn't say how many times per second a savestate was loaded. It says how many times you pressed F8 in the whole run.
Your run is 11 minutes long and used 252 rerecords (1 per 157 frames, or 2.6 seconds). By comparison, my Sonic 2 run is currently 15 minutes long and uses over 18,000 rerecords (1 per 3 frames, or 0.05 seconds), and Sprint's Sonic 3&K run was around 49:30 and used nearly 120,000 rerecords (1 per 1.5 frames, or 0.025 seconds). If you do the math, you should have at least 2,000-4,000 rerecords this far into the game (since the special stages require a lot less precision).
The Sonic series has a physics engine that is significantly more complex than most other games of its time. An obscene amount of planning and experimentation is absolutely necessary for a decent result, and it is apparent that you have done nowhere near enough of either.
You are correct, but please bear in mind that as I am trying something new (ie. special stages) I cannot "copy" all of the record run - different routes must be taken (not very apparent in the first two zones which actually matter, but enough) and it distorts timed things.
Speaking of your routes, is there any reason why you collected the flame shield at the end of Act 1? It's totally unnecessary for beating the boss (just insta-shield when you hit the flames to avoid taking damage), and you immediately replace it with the bubble shield after the boss dies, anyways.
And please remember that while I do want it to be fast, I am not too bothered about things such as jumping one frame too late, etc.
It's very apparent that you were not using frame advance, something that's practically required for a game like this. Skidding to a stop should be timed to the exact frame necessary (pull back until you start sliding backwards but BEFORE you turn around, then hit forward for 1 frame and back for 1 frame and you're stopped), and a full-power spindash should take exactly 9 frames to perform - 1 frame to crouch (which can often be done during the very last frame of slowing down), 6 frames to charge up (A, B, C, A, B, C), and 1 frame to let go of the controls (plus another frame if you want to jump immediately). During playback, these spindashes should sound like a single continuous high-pitched buzzing sound.
Jumping one frame late isn't that bad, since most people won't notice it unless they watch the movie in frame advance AND are intimately familiar with the game, but consistently wasting 5-10 frames on common moves (like spindashes) is inexcusable and will add up to minutes of wasted time over the course of the entire run.
Also, perfects are useless. The special stages are long and boring enough already without wasting time on such an easy, tedious, and entirely unimpressive task.
Again, in reference to the FAQ, it gave an example of an objective being "collect all items". This would be slower than just completing the game, right? Well, my objective is all perfects on special stages, not just to use Super Sonic in all the levels for speed's sake.
Also, I want to point out one thing. Obviously a 50000-point bonus from a <1 minute completed level takes longer than a 10000-point bonus from a >=1 minute completed. So it would make sense to me to not finish levels on 0:59.
You're being very inconsistent here - if you're concerned about the end of level time bonuses (50K points for <1 minute, 10K points for >= 1 minute), then why on earth are you getting PERFECTs in the special stages, something which does nothing but waste time (extra delays from running around to pick up rings, and an extra 50K point bonus at the end)?
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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bobxp wrote:
Do what you can in order to complete the game as fast as possible, while still maintaining those stupid/funny/silly looking stuff that makes people smile for a while.
That's what I'm trying to do. Looking up at the bosses is a good un-timewasting way to do this... and to the author of the Sonic 2 speedrun, pressing Up 30 times a second is NOT.
When you've got some high quality timeattack material to present, then you can start criticizing what other people do in their runs. Until then, keep your little 'observations' to yourself.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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* The slowdown at the beginning is due to object overflow, and I don't know any way to avoid it.
* Every time I go up a 'spring shaft' (i.e. the yellow bumpers), my L/R controls lock solid for 20 frames once I land. I can still jump and roll, but I can't speed up or slow down while I'm on the ground (I can jump and change directions midair, but this simply postpones the delay until I land again).
* If I hold Jump while bouncing up a spring shaft, they bounce me considerably faster than normal running speed, which is especially good if I can get them to throw me into the ceiling.
* On those platform-belts, I cannot jump up to the next one when I'm on the side that's moving up - I either have to wait or climb up the other side (which is generally faster).
