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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
And now let's get into the main issue this goes into. The submission's feedback has been mostly positive, just not *overwelming* positive like you would see on most Pokemon movies. Say this means that this movie is not eligible for Moons (you could argue both ways imo, but let's look into this scenario). If it's not, then it would have to be rejected since the save glitch branch completes the game faster than the Coin Case branch.
Then, I guess you into why this submission was not overwhelmingly positive. I haven't seen any actual specifics into why this is less entertaining than MrWint's movie. I believe it's more people do not care as much for Coin Case TASes nowadays (they were popping up in 2014, this is 2020). So, say this is the case, wouldn't that mean MrWint's Coin Case should be de-Mooned? If so, then it would be forced into the save glitch's obsoletion chain, due to Vault only having the fastest completion, and save glitch being faster than the Coin Case (I guess I semi-win this way since my Crystal save glitch submission obsoletes MrWint's Coin Case lol).
The obsoletion chain for Gen2 ACE (pardon the generalization) is a bit wonky: The published CCG originally obsoleted Gold save glitch, but when Crystal save glitch came along, the obsoletion chain was reworked to keep CCG alive, and have Crystal save glitch obsolete Gold... So, technically, there are two opposite precedents revolving around the same category.
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There have been a few notable non-Pokemon instances of faster, yet much less entertaining glitches directly obsoleting far more entertaining, but slower glitches. So, it could be a case where audience feedback on CCG doesn't matter at all because Crystal save glitch is going to obsolete it anyway just on the basis of being a faster game end glitch (since at one point we judged CCG as being able to obsolete save glitch)... But again, we already passed up the chance to do exactly that when the first Crystal save glitch run was submitted.
It's a really weird (coin) case, I think. There's more precedence towards Crystal save glitch being the primary glitched run (CCG originally obsoleting the 54 minute save glitch run, plus the SMB3 and Chrono Trigger cases), and so I'm tempted to think that way by default, but the simple fact that CCG was intentionally kept alive and reclassified as a separate category to save glitch makes it difficult to be absolutely certain one way or the other.
This really needs more feedback, especially with the Crystal improvement also on the workbench, as I don't think either run can be properly judged until we reach a definite conclusion.
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I don't see a dog anywhere in that run so it doesn't count as basketball to me. Basketball is only basketball when there is a dog. Please update your rules, James Naismith. Thanks in advance.
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Golf bowling. Bowlgolf. Bowlfing. I see.
My initial reaction was based on a misremembering of the rules, so I went and looked them up. Relevant rules info from this page:
If a run consists of doing a trivial strategy, made only nontrivial by having to do it over the course of several rounds, it will still be judged as trivial. For example, bowling games where the player gets a strike with ten pins every time.
Nester's Challenge Mode (the exact same thing as this for anyone who doesn't want to watch another grueling minute of bowling) was deemed acceptable when the rules on sports games were created, evidenced by the thread created at the time.
Sports games in the Vault are restricted to one game per series per platform, unless game-play is significantly different. For example, PGA Tour Golf III on the Sega Genesis may obsolete PGA Tour Golf II on the Sega Genesis.
This is the one I was misremembering. I initially thought we'd have to judge which is the superior TAS out of this and Nester since they're the exact same concept, but since they're both different series and different platforms, the rules don't say they can't exist side by side. They also don't say a dog can't play basketball, but we don't even have any published basketball runs to my knowledge.
Anyway, voting Meh. I like it more than Nester, it's more watchable due to it not being on VirtualBoy... And the girl is pretty cute, though.
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There's that too, yeah. I was just strictly comparing this run to the Sonic+Tails any% since they're the easiest to directly compare. I had the idea to compare to some of the other published runs, but wanted to wait for some feedback/explanations/corrections first. With the main difference just being down to Hydrocity 1, I might as well do it now.
Solo Tails is able to get the zip in Hydrocity 1 that this run can't do (not technically important compared to this run, but stating it regardless). Knuckles can't get this zip and has to play the stage normally, but Knuckles is able to use a different route through the first half of the level. The Knuckles and solo Sonic routes do eventually converge at that halfway point and look identical up through to the end, though. Sonic 100% also plays Hydrocity 1 with the exact same restriction as this run, and the bonus stage is at the very end of the level, meaning an optimized run in 100% would be the exact same nearly the entire way through, except it spindashes left instead of right at the very end.
