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TheAxeMan pretty much covered it, but I guess I can elaborate a bit:
though the L+R/U+D+L business can also be accomplished by alternating A/B presses when moving backwards while airborne, holding 'back' without any of those combinations for just a frame means Ryu is back to the normal, slow backwards jumping until 'forward' is pressed again, and that 'forward' must not be accompanied by any other button presses.
the stone pillars in 2-2 aren't like most of the other walls in the game: they are grab-able at points throughout their width (near the top at least), so if you can't get through it in one jump, you just end up kind of stuck inside it.
if you push against these walls before you have the height to get over them, the game won't let you over when you do get high enough. In the TAS there are three frames of no input after jumping off the wall because of this. You can see the same thing leaving the left-moving screens in 5-3.
if you did somehow manage to maintain 1.5 p/f reverse-air-movement on a console, that still only leaves a two-frame window to grab the wall on the other side, and it would probably be better to just drop down to the platform inside the pillar and continue on from a standing jump... if you could manage to clear the grabby-wall at all.
can't get high enough on the ladder-pillar you enter the screen on to jump over either.
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I tried working on this game a few years ago too. Lost interest. Gave up.
My thinking at the time was that doing 1, 3, 2.. would be faster because NEWT SUIT could somehow save time on the first screen of stage 3 (probably wrong! i doubt i even tested that)
Here is my first stab at it. Strategy: Go fast and gather power-ups during the auto-scrolling segments. Bad Idea!
Second attempt here. Strategy: Try to gather power-ups as soon as possible without wasting too much time.
And you've probably already found these but here they are anyway:
49A=player hp
A0=energy
4A9=boss hp
4C6=y_pos
4DC=y_sub
508=x_pos
51E=x_sub
534=y_spd
560=x_spd
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Yeah, long segments where you need to move opposing directions in different games, NG3 being the only one with vertical scrolling and left+right and up+down stopping Ryu dead in his tracks in NG3 are just the first problems that come to mind.
Letting the between-stage cinemas play partially might be helpful, but would be fairly annoying to watch. Letting them play through all the way might be good, but would probably throw completion times way out of synch.
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AnS wrote:
However, I think the run is still improvable. For example, in 4-1 you lose ~7 frames on first moving platform (2nd platform could appear earlier if you wouldn't stop for ninpo change). Do you really need that fire weapon later in the level?
When those platforms appear on screen has no effect on their position. I tested this by setting x58E (Y position) to 40 and xAD (invincibility) to 1 with the cheat function to float through the level. Even if i could save a few frames there and didn't waste any more time before the third moving platform, I'd just be waiting that much longer for it. And yeah, that weapon is needed to get the invincible fire wheel in 4-2.
Tristal wrote:
I notice you sort of backtrack to get an extra 10 ninja points near the end of stage 3, but don't use them on the boss, reasoning?
I'm not really backtracking there so much as trying to make the time wasted by the spacing of those little platforms look as smooth as possible and killing something at the same time. Gotta fall off the last one instead of jump to get the best use out of the forward moving water.
Tristal wrote:
It also looks like in 7-2C you're waiting for a platform for a while instead of using Invincible Fire Wheel and wall-jumping through spikes. It looks like you could IFW, grab the Red Energy, and wallclimb faster than waiting.
The only part of the wall you can grab in 7-2C is the electricity-free section on the left, and that doesn't really get you anywhere useful.
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Fine job, some really great moments in this run. I love what you did in 5-1B. Just did a frame comparison to my WIP and xipo is one frame faster on a few sections: 1-1A where it costs at least 3 frames in the next section and 7-2B which I had to enter with sub-optimal vertical subpixel position. He's also 3 frames faster in 4-2A which I think there was a good reason for... I do remember those 3 frames had me pulling my hair out though!
Sir VG wrote:
Wondering on one thing. Would killing your last 20 ninja points in Stage 6 save you any frames? Cause it does have to count them down.
Nope, that only wastes time in NG1.
adelikat wrote:
Once thing I couldn't figure out was in 6-2A (around frame 29000) why you jumped and landed on the wall at the bottom rather than the peak of the jump. This is done a couple of time and seems to glaring to be an oversight. But I couldn't figure out why it was done.
