Well most RTSs let you save whenever and if you set them to the slowest speed they crawl so slowly it might as well be frame advance.
lua isn't implemented in any of the 3D emulators (unless PSX has it and I don't know about it), but there are still high quality TASes on the emulators.
Yeah it won't ;p
You really don't save that much with skipping the sword, since going to the shop takes quit some time, too.
Then the sword speeds up going down zoras river, then 1-2 HISS in hyrule field, slashing cuccos here and there, etc.
I would really like the swordless dot skip to be usefull, too. It is awesome. Sadly I just don't see it. :(
Yeah Mario has money! He has a successful plumbing business. Why should he jump through Bowsers hoops?
AngerFist wrote:
Congratulations on the discovery. With all due respect, I hope this won't be incorporated in the future any% and 96-exit run as it really loses it's entertainment value if basically all or huge amount of the stages will look like that. Own category (if people find it entertaining enough, I don't if all stages will be completed in 2-3 seconds) is probably the best thing.
Regrding any%: before Iggys castle the levels are too short for this to help and after you alway use the alternate exit, so you can't use the sphere.
Only place it might help is in Iggys castle itself. I think that's what the video was about. Seems pretty close though.
Imo it would be really fun if the only koopa you actually defeated was Bowser. You just ignore his children. :D
Yeah nowadays you'll find new zelda stuff on ZSR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlBVVwDm_ks#t=6m30s
With the clip you don't have to wait for navi to speak up.
Way too inconsistent for a normal run, but perfect for a TAS.
So this is barbie IN the 12 dancing princesseses, hm?
Damn Barbie trying to turn out daughters into lesbians! I knew something was weird with her having that dickless boyfriend. Probably just a very butch woman!
So anywho I apreciate what you've done here. The glitching trhough walls is fun and all. But before you get the running ability this is just soooo boring.
Voting meh.
Nice one.
Only one question :D : The hit you take in the beginning seems to slow you down for a few frames. Couldn't you prevent that with a water shield?
Btw. congrats on your world record.
Phantom Ganon can only be killed with the Hookshot. This was just a theory we had back then and never tested it. It doesn't work.
Ähm no. I was like "are you really sure you can kill phantom Ganon with bombs?" and you were like "yeah I'm absolutely sure".
Next time test your crap better. :p
Synx wrote:
So this does at least means that any WIP from bloob would have to be remade from the beginning. Assuming it can't be hex-edited
Didn't you see the "might" in there?
Translation: It doesn't. Sword speeds up going down zoras river and a few other things too much.
That doesn't mean that bloobs run can't be dramatically improved and aqua escape is definatly faster than the bridge clip he used. But no sword as child doesn't help.
And I don't know if anybody is actually willing to do it.
Edit:
Another thought Grunz.
If we had chus from getting odd mush as child, we could steal Epona. And you know what they say "you can lead a horse to water..." :D
Not sure if it works with epona, but I think it should...
Edit: you do become swordless by stealing epona, but it doesn't help much. You would still have to play the game afterwards to get stick on B. And you can't since the game isn't there anymore after you have stolen her.
So unless there is another place where you can turn swordless into sticky B, that is preferably on the way, this does not help.
Why would it require hookshot? You can hover up and Grunz says you can kill phantom ganon with bombs. (phase one, phase two would be with isg or pcs deku stick.
In the 3 minutes for odd mush you get the hover boots and do forest temple.
And no bombchus are required. You can use bombs. RBA is far enough at that point.
Don't light arrows do 4 damage in OoT, too? If so enemies should die quickly. If not, well there is always a way. :D
Biggest problem I see is that you would need to buy a stick two times. Once for forest and shadow and once for prelude cs skip, as you need to do RBA between the two.
Btw. there is also a possible MQ route with getting the hammer. If somebody searches for a never before done TAS. :D
That trick to manipulate the ingame timer using Ganon's Castle doesn't fix our problem, you can only ride at daytime. so we'd have to visit the ranch twice before we can go to ganon's castle to set the ingame timer to 0:00:00. from there it still takes like a minute for it to become daytime.
Only possibility is to set the timer to midnight between the two ranch visits (you have to do two anyway), then wait in front of the ranch for it to become day time.
Sound slower than old route, though...
My last hope is getting Odd Mushroom as child, and turning it into cojiro again.
This would cut off 6:40 of Bloob's TAS, but the question remains: Can all that other stuff really be done in 6:40?
- Getting Bombchus from the well(requiered to reach the Mushroom chest) takes 2:50. We'd also get Deku shield and Hylian Shield from 2 chests in the well. This would skip collecting some rupees and buying the Hylian Shield, so alltogether, getting bombchu costs only 2:20.
- Getting the Odd Mushroom takes around 2:05. No idea how long it takes to travel back to the market, maybe 1:10. We should try to come up with a faster way for that.
This leaves us with 1:05 to get Bottle on B. To be honest, due to having to visit the ranch twice, getting the bottle with the new takes way longer than that. I might be able to do it in 2 minutes, but then we'd still have to find a 1 minute timesaver somewhere, which seems pretty unlikely.
So my idea is your last hope, hä? :D
Hylian shield is also down there? Did not know that.
Yeah that you have to visit the ranch twice blows. Would be nice if the B button would just grey out form hanging from a ledge, like it does on 3DS.
Especially the Light Arrow B route needs such a magical discovery.
It really doesn't. It just needs working stick on B. ;)
Well at least to be faster than the current route on U. It's hard to tell on J.
Doesn't pay off. For it to be faster you would still need Stick on B. So use VC version in Dolphin or nothing.
For a Master Quest any% the hammer would be an option.
In other news:
Sadly other than in the 3DS version the B button doesn't grey out when you are hanging from a ledge.