Painful as it is to say this, without Hydrocity 1 or Hidden Palace, this run officially doesn't have any strictly unique content as far as I'm aware. Note that I mean strictly unique content as routing/strategies that are unique to this specific run. The new tech, awesome as it is, doesn't count as unique as it's applicable to other runs, namely the already published solo Sonic 100% and S+T runs. Different setups to hit the same full-level zips also don't count, as that is technically just suboptimal strategy (assuming the optimal strategy is using Tails to clip, of course).
I'd still love to hear feedback from Kaan or anyone else with more technical Sonic knowledge in case my analysis is wrong in any way.
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Pikachu wrote:
This cannot be rejected because "too many branches", there's already 3 Sonic ring attacks and an Amy Rose hack submissions, these are just made up challenges & an unofficial hack, unlike this Sonic solo.
To delay or reject for this reason would be unfair to the author. No more sonic ring attacks or hacks should be accepted anymore imo.
There are a number of problems with this reasoning.
1. One of the ring attack TASes is for Sonic 2. It's unfair to say there are three of them without specifying that one of them isn't even for this specific game.
2. Hacks are published based on audience reception, if one makes it through then it deserves a spot on the site based on that alone. Amy is sitting very comfortably in Moons right now, meaning that even after all this time, people are generally still positive about it, and with an improvement run in progress I can't see that changing at all.
3. Consider that there's already a solo Sonic run that shows off more of the game, and consider that the any% branch is already technically playing as Sonic. Optimization level/new tech aside, what does this run have that those runs don't?
My take on separate branches is that they need variety to warrant publication. Sonic characters all tend to play fairly similarly, just with each of them having one or two unique movement abilities that, in my opinion, still don't make them varied enough to warrant every single one having distinct any% and 100% categories published. I can understand only having 100% for every character, and I even support that, as more run logically translates to more variety, giving each individual character more of a chance to show off how different they are.
This brings me back to the ring attack runs. Ring attack runs, to me, fill that gap of being varied really nicely (though I do think having 2 runs with the same character for 1 game is a bit much) (EDIT: disregard this, misread categories while tired, sorry!). They're basically full-game exhibitions, the strategies are super unique, they're constantly moving around and doing interesting things, and it never gets boring because each stage is laid out completely differently so there's always innovation in how they're handled. I feel like I just reworded the same thing four times. No wonder I was always great at essays!
It's not a matter of being unfair to the author, either. It's just a natural process of how the site handles things in its current state. Even if the run gets rejected, there's always a chance that a rule/site structure change down the line could see it come back and be published. It's happened before. It just happened very recently, in fact. It could easily happen again with a high quality run like this.
Honest question: If ring attack runs are arbitrary to you, why is this run not arbitrary? Is there significant enough of a difference for it? Is a general viewer unfamiliar with Sonic TASing going to get something noticeable out of it that the 100% run or the normal Sonic+Tails runs wouldn't otherwise give them? I'd like to see someone with more intimate Sonic knowledge (NOT THAT KIND) chime in on things like that.
NON-EDIT EDIT: Everything above this was written yesterday while lacking sleep, so sorry if it sounds weird. The following should technically be a separate post, but double posting is bad.
I got curious about similarities and just watched this run and the Sonic+Tails run simultaneously, level by level, comparing them. My verdict is that an optimized any% run would be virtually identical to this one, save for the following stages:
ANGEL ISLAND 1: Tails is able to move Sonic during the opening cutscene. This is a minor difference at best, the levels otherwise looked 100% similar except for the new tech in this run.
HYDROCITY 1: The published any% run is able to use Tails to perform a full level zip. Solo Sonic can't do this. This is the biggest difference between the two runs.
LAUNCH BASE 2: Solo Sonic seems to be unable to do a boss/cutscene skip that any% is able to perform.
MUSHROOM HILL 1/2: Tails can break the victory cutscene in Act 1, though the new tech in solo Sonic to go through Act 2 might warrant that obsolete anyway: Rough time estimates on the encodes: This run spends about 30 seconds in MH2 (starting from the end of the MH1 victory cutscene), while the published S+T run spends about 40 seconds in it (starting from using Tails to break the MH1 victory cutscene), both ending at the very first hit on Eggman. I'm assuming that an optimized S+T run would break the cutscene and activate that new zip immediately, following the same general route, though I'm not familiar enough with Sonic TASing to know whether or not that's actually the case.
HIDDEN PALACE: Tails is able to quick kill Knuckles and skip the rest of the level afterward.
DEATH EGG 1: That weird hit-the-targets thing in the middle of the level is about 3 IGT seconds faster with Tails, otherwise it seems like both runs would be the same.
