Posts for Slowking


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It is extremely hard in OoT to reach optimal height with bomb hovers. The bomb physics just don't lend themselfs for it. Plus to get on the skull you'd need to hover quite a lot, since it's high. Plus that would mean getting 6 more bomb drops from luck. 2 to get up there, plus 4 you lose by not getting the bomb bag. In conclusion:
Slowking wrote:
Hovering in OoT sucks. RTA will never do that.
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Cardboard wrote:
And see, it only took 3 days, but asking nicely, I pretty much got all the information I needed. You guys aren't as dense as you might seem! Not even half as dense as the dude hugging Link and opening walls and punching his chest and doing something with a gem. He might have a name, I couldn't tell from the cutscene.
The cutscene where he tells Link his name is skipped anyway. ;) That's part of our point. Even if this was in english, you wouldn't understand anything.
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Twelvepack wrote:
Saethori wrote:
If people are going to make cutscene-less encodes of the run anyway, doesn't that somewhat obsolete the point of breaking the language rule in the first place?
Not really. It was mentioned a few pages back that the length of the cut-scenes could effect route choice, so it is not that simple. That said, it probably didn't but it is notable that it could.
Yeah it did. If the fairy ocarina cutscene was any longer it would have been better to get a bottle instead.
amaurea wrote:
Thankfully, the inexperienced viewers, experienced viewers and Zelda TASers can all have their cake and eat it too, by including a subtitle track with the English dialogue, as has been suggested several times during this thread. And while we're at it, I hope there will also be a subtitle track with commentary and trick description, such as there was for Cave story.
Yeah the official encode should probably have chapters for skipping cutscenes *nudges Aktan* and a subtitle file. If somebdoy is actually willing to make that. Would be too much work for too less benefit for me. I don't think anybody would make a subtitle commentary. An audio commentary on a second audio track is probably more likely.
Inzult wrote:
fwiw even though over the course of the whole run cut scenes are like 12 minutes or whatever faster, it doesn't feel (to me) like any individual cut scene goes by noticeably quicker. (imo)
Please watch the english and japanese light arrow cutscene again, then come back here. If you can still say this with a straight face, we'll have to have your sense of time checked.
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Hovering in OoT sucks. RTA will never do that.
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upthorn wrote:
  • I have not noticed anyone saying that they would be inconvenienced or discontented by the run being in English instead of Japanese
See me? Good. I'm going to kill myself if I have to sit through the light arrow cutscene at english speeds one more time. Even with fast foreward in mupen it's deadly.
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Twelvepack wrote:
Swordless Link wrote:
IDK man, maybe you should build a time machine and go back to 2008 and ask it then when Bloob submitted his run of this category here. Just accept it, it's an accepted category at TASVideos.
Yes, but where and when was it decided that it should not use RBA? His submission text never mentions it.
Swordless, you should probably edit that inyour submission text before abeshi decides to run it with RBA...
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Personman wrote:
Came back to this thread to re-request a cutsceneless encode and point out that for those who really really want to see the cutscenes in English, putting out a nice set of subtitles would be a good direction to channel that energy. But Tompa's already on it (Thank you! So much!) and Melismatically already made that point, so I guess I don't really need to post after all.
Maybe Aktan can just add chapters to the official encode and do some magic that cutscene-chapters are automatically skipped, if you select that option? I know that can be done with mkv, not sure about mp4. The official encode could also include selectable subs inside the mp4/mkv for that matter. But somebody who actually cares would have to make those.
rog wrote:
Swordless Link wrote:
BA and RBA are banned in this category (as is wrong warping as that involves BA). That's just how we define it. The reasoning behind it is that RBA can be used to skip basically everything shown in this run, so it would be arbitrary if we allowed RBA in it.
Not allowing ba/rba is still entirely arbitrary. You could easily use rba and still do everything that is required. The only reason it's not allowed is because that's what the community decided.
Yeah shit is arbitrary. This category has had the same arbitrary rules for 6 years now. Get over it.
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Anywho. I just noticed again how fucking pointless this discussion is. How do you keep draggin me back in? As long as there is no route that is faster than the RBA route nobody will TAS this game with stick on B. If there is another route found we can still bash our skulls in. For the time being, I'm out.
