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This submission's on a very thin line between Vault and Moon in terms of feedback and voting. With the improvements over the 2p run being made much more apparent, how do people feel about tiering? Is it entertaining enough to stand alongside the 2p run in Moons?
EDIT: If this run is accepted, it won't obsolete the 2p run. If it goes to Moons, it will remain there as a separate category. If it goes to Vault as a fastest any%, then an optimized 2p run may obsolete it if the gameplay is faster. Apologies for the confusion, assuming there was any.
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grassini wrote:
i'm just asking if in the judging process the person will actually look at the movie and watch it.
That is literally our job.
EDIT: Whoever judges the new run will likely cross-reference this one, although it will likely not be a huge factor in determining the optimization of the new run due to differences between versions. We will judge the new run as fairly as any other run on its own merits.
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Literally that, yeah. Clearly it's an improvement over the rejected submission, and that's great, but there's no way to know how valid it is until we see an updated (U) version run. The movie in its current form actually breaks the rules of the site and cannot be accepted, so leaving it on the queue will do nothing but lead to rejection down the road and possibly attract further drama.
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grassini wrote:
i don't know how to hex edit,i've tried a few times already,is there any difference between rejecting and canceling a movie?
Rejecting has to be done by a Judge after 3 days of the submission being on the workbench. Cancelling can be done by the author for any reason. Usually cancellation is the wiser option, as too many outright rejections can lead to a temporary/permanent removal of your submission privileges.
Just edit the submission text and set it to cancelled if you want, it should be the only option you have other than "new".
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All that being said, we still can't accept this run, so you can either accept that you made a mistake and cancel the submission, or you can keep arguing and just wait for the inevitable rejection, further risking a ban if you keep up the toxic behavior.
Why not try seeing if you can port this exact run to the (U) version? Perhaps if you account for the extra 3 seconds of intro but keep the rest of the input the same, it'll still sync just fine... I mean I doubt it would due to luck manipulation, but it's always worth a shot.
EDIT: I see the issue. From the WIPs, it seemed like you were working off your original (U) version run, which would have had the NTSC flag tripped by default, and switching to the (E) version kept the flag triggered, making it run at 60fps. Absolutely an honest mistake if you weren't aware of the differences between (U) and (E)... Although if you'd read the Movie Rules about version choice...
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nrg_zam wrote:
I was curious to what extent the additional bonus thing for 2p actually matters, so I checked out each run up through level 2, looks like theres a ~104f difference. So across 48 stages, that's about 1:23. Less than I was expecting, I thought the additional point tallies would be a greater proportion of the overall time saved. Of course, this is assuming that bonus tally isn't incredibly variable, but since you're saving only 1 person in every stage, it might be a safe assumption to make? Don't know if they're worth more points later on or something.
Jumping to a random level in both encodes (level 10, to be specific), the difference there appears to be around 4-5 seconds, as the fadeout happens much earlier in the 1p version even without counting the extra victims saved bonus, so the time saved by removing those screens is much higher, possibly even 4+ minutes depending on how variable it is. However, this is still less than the total length of improvements, and that's also not counting the fact that quite a few levels would still be slower in the 1p run simple due to being unable to multitask, so there must be some serious improvements/differences somewhere in the run.
I'll look into this further when I get around to judging it. Depending on the entertainment level, there could be a situation where this run is accepted to Vault as an any% and MechChicken's run remains in Moons as a separate "2 player" branch, but don't quote me on that being exactly the case. It's just my personal speculation on what my future decision could be.
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Considering that the current ZAMN run is in Moons, this run cannot actually obsolete it based on speed alone. That's not to mention that the biggest improvement seems to come from the removal of the extra bonus screen, and I doubt 1-player actually provides an improvement to the actual gameplay (I wouldn't be surprised if gameplay time is lost in every level), so we wouldn't be able to accept this run as an improvement regardless.
EDIT: That Snow Bros run was originally accepted alongside the 2 player run, it was changed to an obsoletion late last year. So it seems like our current ruleset doesn't allow us to have both 1p any% and 2p any% published alongside each other in Vault.
We may have to reject this run if it doesn't make it to Moons in that case...
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It looks like the NTSC flag was triggered in the movie file, making the game run at 60fps. This IS technically an improvement over the previous run, but we can't allow PAL games running at 60fps as it's technically cheating. That's not an accusation of cheating, I'm sure it was either an accident or a misunderstanding, but we have to treat it as an unfair advantage to run a 50fps game in 60fps as it runs faster than normal that way.
I would advise you to cancel this run and redo it on the (U) or (J) version (and maybe the most recent version of lsnes while you're at it), and I personally apologize for not bringing this to your attention sooner. I had intended to, I must've written a post then forgotten to actually post it.