Here's the brief notes I took while watching. They're not great, but I'm including them for posterity. Keep in mind I'm not a Sonic TAS expert so my untrained eye might be wrong about things. I'd gladly appreciate corrections to anything I'm wrong about!
As it stands, I don't really see these as significant enough differences to warrant a solo Sonic any% publication. Hydrocity 1 is the only major gameplay difference, as solo Sonic actually has to navigate through the whole level (and it's quite entertaining, in fact). Everything else is a boss/cutscene/uninteresting gameplay skip.
Don't get me wrong, the new tech on display in this run is amazing, it's incredibly well made and optimized and super entertaining to watch, but apart from a single stage with different gameplay, an optimized S+T any% run would serve the exact same purpose as this run. This just feels like an S+T run that arbitrarily doesn't use Tails. It's a fantastic run, but I don't think it deserves a new branch.
...But holy hell am I excited to see an S+T any% improvement with all this new tech.
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Spikestuff wrote:
Slower than this:
[snipped]
Seeing DMTM's run makes the hack look less publishable to me. The playaround stuff in GHZ2 where just walking down slopes put Vector into the ground told me that apart from the fact that you can literally just zip anytime, there's more strange, unpolished-looking things that don't do the hack any justice. I could be wrong about that, though.
Zipping in Sonic is only entertaining with the knowledge that it requires setup and specific locations, and can't always be done. When it's happening in every single stage from the very beginning, it just gets repetitive, and not the short and fun (IMO) kind of repetitive where you could theoretically sit there open-mouthed at how ridiculous it is for it to be happening at all.
At this point, "XXXXX in Sonic 1" hacks should really only be considered if they offer significantly different gameplay from each other. We already have Knuckles and Tails runs, any character past that really has to be more than just "spindash + some method of flight". Ideally, it'd be a character that can't zip/spindash/fly at all, and has to find new and more creative ways to move around that doesn't just look like the current no-zips run, but given how many modifiers I just had to use, it's not looking good for these kinds of hacks (for Sonic 1 specifically) in terms of being publishable alongside the others.
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WarHippy wrote:
I am very much against allowing this cheat for several reasons. First, and foremost, it is used purely for entertainment purposes. All this does is circumvent the 'Bad Game Choice' tag. There are many games that just aren't interesting as a TAS. This doesn't feel like an exception.
Every currently published Fire Emblem run is sitting in Moons as of this post. They usually end up being received rather well by the audience upon submission. Admittedly, there's the usual entertainment rating dropoff post-publication, but I'd hardly call that an example of bad game choice.
Secondly, I think this would set a bad precedent for allowing codes that make a game easier... (i.e. almost every cheat code ever made). We truly do not need people to tag TAS's as cheating any more so than usual.
There's already precedent for using codes to access hidden difficulties, this just happens to be the first time I can think of where it's being used to access an easier one. I think there's a difference between "allowing codes that make the game easier" and "allowing codes to access hidden difficulties", we just have to deal with this case being in the middle of that particular Venn diagram. I doubt it'd set a precedent for "WE ALLOW ALL CHEATS NOW", but I understand why it's a weird edge case due to the nature of it.
Third, being able to use a code in this fashion cuts motivation for finding creative solutions to the game's natural barriers.
This, I absolutely agree with, though. This comment in particular worries me:
lapogne36 wrote:
In Thracia 776, the only difference between the two modes is the amount of Exp you get from battle (capped at 100 in both case), which for a TAS can be translated as less grind because you need to have a high movement Leif.
Bold emphasis mine. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, as it implies that having a high-movement Leif is the best possible strategy, and yet without any further justification, it also implies that this is the only strategy that was looked into. Exactly how important is it to have a high-movement Leif? Is it a matter of "the game is otherwise impossible", or "this particular strategy won't work without it"? If it's the latter, is this absolutely the fastest strategy for any difficulty? Would a Normal run just include extra grinding to get to the exact same point it would be at in this run, or would there be an alternate strategy that Normal uses? I'd like to know this from a TAS perspective specifically, as I'm assuming it's going to be a lot different from the RTAs on Normal that are out there.
EDIT:
Leif: The lord of the game, he must reach the end of every map to Seize/Escape. Since you can't really warp him in Escape Maps (or else you would lose the warper and the Warp Staff), it is important for him to get a high mobility through his 3% MOV growth.