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Mupen doesn't get the same load times, Dolphin doesn't, so are we talking hypotheticals now?
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RingRush wrote:
Okay guys, I don't see how this is so complicated. OoT N64 and OoT VC are different games (shoutouts to angerfist). The sole difference between them is not just stick on B (among other things, there are lag, loading time, and slight control differences). Thus modifying mupen to allow stick on B would not even be attempting to "play VC on an easier emulator" it would be playing your own creation. If you want to do that and call it an OoT hack, go ahead, but that -would not be Ocarina of Time-, N64 version or VC version.
That's really bullshitty, RR. None of the emulators emulates lag accurately and none uses input devices the actual console would use. So both your arguments don't hold water. The GCN version in mupen is the GCN version. Emulators are not part of the game. Mupen will emulate this version reasonably acurate. Just as well or better than Dolphin would.
rog wrote:
petrie911 wrote:
And just to open a new can of worms, does this mean Master Quest has to be TASed through Dolphin, should anyone have the urge to do so?
No. It can be TASed with mupen, so long as no emulation glitches are abused, just like with OoT.
So that means you want to disallow gltiches that are possible in that version and put it on a "console" (well the category of that console) where it never existed? What happened to "the game should perform as on the original console? MQs original console is GCN.
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Enterim wrote:
I believe the obvious solution is to run N64 games in VC in Dolphin in Hourglass in a Windows VM on *nix, right?
That sounds right. It's what everybody wants, right? emulator in emulator in emulator in emulator.
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You guys were arguing that you can only use Stick on B, if it works on the original console of that version, so that TASvideos "number one doctrine" "has to be able to be done on the original console" is preserved. This version is from the GC, can only be found on the GC, and stick B works on the GC. It's that simple. Ofcourse you can make a complete 180 now. Wouldn't be the first time, but that makes you prettty big hypocrits...
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rog wrote:
Slowking wrote:
ShadowWraith wrote:
I think rog was saying you should dump the GC ROM to an N64 cart and see if it crashes on the console, not that you should try it in mupen...
Oh it will totally crash on an N64. But that doesn't matter. Mupen is not an N64. And this is clearly the GC version. Everbody can see this. Nobody will expect that it works on the N64.
Except the rom inside the gc version is NOT a GC game. It's an n64 game. The the emulator is part of the GC game. You cannot just remove parts of the game because you don't like it.
It's not an N64 game. There is no such version on the N64 and it clearly does have N64 buttons. The emulator is just a wrapper to make the game run. There is no game code in there. Next you'll tell me a processor is part of a game or a graphics chip.
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ShadowWraith wrote:
I think rog was saying you should dump the GC ROM to an N64 cart and see if it crashes on the console, not that you should try it in mupen...
Oh it will totally crash on an N64. But that doesn't matter. Mupen is not an N64. And this is clearly the GC version. Everbody can see this. Nobody will expect that it works on the N64. They will expect it to work on a GC and that it does.
ShadowWraith wrote:
You and I seem to have different expectations of what a TAS constitutes. You know, super-human displays of skill in a video game, where the primary goals are entertainment and speed. It was entertaining and it was faster than the run the site had at the time. What's not to like?
For anybody who knew a little about OoT TAsing or even OoT speedrunning it was not entertaining, it was infuriating. Ofcourse somebody that doesn't know better thinks it's pretty good. 3D games are hard to gage. Does that mean we should except every bit of superplay from now on, just because casual viwers won't know the difference? The run was objectively crap, plain and simple. You can see that by the fact how much Bloob improved on it. You guys published crap here.
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rog wrote:
Well, sure, you can tas that rom on mupen if you want. But if B stick doesn't work when you play that rom on an n64, then you still can't use in mupen.
So you are all for that? Good. Oh and btw. yes it does work: The game doesn't show the buttons when deku stick is out as adault. But the screenshots are just a few frames apart.
rog wrote:
I dunno. I'd suggest testing it on an n64, but i doubt anyone here has the means to do so. Might be worth testing in pj64 or something to see if void hovers work on that. Though i don't think it's even useful anyway?