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The8bitbeast wrote:
I see my TAS to be closer to a game end glitch while Angerfist's omits this. The only difference between my TAS and a warp to final boss TAS is the 15 minute grind. Perhaps we should define 100% to be all bosses, call Angerfist's TAS 100% and be done with it.
This is what should have been argued this whole time, differentiating the two categories in such a way that considers them both to be publishable no matter what. I don't have nearly as many qualms about this solution, though it would be nice to have a completely stable definition of what 100% is for this game before we would consider it. The huge problem that arose from the previous argument was that both runs were being treated as any%, which we obviously can't have published alongside each other. Had this been the argument the whole time, I'm absolutely positive it would have been the accepted solution. Just from the evidence presented at the time, however, I fully support GoddessMaria's judgement decision and I think the harsh criticism of it is unfair.
If you and AngerFist and/or anyone else who's familiar with the game can present a detailed case for why the obsoleted run should be considered 100%, or better yet bring the RTA community's definition of 100% over here, then we'll absolutely take a second look at it, but as long as both runs are being treated as any% then there's nothing we can do to keep both runs published.
I think that emphasis on game choice should be removed from the judging criteria. It's good to have runs of well known games, but often what is a well known game can vary. For example, more Master System publications would attract more people from PAL regions where it was much more popular than the NES. A good start would be showing vault by default, since moons and stars only shows 42% of Master System games and hides some good ones. I personally like to TAS hidden gems to try to show people some very good but not well known games.
Game choice is almost completely nonexistent as a judgement criteria, the Vault is to thank for that. Now "game choice" means no more than "choose an actual game", something that has actual gameplay and value and isn't a storybook about Noah's Ark or something.
I started this thread because I had concerns about the Vault tier in its current state, some of which I and many others still have to this day (though there are quite a few I've lost over time, most of which coming from getting a look behind the scenes as a staff member). I agree it's a huge shame that people tend to avoid games they know nothing about (especially Lord of the Sword, seriously underrated TAS), and as such those games end up getting pushed to Vault, but it's not really something we can deal with at the moment without some huge site architecture changes... Although we are looking into doing that in the near future, so who knows what could come about from that...?
That's not to say that we'd have a site redesign ready anytime soon even if we did decide to put it into motion, it would still take months of re-coding the site/forum architecture from scratch and all of our coding wizards have lives outside of the site, so sadly our current ways of doing things will have to remain for quite a while.
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[21:23:18] <arandomgameTASer> Samsara: sorry sammy
[21:23:26] <arandomgameTASer> stealing that new page from you
[21:23:46] <TASVideoAgent> New reply by arandomgameTASer (OT: What song are you listening to right now?): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/435766#435766 [a:1]
[21:23:51] <arandomgameTASer> FUCK
[21:23:57] <arandomgameTASer> that's not a new page at all >_>
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Could someone familiar with both the SMS and GG versions of this game explain whether or not they're different enough to be published alongside each other? As far as I can tell after watching both, they look almost identical in level layout, so I'm leaning towards obsoleting the GG run, but I'd like a more informed opinion (or at least some general audience feedback) before I stick to one thing or the other.
The other thing I'm having issues with is the timing method used. How would we handle a new run that aimed for purely realtime or purely in-game time? The mixed method does seem like the most competitive/balanced method, but just in case someone does make a more traditional run I'd like to figure out a game plan before moving ahead and accepting this.
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I don't understand what's so unclear about it.
* The Vault tier does not take entertainment into account as a reason for rejection. In other words, it catches every publishable submission that the audience does not find entertaining.
* The bar for entertainment is set fairly high, with judges generally treating anywhere above 80-85% voting support as the level to reach for Moons.
* The Vault tier only allows any% runs and 100% runs, because it's arbitrary to publish niche categories that no one has any interest in.
* Both your run and 8bitBeast's run were deemed not entertaining enough by the audience, whether it be in the submission thread or in the publication ratings. This means they are Vault runs.
* Because they are Vault runs, they cannot exist side-by-side. If they were truly different categories, then one of them can't be an any% run by default, and thus it cannot be published to Vault.
* Both your run and 8bitBeast's run are any% completions. This is something you have stated yourself.
* Because they are both any% completions, we have to treat the 10 minute faster one as a 10 minute improvement, not an entirely separate category in terms of game completion. As I said: It's a route, not a category.
* We obviously can't publish different routes that lead to the exact same level of completion, otherwise we wouldn't have any obsoletions, and thus no level of actual competition.
Is there something else that's unclear?
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AngerFist wrote:
Samsara wrote:
There's a disconnect there? Please explain what it is.
The question is wrongly asked. Warp has pointed this out a million times before. Either keep that question and add another question like "should this run be published?" or a more relevant question. "Did you find this movie entertaining?" is too vague for viewers. You can find a run entertaining but deem it unworthy publication. I don't think a new viewer can connect that question that it helps judges to lean towards publishing a run. It can assume it, but the "vagueness" is still there.