Reread the submission text and caught this after making my post. Can this be elaborated on a bit more? Is it specifically "high-movement Leif makes these maps faster because Leif gets to the end faster", or is it something more along the lines of "high-movement Leif is the only way to survive in these maps"?
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I gave it a Meh. Really lovely improvement, but the game's still a bit lacking in excitement. It was kind of entertaining to watch the catches happening so quickly (especially after rewatching the previous runs to see how much they changed), but to me the most entertaining part wasn't even part of the run itself. It was seeing that it was inspired by a new glitch, only for the new improvements to make it so the glitch never had to be used.
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This is an interesting case. Clearly, this is fastest completion, meaning it's theoretically Vault-eligible, meaning that a run on the Normal difficulty wouldn't be Vault-eligible since it's much slower, meaning the Normal run would have to make it to Moons to be site-acceptable, which might not be the case if extra grinding is required as that would make it less entertaining of a watch. RTAs on Normal look to be around the 2 hour mark. A TAS would still be shorter by a wide margin, of course, but it still seems like it'd be a pretty significant time increase assuming grinding is in fact necessary.
If that's the case, this run follows the guidelines on difficulty choice by choosing the difficulty that makes for the least repetitive, most interesting run, though I fully admit I'm biased because I did kiiiiinda write that section in the first place*. However, in the case that a full run on the harder difficulty can be completed without grinding, then I think that would make for the more interesting/entertaining run. Even if battles are slower, there'd be more entertainment value in watching clearly underleveled characters still tearing their way through maps.
*With some editing by Nach to make it sound better, of course.
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Great run of what looks like a fun little game... If it wasn't for the sounds, I'd have enjoyed watching it a lot more, though. Voted Meh. Definitely deserves a place on the site, but the sound effects make it a bit of a hard watch.
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Link to videoUser movie #64693087523195969
202 frames ahead of goofydylan's WIP, 621 frames ahead of the published run (will start getting accurate framecounts once I start needing to compare to that run). ~120 frames of lag management, ~80 frames of gameplay.
Rough game. Need sleep. May have nightmare about Elm Street.
EDIT: Made it up to where goofydylan's WIP ends with a total of 292 frames saved over it (likely not accurate since his WIP ends in the middle of a section), and 724 frames saved over the published run. Next WIP will likely come when I enter the Junkyard.
I did a little math while working out framecounts in the published run (since that's all I have to compare to, now) and I'm really confident that sub-15 is possible with refined movement and the boss skips. The boss skips alone amount to about 30 seconds of saves. I'm about a fifth of the way through with 12 seconds saved so far (on track for roughly 60 seconds of improvement), and there's a lot of potential for movement optimization starting in the Junkyard. I've got an incredibly lofty goal of sub-14:30 (making it faster than Randil's now-obsoleted 1p run). I don't think I'll make it barring some big new improvement, but it'd be amazing, huh?
EDIT: Welp, forgot to post a WIP and I'm past the Junkyard. In Cemetary right now. Hit the 20 second mark of improvements. Sub-14:30 is looking much less likely as of right now, but the published run's movement in these later stages is pretty weak, so assuming THESE movement improvements don't get mostly cancelled out by lag it could still happen. Current estimate for final time is sitting around 14:50.
Will ACTUALLY post a new WIP and encode after Cemetary.
EDIT: oops i finished and submitted it
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There was a point about 10 warps in where I realized "Wow, this is going to be the entire run" and that actually made it more entertaining for me. I love it when complex games are reduced to leisurely strolls like this. Voted Yes, though I admit it's due to my familiarity with the game and me just finding two and a half minutes of warping way too funny.
The double kill at the end is also incredibly good.
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User movie #64645590279403669
"I haven't touched TAS tools in over three years. How should I ease myself back into it?" - Literally me before I apparently lost my mind and took on the 4 player run.
First house. 46 frames ahead of goofydylan8's WIP, 175 frames ahead of the published run. About half of the improvement is lag reduction, and the other half is just entering the house quicker. I think there's one whole frame of gameplay improvement mixed in there as well.
EDIT: Encode.
Link to video
EDIT2: Disregard, hecked up. Really hecked this one. Fricked it, even. Forgot house order had to be manipulated.
EDIT3: Disregard that disregard. Manipulating is painless, costs no time, and doesn't desync anything. Man, it's almost like I haven't done this in years or something!