Ofcourse this won't work on an N64. But mupen is NOT an N64. Mupen is an emulator. And it can emulate the GC version. And the GC version can do this on console. So why shouldn't we use mupen to emulate the GC version and put it into a GC category?
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What about the GC version? There the buttons still look completely different? How is that a N64 version, when such a version never existed on the N64? It's easily distinguishable as the GCN version, even when it's TASed on mupen.
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Derakon wrote:
In contrast, the emulator in the Virtual Console is official. It was published by Nintendo. So even if its behaviors don't match the real console it's imitating, we can chalk that up to version differences. Really this is more of a port -- like running, say, the Playstation version of Metal Slug instead of the arcade version. Dolphin is just how we get access to that port. As long as it is itself an accurate emulator, it's completely immaterial to the discussion.
Except for the fact that it's not a port. If it was a port there wouldn't be discussion. It's just "Legend of Zelda, The - Ocarina of Time (U) (V1.2) [!].z64" in an emulator (yes even the checksum matches).
Remember, the theory is that you ought to be able to replace the controller with some form of digital signal source that replicates the inputs (TASBot-style) and get the same movie on real hardware. With Mupen and a real N64, you can't do that because the emulator is inaccurate. With Dolphin / VC Wii, so far as we know you could.
But with mupen on a real GC/Wii it will also work. So why not use mupen to emulate these versions?
ShadowWraith wrote:
Are you implying that TASVideos should leave the movie judging to only those people intimately familiar with the game? You should probably think that one through.
I'm implying that TASvideos shouldn't accept movies that are crap. In this case they (you) clearly did and everybody who knew a little about tasing this game could see it. Even superplay looks good to the untrained eye. Does that mean tasvideos should lower itself to except every piece of crap? Abeshis run was not even tased with the TAS input plugin. That should have been a big red flag for everybody. Even if they were blind.
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ShadowWraith wrote:
That said, nobody is stopping you doing your TAS of the 'entertaining route' using mupen. It just won't be accepted here.
Yeah right. TASvideos has proven that they will accept almost anything, when they accepted abeshis OoT any% TAS, when everybody who knew the game told them how shit it was.
DarkKobold wrote:
Actually, I'm starting to see slowking's point, but not in a way that will make him happy. If the VC 'version' really is just the OoT rom being emulated, then Deku stick on B should just be banned, outright. It is an emulation error. Does it matter if the emulation error is inside the Wii, which is also being emulated by dolphin?
That is not the outcome I'd like to see. However it would at least make sense from some point of view. I just find it insane trying to force people to use dolphin, when the result could be produced with mupen and just be filed under GC/Wii.
petrie911 wrote:
Or you could do the run on Master Quest. There's no version of that where the Deku Stick on B doesn't work.
Or how about the GCN version in general? It's clearly distinguishable as GCN, since it has the GCNs button collors. So everybody would know that this is in fact not a TAS that could be done on the N64.
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goofydylan8 wrote:
Also I have never seen a run have so many day old accounts fervently defending its honor like has occurred on this run. I am far from the oldest account on this site and believe everyone has the right to voice their opinion but seriously, there are 5 accounts that have only ever commented in this thread and were some of the more rude posts telling people who have been here for years that they are wrong and insulting them for stating the rules of the site.
Well those are all long time Zelda runners. So they might not have much expertise in TASing, but certainly in terms of Zelda.
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DarkKobold wrote:
This is true. See the recent SDA marathon, Cosmo ran OoT (J) on VC via Wii. (Maximum acronyms, go!)
Those are not acronyms, they are initialisms. (except "Wii", that's just a name) (yay for being a smartass in my 600th post. I won't break with tradition!)
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upthorn wrote:
No individual cut-scene is significantly shortened
So two minutes shaved off of the light arrow cutscene and almost as much off the zeldas letter cutscene is not significant? It's not like it's a few seconds, it's minutes. (love the random bolding in this thread)
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Synx wrote:
Congratulations. It finally seems as if you understand that such a run would have to be submitted as a run on a different console than N64.