* At the final spindash, I hold Left as long as possible so I'm standing still the instant the 'control lock' wears off. In a short test, it appears that landing as far right as possible (followed by 20 frames of unavoidable running, a skid, and a spindash) is 5 frames faster. That alone was enough to get my time down to 0:51, so other improvements may be able to get me down even further.
This was only my initial trial attempt at this level, and I'm sure I'll be able to get it a few seconds faster before I move on to Metropolis 3.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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English: 100% Beginner, 86% Intermediate, 93% Advanced, 66% Expert (considering English is my main language, I should have gotten a much higher 'Expert' score)
Google: didn't try
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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* the crab at 13:11 - it's not possible to make it past him from the steam spring alone, so I land as close as possible and then 1-point jump over him. Even if I land on the left, I cannot spindash through him or I will immediately get hit. Getting hit and then spindashing straight through him only saves about 4 frames.
* jumping down to the yellow spring - yeah, the platforms are keyed to the level timer, and I arrive too early to squeeze past the right platform like I did before.
* 13:51 - Doing a full-power jump at the far left edge of the platform would cause me to hit the button 1 frame later than if I simply run off the edge - weaker jumps are even slower.
* 13:57 - In my initial retry, I *did* spindash here, only to find out that it did not work (I rolled off the ledge and straight into the springs) and ended up jumping and re-spindashing, which was about 11 frames slower.
One other optimization I found is at ~13:20, where landing/jumping at a different spot on the slope will get me moving forward slightly faster, but it only speeds me up by 2 or 3 frames. A similar jump at 13:25 got a significantly larger boost, but I was unable to reproduce this at 13:20, most likely due to my vertical velocity (tried every horizontal position possible, and none of them worked).
Overall, only 6-7 frames could be gained from this; unless someone can find some significant speed boosts, I'll leave these optimizations to the next speedrunner who attempts this game (even if that turns out to be me).
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Found and fixed one minor slowdown - by lowering the first nut to the floor (so Tails lands on it earlier) and optimizing my dismount (so both Sonic and Tails land on the left side of the next nut), I was able to shave off 16 frames.
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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Since nobody pointed out any problems in Oil Ocean 2 (and I didn't notice any myself), I've proceeded to Metropolis 1. Frame advance REALLY helped here, allowing me to gain an entire 7 seconds on my previous time, even though one spot took slightly longer than before (right after the 3 gates in a row, where I jump between some platforms and land on the edge of a spring - before, I was able to squeeze past the right platform and land right on the ledge to spindash).
Given how much I improved this level, Metropolis 2 and 3 will most likely be a LOT faster than before.
Current status:
---------------- Current run ------ | Previous run ----- | TSC Records ------
Emerald Hill --- 0:18 - 0:36 ------ | 0:19 - 0:37 ------ | 0:20 - 0:38 ------
Chemical Plant - 0:17 - 0:51 ------ | 0:20 - 1:04 ------ | 0:22 - 0:53 ------
Aquatic Ruin --- 0:19 - 0:38 ------ | 0:24 - 0:44 ------ | 0:24 - 0:43 ------
Casino Night --- 0:25 - 0:55 ------ | 0:26 - 1:01 ------ | 0:34 - 1:05 ------
Hill Top ------- 0:39 - 0:48 ------ | 0:45 - 1:00 ------ | 0:48 - 1:03 ------
Mystic Cave ---- 0:28 - 0:37 ------ | 0:35 - 0:41 ------ | 0:40 - 0:49 ------
Oil Ocean ------ 0:26 - 0:48 ------ | 0:35 - 0:51 ------ | 0:38 - 0:59 ------
Metropolis ----- 0:54 - x:xx - x:xx | 1:01 - 1:00 - 1:53 | 1:12 - 1:30 - 2:33
Wing Fortress -- x:xx ------------- | 1:47-------------- | 1:56 -------------
Death Egg ------ x:xx ------------- | 0:48-------------- | 0:49 -------------
* Quietust, QMT Productions
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