That's because of the squishy floor. Would've been slower to run forward to get in optimal wall-jumping position... except that there's a way around that. ;)
Angerfist wrote:
Whats good and different about Ninja Gaiden 3 is that you actually get a chance to see whats going on when you are facing a boss. In Ninja Gaiden 1 and 2, the boss fights are usually over within 1-2 seconds.. :)
Well, I hope that doesn't stop you from liking my run then. :p
TheAxeMan wrote:
I was wondering when Scumtron would get around to finishing his run but it looks like he hasn't been around for a while.
I've been sitting on an 11:12 run since July but just haven't found the time to finish it up. All that really needs done is wasting a few frames in 7-3D to leave with full ninpo and a few other minor tweaks. Hoping to have it up this weekend.
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moozooh wrote:
Is it impossible to hexedit it?
Of course not. But this game has enough randomness that it's just as effecient to redo all input in most cases. And since I'm finding myself second guessing almost every aesthetic decision, it doesn't really matter. Though, since I'm changing only a boss fight by a multiple of 3 frames, it may just slap right together with the existing levels' 3-7 input.
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This would've been done a month ago but I've been busy with other stuff. I had it just about ready to submit the other day when I found that the level 2 boss could be killed 12 frames faster. Time to start over again! :D
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Yep, reworking 2-2C (long auto-scrolling part with lava) was on my to-do list for after I had a complete and optimized run along with 4-1 since most of it is effectively auto-scrolling. Also the new trick should make some neat looking stuff possible, especially where speed isn't an issue. (yeah okay, up+a cancels jumping attack animations :p)
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I was working on tweaking/re-synching level six on my second draft of this run and was hoping to finish it up this weekend... but no! I stumbled upon a little trick that seems quite obvious in hindsight and should shave another 7-8 seconds off the run (mostly from boss fights.) So, time to start over. Since it will be difficult to make the improved boss slayings look interesting, I figured I'd post the WIP up to the end of level five for anyone who's interested.
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Sir VG wrote:
Personally, I don't see your "mildly humorous" attempt in v1. If v2 is faster, use it.
Honestly, I think I actually laughed out loud the first time I played it back, but you know... different strokes. :)
zidanax wrote:
Is it that the boss appears to be undecided about which way to go before slamming into the wall?
Yup.
Thanks for the input guys. Opinions noted. ;)
moozooh wrote:
Also, it's cool that you're finally running NG3, I look forward to seeing the finished run. :)
Glad to hear it, but don't expect much of anything too new or exciting... it's gonna be slightly faster boss fights and minor optimizations throughout... but I guess you could say that about all my submissions here. There's just not a lot that can be done with this game that hasn't already been done. (except for maybe in 6-2)
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Ninja Gaiden 3 - 6-3boss v1 (mildly humorous)Ninja Gaiden 3 - 6-3boss v2 (18 frames faster)
I've already decided which one is going into the finished run (v1 -- I like it that much) but I'm curious how many people share my opinion. Is it really "one third of a second more entertaining?" Is v2 more entertaining to you? Or should I stop making pointless topics and get back to work?
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easterndragon wrote:
this movie can be improved 40Frames at least,perhaps this cannot be believed by public.But I think the newer movie will be bornt in two weeks,scumtron perpetrated a principle mistake.All the way,I admire Scumtron,his movie is quite excellent
Awesome! I can't wait to see your improved run, easterndragon! :D
Edit: In case you're thinking what I think you're thinking, ending a level with ninpo to spare does not waste any time in this game (unlike NG1 where each point take 3 frames to tally into the score). I did try to minimize that as much as possible though. I ended level 4 with so much extra because it was the fastest way to get through the level.
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pdk wrote:
maybe it'd do good to have a trimmed-down (i.e. skipping the long-ass score tallies) avi, a la ninja gaiden 2's recent publication?
The score tallies are not skipped in Ninja Gaiden 2, though they are quite a bit quicker than in NG1.
I made available a version of the run that did not skip (press start) the cut-scenes between levels. Is this the source of the confusion?
Of course, I haven't bothered to download the .avi but I think I'll take Bisqwit on his word about that. :)
What are you talking about?
Okay, I'll watch your run now.