But like Invariel said, the judge ultimately determines the fate of the run's publication. The audience is a means to determine the tier. If there are improvements that the audience knows about, they will bring them up in the thread and that can lead to the judge deciding to reject the movie. But overall, the question is not the issue here. It's peoples' misunderstanding of it. Some people still treat it as "Should this run be published" when that's not the point of it at all. Some people vote No for stupid, petty reasons like "the moderator told us to stop derailing the thread". Some people vote Yes literally just because a run is Sonic the Hedgehog even though the run itself is monotonous and boring. Changing the question will only lead to more confusion, as there will still be people who vote for bad reasons or don't even bother reading the question, but then there will be people that are used to the current question still voting the way they used to for a while.
AngerFist wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Entertainment is not a factor at all.
This further should enlighten the underlying problem. Entertainment is not a factor at all, yet what does the submission ask us? "Did you find this movie entertaining?"
Entertainment is not a factor for Vault runs. Had you not cherry-picked that line and actually read the two before it, you would have understood what I meant.
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AngerFist wrote:
The fundamental problem is the disconnection between how the vault works vs "did you find this movie entertaining?".
"Did you find this movie entertaining?"
YES - Moons
NO - Vault
There's a disconnect there? Please explain what it is.
If my Wonderboy 3 run completes the game entirely differently and is therefore entertaining in a different manner, should my run then be obsoleted by a much faster run which completes the game in an entirely different manner but is still entertaining?
The entire existence of Vault is based on the fact that we stopped considering the game's entertainment value as a reason to accept or reject runs. If the audience deems a run publishable, but not entertaining, then it goes to Vault. As a rule, arbitrary categories (i.e, anything that isn't any% or 100%) are not allowed in Vault because it doesn't make sense to publish niche categories that no one is interested in.
Your run was in Vault, this improvement was accepted to Vault. Entertainment is not a factor at all. What this is, is a routing improvement. This isn't two different categories. You even said yourself that it's two any% categories. Why would we publish both of these simultaneously? We don't have boring Chrono Trigger and glorious, exciting Chrono Trigger published simultaneously and they're even in different tiers to boot. Don't they complete the game in entirely different ways too, under your definition?
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I should also point out that there is technically gameplay improvement in this run: Heihachi is reached with a 0.19 second lower in-game time, likely due to the different fights scattered throughout the run (comparing fight-by-fight is impossible due to this). But that leaves the question of how manipulable the opponent choices are. If the path is set from the first fight, how many of them were tested? If opponents can be manipulated, is this the fastest group of opponents to fight?
And more importantly, do those ~12 estimated frames of improvement save anything over the time taken to turn off the music, or is it still a net loss?
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Alyosha wrote:
I happen to notice in Samsara's temp encode that the health never goes down. I have no idea why this might be, different ROM? I just mention it as a note to publishers since health management is a pretty important part of the run.
Yeah, different ROM, my bad. I can re-encode it on the right ROM if it makes any difference. It might help get more feedback for the run as well.
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WarHippy wrote:
Fantastic! 181K rerecords O.O While you were busy mastering this game, I was putzing around and found a couple additional tricks that can be added. I've uploaded a WIP with all of the details in the description section. It's a 33 frame improvement. If you want to just replace the submission file, then I would like a co-authorship. If you can improve most of these optimizations even further, then I would be fine with just an honorable mention :)
The improvement in question: User movie #31495437281340481
Any thoughts on this, Flip? I'll have to put off judging this until I get a response.
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Two different any% runs is not how Vault works, nor is it how Vault has ever worked, nor is it how any record site for anything has ever worked. This is a faster any% run, so it obsoletes the slower run. There's literally no reason to have both published at the same time if they're in the exact same category.
If you disagree with the system, take it up with the site at large, don't just post here because it affects you and what I can only assume to be a piddling amount of player points. There's a thread in Sites about problems with the Vault, might as well use that.
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It's negligible as long as there are gameplay improvements. Whoever's judging it will be able to differentiate between lag improvements and gameplay improvements. So go with whatever you want.
However I should bring up the Tekken submission thread, more specifically the recent sets of posts about the choice to turn off the music. It seems most people disagree with the practice even for Vault runs, especially for runs as long as this, so take caution if you choose to keep going. It'll be accepted no matter what as long as there's gameplay improvement, though.
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Do whatever you want for practice. Any game, any category, regardless of whether or not it's been done before. Just don't submit those practice runs to the site and everything will be okay.
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Ready Steady Yeti wrote:
Why the hell is this in the vault category and why are so many people saying it's boring?
Answered your own question there, mate. People saying it's boring = Vault. Entertainment is subjective, so there's no real answer to the second part of the question, but I'd wager a guess and say most people see the game as what it is: A fairly simplistic bootleg.
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Just edit the submission text and set it to cancelled if you want, it should be the only option you have other than "new".
