I don't see why it matters how it works in other versions. Those other versions can be TASed. Reprogramming an emulator you're familiar with to allow you to take advantage of an emulation glitch just because you don't feel like playing on an emulator you are not used to just seems a bit silly to me. If you need to use a glitch that works in one version but not another, you need to use the one it works in, or don't use the glitch.
What seems really silly to me is having to use an emulator in an emulator, where only people with high end computers will be able to play it back at full speed, to get the exact same result, you can get with a different graphics plugin (already availible) on mupen.
And it does work in mupen. That's the whole point. Nobody is talking about reprogramming mupen to allow stick on B.
You didn't read very carefully, did you? It can be prevented by using a different graphics plugin than Jabo.
Of course I meant by in-game actions, not by introducing further emulation inaccuracies. Hey, why don't we use a different CPU plugin that interprets every opcode as "jump to the end of the game"? We'll just say we're fixing a bug in the original N64 hardware that caused the game to run normally instead of beating itself.[/quote]
Because there is no official version that allows this. However there are 3 official versions that allow for stick on B (GC, Wii, 3DS). Considering how many bugs they fixed on 3DS shhouldn't this have been fixed if it was a bug?
I think they deliberatly allow access to more memory to prevent crashes. Probably not this particular one, but others like it. YMMW here, but the fact remains that there are 3 versions out there where this trick works, vs. 1 where it doesn't.
That's kinda like blaming a person for getting in the way of a bullet. The N64 didn't have a bug. OoT did, and the N64 reacted as it was designed (throwing an exception on out-of-bounds access). The emulator is in the wrong, ignoring that and allowing it to keep running.
No it didn't. It just crashed. That is a whole lot different than throwing an exception or ignoring a command.
Furthermore Nintendo doesn't patch the roms when they want to change/fix something. Rather they change the emulator to apply patches on the fly. See the changed block and shield symbols in OoT. So who is to say this wasn't a deliberate fix?
I should note though, IIRC the game only crashes if you attempt to use the Deku Stick as an adult. I had the stick on B many times on the N64, and it worked fine as long as I didn't press B. From what I've seen none of the routes require actually using the stick, so the game wouldn't crash anyway.
Actually all of the new routes would profit from actually using a stick on B. That's what this whole thing is about.
It'd also be worth investigating to see if the crash can be prevented, by using a different version or figuring out what causes it.
You didn't read very carefully, did you? It can be prevented by using a different graphics plugin than Jabo.
Sounds to me like the GC/Wii version uses an inaccurate imitation of the real behavior.
Or they deliberatly fixed a bug the N64 has with OoT, where the game sometimes reads memory that is out of the N64s range. After all, why give the emulator more range than the N64 had, unless you want to prevent these kinds of crashes? Who knows what Nintendo was thinking. ;)
]So by this logic it would be okay to use stick on B with the VC version in dolphin, but not with mupen?
Well, then it would be a VC TAS, not an N64 TAS. Part of our whole mission statement is that the games can theoretically be played back on their respective console. We'd be going against that concept if we knew it wasn't actually possible.
So I'd say Deku stick on B should not be used in mupen.
Except in the end you won't see any difference except the "you'll need a classic controller text".
Also nothing here is played on console, everything is played in an emulator. VC is played in an emulator, actually.
Bottom line this trick is possible on console, with the exact same version of the game that can be used in mupen. It's just not possible on N64.
Emulator glitches should not be abused to make a Nintendo 64 run play like a VC run. Each Nintendo 64 Ocarina of Time TAS should (to the best of our knowledge) be representative of how the actual Nintendo 64 hardware would respond to the input.
So by this logic it would be okay to use stick on B with the VC version in dolphin, but not with mupen?
So this makes you use an emulator in an emulator............
Also it's not really an emulator glitch. It's just that the emulators can adress higher memory than the N64 could. Basically N64 crashing with deku stick on B is a bug that is fixed in the emulators. So it's the opposite of an emulator bug, it's an emulator fix. ;)
Buuut like I said it's a really useless discussion, since it's slower anyway.
That stick B works on Wii and GC, is also an "emulation glitch". There is no "version" stick B works on. Wii has the normal 1.2 rom and GC a slightly patched 1.2 rom.
But as far as we can see this route is slower than the RBA route anyway, because we need an ocarina and that cutscene takes forever. So this discussion is useless.
It's actually really clear. The point under "it must beat the game" just clarifys what is considered beating it and that point states "It must be able to reach the credits or end screen without the viewer needing to do anything; all input must come solely from the input file (e.g. configuring the emulator to autofire after the end of playback is not allowed). "
If the game shows "the end" it's beaten. That is a clear definition, that is in the rules. We deal in clear definitions here, we are not SDA, who time from "first getting control" to "last hit to last boss" or something.
Any% means by definition completing the game as fast as possible, by any means necessary.
Problem is that "completing the game" needs a clear definition.
Da rules clearly state that a game is completed when it shows "the end" or an aquivalent, when it doesn't have "the end". That's really clear cut and I think the rules have been there for about ten years. Curious that you never read them...
God, tasvideos gets on my nerves some times. It's not like this is going to be 20 minutes faster or change the route that much.
Besides having anything be faster than any% is just stupid. Any% means by definition completing the game as fast as possible, by any means necessary.