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Oh, interesting! Thanks for letting me know! Quoting and emphasizing the relevant info for anyone else interested:
Another important rule change was the introduction of a better definition of triviality. We want to restrict triviality on a game-by-game basis, depending on if a game can or not produce TASes that aren't too easy to make or to match in RTA. This basically means that even if a new submission results easy to make or to match in RTA, it will be accepted anyway if that game was previously known to feature at least one TASing record that wasn't trivial to match in new TASing attempts, with the tech knowledge available at that time. Please note that this new rule is referring to edge cases like GB The Adventures of Pinocchio, which isn't exactly the case for this submission, as it required some extensive research in order be made, as well as appreciable efforts in order to be matched by real-time attempts.
Lastly, I want to note that the requirement of being "distinguishable from the best real-time speedruns" was removed from Vault and implemented to Moons and Stars tiers.
I think that's a great change. It reduces subjectivity and broadens the options for what's acceptable on the site, and this run fits under it pretty nicely in my opinion.
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link_7777 wrote:
GJTASer2018 wrote:
The previous submission of this game was rejected for triviality, and I don't understand how this is supposed to improve anything. Voting No.
It is 3 frames faster, so clearly there is something non-trivial.
I can weigh in on my decision a little bit.
My usage of trivial didn't refer to the game's ability to be improved, it referred to the game itself. Even with a three frame improvement, nearly the entire running time is still menus with one 5 second section of shooting at the end. Over 99% of this run cannot be improved by virtue of it being all menuing, and if the last submission's comments are any indication, it would be 100% identical in an RTA run. It didn't quite feel right to me to publish a game where only <1% has any competition, especially when the shooting section doesn't look noticeably tool-assisted.
I do think it deserves a second look from a different eye, though. Game choice was always one of those things that felt a little too subjective for a single person to decide.
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It's been a rough few years, but I think I'm ready to shoulder-bash this door off the hinges.
I stepped away because I knew my behavior was completely out of hand and that I stuck around a lot longer than I should have the first time around, and I spent pretty much this entire break working on getting my life in order and improving myself. I'm in a much better place mentally, now. I fixed my relationship with my family, I made peace with real life friends I hurt, and now I'm here, back in a community I love, ready to try again. It's good to be back, and I'm looking forward to contributing again.
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This'll fucking teach me to check in this garbage-ass site "one last time".
What's the fucking point of setting up rules and bans if you're not going to fucking enforce them? You can't just decide "I'll make an exception this one time because I like it". You've already done it way too many times before, like how many times you've let Felipe come back despite literally permabanning him twice and how long you let Scepheo remain a Judge despite the fact that he was a fucking flake and literally hadn't judged a run for damn near a year by the time you decided it was time to fire him (and that's not counting that he's a fucking RedPill misogynist) and how long you've let Warp remain on the site despite the fact that literally everybody fucking hates him because he's a deplorable human being WHO JUST FUCKING HAAAAATES WOMEN, and most importantly how much fucking bias you've given to Hetfield, to the point where I get in a small altercation with him that I fucking ended and cleaned up while he was still attacking me and I'm the only one who gets punished over it. Just because Hetfield makes the same fucking Mega Man run over and over and fucking over.
This is why you're not fit to admin, Moth. This is why you're not fucking fit to have any power on the site. Nothing you do is unbiased, not even fucking judging. Half the runs you take are to bolster your rejection count because you're so fucking obsessed with the idea that you "run a tight ship" even though most of the time you're sitting back letting people you like do whatever the fuck they want. Do what I'm doing and fuck off from the site forever before it turns into an even bigger pile of shit than it already is, except unlike me you're the one who's actually turning it into that pile of shit. I know you love Trump and want to suck all the fake tan off his dick, but that doesn't mean you should keep fucking the site up like he's fucking up the US.
Regardless of whether or not you make the right decision, and let's face it of course you're not going to make the right decision because you never fucking do, this is the last goddamn time I'm ever thinking about this shithole, this absolute fucking mountain of stress and anxiety that I thought I loved until I realized I was working under a fucking dictator who hated the fact that I did my job way better than he ever did his. Have fun disobeying the precedents you set in fucking stone by giving this TAS the Star it doesn't deserve.
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Nach wrote:
The rule that is clearest was cited. The rule clarifies other rules as applicable to the case at hand and existing policy.
It's not unfair because we've rejected/cancelled similar runs in the past. Even if not, we're free to institute new rules as new cases demand them.
I literally only asked for clarification on what I initially thought was a completely unfair decision. The way I saw it was that the staff literally added a rule and then rejected a run minutes later for not following it, which came off as unfair to me. Once I understood that this was not the case, I asked for that to be made clearer in the judgement message. I should have made that clearer, I guess.
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