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So, working on NG2 motivated me to slap together all the minor improvements I've found in NG1 since the last submission and gave me a few ideas for further improvements. (None of them worked) Here's the result; I hate it. Yeah, it's still lacking the polish of a finished run, but I don't feel like screwing with it anymore and I don't think I will any time soon -- agonizing over every little frame is just getting old. Here it is anyway in case anyone would like to see the game completed as fast as possible. (Of that, I'm like... 80% confident)
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Baxter wrote:
Err... no it wouldn't, hence best possible response. That response showed you were confident about your run, and if someone says he can do better, he'll just have to try and see he's wrong.
Okay, okay. But as we all have seen, around here using terms like best possible, perfect, optimal just makes people want to prove a statement wrong. ;)
Mechuyael wrote:
How about one of the areas with the wind where one of your shadows appears on the other side of the screen because you're moving too fast?
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Baxter wrote:
Scumtron wrote:
Xipo wrote:
I think it is wonderful but not perfect.I think I can redue two frame at least.
Well, let's see it then. :)
Best possible response :)
Well, maybe a better response would have been: "If you have an idea how this run could be improved -- even by a single frame -- perhaps you could post an fcm demonstrating the improvement, or failing that briefly describe how you think it might be improved and I will test and implement it if it works out?"
moozooh wrote:
Also, deep respect for optimizing the subpixel shit. ;)
I need to edit the descrip to describe this better. Subpixel optimization in this game is pretty damned simple for the most part. Except for on the wind, water and ice, subpixel position can be only one of two values and is only reset to zero between areas when there's a cinema.
Also, any suggestions for a new screen shot? :)
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Mechuyael wrote:
I might have missed the glitch you mentioned where the enemy goes insane and goes off the platform.
Ah yes, you'll have to slow it down to actually see the wobbling since I only stopped long enough for him to hit me and give the necessary boost:)
adelikat wrote:
Wow, I rated the published run a 10/9. I guess this one gets the elusive 10/10. That is saying a lot coming from a guy as picky as me :P
Awesome! :)
adelikat wrote:
You are also working on a ninja gaiden 1 improvement too? :O
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...bred for its skills in magic.
And yeah, what Baxter said. It's still annoying, but better than no toggle at all. (I had no idea there was a toggle at all while working on my ng1/ng2 runs >.<)
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TheAxeMan wrote:
About NG3, I would speculate that your ninja powers may exceed mine enough to shave a few frames on some levels and boss fights. But as you mentioned, it will take more (like a new glitch) to get more than a second or two overall. I didn't do much luck manipulation, though it doesn't seem to be possible in many cases. If you can get moving platforms to line up at the right time it would be a pretty big deal, but good luck.
I played with NG3 a bit last night and found a couple of relatively significant improvements; going up the left wall in 7-2a saves 46 frames and it looks like the last two bosses could be done at least 20 frames faster. Still, nothing terribly exciting. Also, L+A,__,R+A... is a slightly faster pattern for wall climbing. As for the moving platforms, did you have any ideas about that? because my admittedly limited testing showed that there was nothing at all random about them.
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AngerFist wrote:
Wowie wow wow! You completely own this game. You float through this game like a nonchalant butterfly ;) Kickass run, voting yes. Now, will the Ninja Gaiden holiness complete the last game of this series and be the undisputed Ninja Gaiden King? ^_^
nonchalant butterfly... I love it.
About NG3... I'm not touching it until I feel I can bring something new to the run and/or until I think I can improve it by more than 3 seconds; I don't want to do it just to put my name on it... also, i need to get a damn job already.Angerfist wrote:
Edit: This game has the best music (especially the train stage) for all Ninja Gaiden NES games
Agreed. Though I think it sounds the best with the winamp nsf plugin i use... EDIT: Bleep!. It's been way too long since I played on an NES to know which is most accurate though.
Angerfist wrote:
and about the bonus bags, what does your heart tell you? :) (you decide).
Obviously I've already decided :) I'm just curious about what other people think.
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adelikat wrote:
You have my deepest respect scumtron. This is Grade A TASing. Obvious yes vote. I will rate this run with AT LEAST a 9 in entertainment & technical quality.
Reading this makes it all seem worth it. I'll just have to try to not let it inflate my ego too much :) Though I have to admit I was a little sloppy in not removing input that had no effect on the game... wonder if anyone notices.
One question: picking up the bonus point bags... good, bad or nobody cares?