I know we have quite a few runs on this site that are faster than the any%, doesn't make it less stupid
Synx wrote:
Secondly, "The faraoes wind straight to credits skip" worries me. If I was playing OoT as a kid and randomly wanted to see a video of how fast the game could be beaten (which was the case when I first stumbled upon this site), I would not be satisfied with a video that got to the credits without beating the final boss. (Why not is another discussion). And it is my impression that the majority of casual videogame enthusiasts would feel the same way.
However, the more educated followers of runs do not share this concern. So to me it seems to be a question of evaluating what audience you want to focus on.
The OoT any% isn't stared precisely because it's way too glitched for casual viewers already. So we are way past appealing to them.
What the...
Well if that makes it into a published run, it'll certainly be in its own Glitched category.
Yeah sure, because RBA is not glitched.
Actually RBA is way more glitched and this will only be slightly faster. I don't see this being a new category. We have MST for a full game run.
This game is actually quite fun and a TAS should be fun, too.
But it's really not that high on the priority list that we would have to discuss it until it actually runs in mupen.
What might work for this is: injecting it into the OoT wad and then TASing it in Dolphin. Somebody who cares more than me should probably test it. :D
You need to disable dual core and idle skipping while tasing. You will not get 30 fps. LLE audo is also obviously a lot slower.
Also, the camera works just fine for me.
Well a way to help start on any% would be either finding or making a video of the sword going down zora's river. I heard it was made but various attempts to find on youtube turned fruitless and the the person I heard it from hasn't posted it so, perhaps it's a myth. This video would be very nice to figure which route is faster.
or something that way because people have the bad habit to vote No because they dont like the game
No, people have the habit of voting no, because the TAS turns out boring, as the game doesn't lend itself to a TAS.
Sorry, but voted no. I'm sure the technical quality is great, but I couldn't get any entertainment out of it.
Aiming is tied to movement. The wii version can aim independently. It takes like 2 seconds to turn around and aim behind you on the gc. The wii version can aim anywhere on the screen in 2 frames.
Still don't see how that would be a problem in a TAS. You can just initially move in the right direction, so that you don't have to do extra movements to aim. Ofcourse it's a hassle but doable.
Like I said there are quite some places in the OoT and MM TAS, where console players have to aim with c-up, but TAS just goes there and does it.
Wii TASing isn't quite there yet, from the input options. Plus motion controls will probably never be as precise as button controls.
Ofcourse faster running is an argument. But from what I understand you could achive the same speed with sidewards running? Why not just use that?
rog wrote:
I tried on the GC version, and it didn't seem possible, but between running faster, throwing pikmin further and more accurately without needing to move around like an idiot to adjust aim, it should be pretty easy with the wii version.
Why would you need to move around like an idiot to aim in a TAS? The whole thing about a TAS is that you can just run to a place and do things, where console runners would have to aim. For an example see the door of time skip in OoT.
Slowking, your post is unbelievably so wrong that I am not sure where to begin smashing it. You are a very ignorant person.
Uh somebody calling somebody ignorant without any arguments. How original!
- Manipulation is in general way easier in 2D games. Ofcourse there are exceptions to the rule. Like Pokémon or OoS/OoA
- But movement is still way harder in a 3D game, especielly in something like MM where you have to find the perfect angle then decide between sidehopping, backflipping and doing a slide and when you are done with testing all these you'll probably have to change the angle again
Where am I wrong here? Please enlighten me.
arukAdo wrote:
Thats why theres voting, its not all a matter of "deserving" it, the public also have to vote for you, if awards was just for people that "deserve" it, then no need to make votes.
But I dont think this compare of 3D tas vs 2D ones is right, just look up for CT tas and tell me the memory corruption and all tricks involve arent as tedious as for a 3D game.
I don't see how save corruption is hard to TAS. You just reset on a certain frame. Sure it is hard to figure out where to reset, but then again routing MM and finding new breaks also took over a year. Same goes for memory corruption, hard to figure out, but not hard to TAS when figured out.
Now one another problem, usually old emulator (nes for exemple) are more robust, so one reason its hard to tas majora mask is the emulator is garbage, this again shouldnt matter to the audiance, or its not something major they would focus on.
That is absolutely true for "TAS of the year". But doesn't "TASer of the year" award the work the TASer has done? Doesn't fighting against a crappy emulator play into the work he has done?
Just a reminder. I was not saying that any TASer here is more deserving than another. I wouldn't want to make that judgement. Everybody in that list is a lot more talented than I am.
I was just saying one shouldn't dismiss Grunz because he "only" made one TAS. I have seen how much work went into this TAS and I haven't seen any other TAS that has half as much work put into it.
Somebody will probably twist what I said, again, but whatever...
MrGrunz FTW! He did an EXCELLENT job with the Majora's Mask TAS.
while it is a great TAS, I don't think it's enough alone for a "TASer of the year award"
Imo, one should consider that optimizing a 3D game takes infinetly longer than a 2D game. With every move you make you have to test a veriety of angles, enemy manipulation is harder, the RNG can't be as easily manipulated, etc.
So if one, one hour and thirty minutes long, 3D game isn't enough to make TASer of the year, that is pretty crappy for those TASers, since it's basically ipossible to TAS more than one in a year.
I'm not saying other TASers might not deserve this award, I'm just saying dismissing Grunz because he tackled a long-ass 3D game, on an emulator that desynchs like hell, is unfair.