Congratulations you managed to miss my point this whole entire time! I don't care where a run is categorized. What I do care about is trying to force people to use an emulator in an emulator or disallowing a glitch all console runners use, because it's possible on a real console. Categorize it under "moonstones" for all I care.
ShadowWraith wrote:
This is my first post in this thread recently, Synx, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Yes, a run using the route other people want would mandate it being done on the VC/GC versions. That much has been said already, I was just pointing out to Slowking that TASes must be theroetically possible on the console they're done on. Since that route does not work on N64 because it requires an emulation inaccuracy, then the TAS wouldn't be accepted on the N64 version.
TASes are not done on console, they are done on emulators. Here the diocy comes in, since at some point there is always an "inacurate" N64 emulator. Tasing it in mupen means "'inacurate' N64 emulator --> game" Tasing it in dolphin means "Wii emulator --> 'inacurate' N64 emulator --> game" There is no difference in the outcome. With the second option, you just put an emulator in an emulator and broke everybodys CPU, yay.
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Well a programmer could also make a mupen that has the pause bug fix and reset, so we wouldn't be bound to Jabo (I explained above why another plugin would be preferable). But sadly no programmer cares for N64 TASing. :( At least I don't know of one.
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ShadowWraith wrote:
I can't help but feel like you're missing a rather obvious point here. If it doesn't work in the N64 version of the game on console then you shouldn't use it in a TAS of the N64 version of the game. It's not rocket science. If you think that's a dumb rule, then you're obviously unaware of what the site is for and should probably read up on it.
The problem here being, that there are no different versions of the game. Just the same version in 4 different consoles (well 3DS has a graphics overhaul and other slight changes). On N64 it crashes, but on GC, Wii and 3DS it works just fine. Mupen is not an N64. It is just an emulator for a game, a game that supports StickB in 3 of it's 4 versions. If it makes you happy you can file a TAS with StickB under the Wii category. But TASing it in dolphin would be stupid.
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DarkKobold wrote:
Slowking wrote:
What seems really silly to me is having to use an emulator in an emulator, where only people with high end computers will be able to play it back at full speed, to get the exact same result, you can get with a different graphics plugin (already availible) on mupen. And it does work in mupen. That's the whole point. Nobody is talking about reprogramming mupen to allow stick on B.
We get it. You don't like this rule. Get over it. Repeating yourself 50 more times isn't going to change it.
The discussion at the moment really has nothing to do with tasvideos moronic rules. Yes this site does have stupid rules left and right, but what interest me right now is how something can be considered not legit when it works on most iterations of the game on real consoles. And how it is a better idea to use an emulator in another emulator instead of just straight up using an emulator.
rog wrote:
Slowking wrote:
Nobody is talking about reprogramming mupen to allow stick on B.
Yes they are. The pause bug is only fixed in the plugin which does not allow you to use B stick. That would need to be fixed.
The pause bug is actually an emulator bug. There even is a version of mupen that fixes it. The problem is that version doesn't have reset. The option in Jabo 1.6 just happens to reduce the pause lag so much that it's basically nonexistant. It's a lucky coincidence. But the option also reduces framerate considerably (it's about an 8th of the speed you would otherwise get), so it also slows TAS progress, because playbacks from the beginning are a pain. We would just like a proper fix in mupen, not this sloppy workaround. Jabo 1.6 is not the best graphics plugin for OoT and you can not use texture packs with it. So something like the cel-shading encode of the current any% TAS is impossible. So there are reasons apart from Deku Stick B to want a mupen that sucks slightly less than the current one.
rog wrote:
As far as running an emulator in an emulator, the VC version of oot runs even faster than most wii/gc games do. Yes, it still requires a top of the line pc to run at full speed, but most should be able to run it at at least half speed, and if that's not good enough, they can always watch an encode.
You should consider that somebody also has to TAS it. That means playback, after playback, after playback. Not every TASer here has a high end computer. Btw. just noticed that Jabo 1.6 actually can emulate deku stick on B. Problem is different than other graphic plugins it won't just continue running when it encounters inconsistencies. It will throw an error box and pause emulation. But between error boxes you can get input in (use stick, break stick) and if you put the stick away the game continues to run normally. Ofcourse that doesn't help with the TAS, but I thought it was interesting.