So current adault route looks like this:
- get to Kakariko, collect pocket egg
- get to Lon Lon and ride once
- save and quit
- go to ganons castle area to set the clock to night (I tested it, it works. I'm not really sure if it is really midnight or the beginning of the night, though. It still takes forever to become morning)
- go back to Lon Lon and play the game again, this time no need to ride though. Just quit it
- Now you have stick on B. Let that RBA begin. (but no savewarping from now on or B will become empty again.)
Alternate route:
- get to Lon Lon and ride once
- get to Kakariko, your B button will gray out on the way.
- get pocket egg
- die from something but don't quit, probably best from cuccos in Kakariko
- go back to Lon Lon, play the game again, but quit before riding
- Now you have stick on B
- save & quit
- go to Ganons castle to advance time to night.
I'm too tired to figure out which one of these routes would be faster. And if they even are faster than the old one for that matter.
Main problem with light arrow B is still that the forest temple takes forever to clear. Odd mushroom takes too long to tick down to be usable in skipping the cutscene...
Also if we don't have the hammer, and we won't, we have to watch the prelude of light cutscene.
Btw. you do always need a buttload of sticks.
1. aqua escape
2. slide to kakariko
3. slide to market
Pretty sure without the two last slides you can't make it before dusk to the market.
Edit: Hmm I actually did just get an idea how we could get that whole light arrow B thing to work. Probably not for the new route, but for the old one. Meet me in the chat. ;)
I actually do have an idea how to fix this. But it's really out there.
1. Get well chus as a child. (take the shield in botw) You are in Kakariko anyway. This takes ~2:30
2. Get bottle (collect the rest of the cuccos). On the way out collect bugs.
3. Go to Gerudo Fortress, get odd mushroom.
4. Save warp, then do swordless dot skip
5. As you have cojiro you can now go directly to lon lon, get bottle B and RBA it. Getting pocket egg and pocket cucco is skipped.
This sounds like it would be a lot slower, but it might actually work. Not totally sure, tbh.
The chus should speed you up in quite a few places, so that is also to be considered...
Things to consider here:
From exiting castle town to getting cojiro bloob takes about 6 minutes.
The well takes about 2:30.
About all the rest I'm very uncertain.
I thought about it a little and sadly I don't see this saving more than ~30s.
True you do skip ever going to the fishing pond and lon lon ranch is closer, but there is a limiting factor, which is the cucco egg.
It needs to be hatched before you get back to Kakariko.
Thus you'll have to wait a little in front of Kakaiko with this route.
Now the egg hatched before Bloob made it to Kakariko in his TAS, so there is some time savings. On the other hand you have to talk to Ingo to ride the horses and he has quite a bit of text.
So this might even save less than 30s.
It certainly would be advisable to use the japanese version if this route is used...
Edit: This might actually be slower. Not having a sword will slow you down as a kid quite a bit and going to the shop eats the time not getting the sword saves.
Edit2: Yeah this is slower. From the time the egg hatches bloob needs 16 seconds to Kakariko. Plus 20s in the fishing pond (including scene transition time) that is 36s.
Time doesn't move in the Lon Lon ranch so every second in there counts against hatch time. Accordingly you would have to stay under these 36s for it to be faster. But Ingo has a lot of not skipable text and you have to play the riding game one and a half times. No way that can be done in under 36 seconds.
:(
Ah yeah. EMS ftw.
So ok if we can somehow get midna to stfu we would skip the twilight and half of forest temple. Pretty unlikely, since a lot of people tried already, but can't hurt to try again. :D
Also... I'm not a hardware modification (or laser for that matter) expert, but isn't it theoretically possible for someone to modify or swap their gamecube's laser to have a resistance of 2 or 1 ohm? I know there's a "no hardware modifications" policy at SDA, but what's stopping someone from changing that 66 ohm down to a 55 ohm? That person could blame their "fast" load times on someone else's just being "slow".
There is a potentiometer you can turn that changes the resistance of the laser, or rather the energy that is fed to the laser, which makes it stronger or weaker. (Sometimes it's kind of hard for me to express myself in english.)
Modders used to lower that resistance to get the cube to read burned discs that's how I know the value of my cube. I never had to change it, since I just used good media and a good burner, but I measured it non the less when I isntalled the modchip.
moozooh wrote:
Again, there is no original hardware for an emulator. There is emulated hardware. What you choose to emulate is as good as original for you.
Ok I choose not to emulate load times. Thus it's as good as original. Problem solved!
If a laser's resistance (wait, a laser's resistance? What exactly is resistance being measured on here?) deteriorates with time, as your data seems to suggest, then a model piece of hardware is obviously the one with no significant deterioration. Which means, as I already suggested, that durations should be measured on newest, least used models available, and averaged out. That way it will be closest to the model hardware's behavior. If there were different revisions of the Gamecube that had different hardware upon release, then the emulation should be adjustable to match all of the revisions, like it's done in, say, Amiga emulators.
It's the energy fed to the laser. I was a little bit unclear there. And no the resistance value stays the same over the gamecubes life. It doesn't deteriorates.
Gamecubes produced later will have a lower resistance. Nintendo probably thought those won't have to last as long thus they could just crank up the current. This will give them less warenty cases because of "disc read error"s. Once the laser fails the cbe will be out of arrenty anyway and nobody will play that thing anymore, so there won't be any outcry in the press. (well that's my speculation on that part, anyway)
It doesn't matter what people expect. At all.
Really?! I remember countless arguements that were based in "pople know the gams this way, so we should give them to them this way, damn it!!!!!!"
The games language comes to mind here.
What matters is getting it close to how the hardware is supposed to work when you unpack it in the store.
Yeah, except for the quadrillions time: There is no "supposed to" when it comes to loading times. There is an average, but no consant, so you can't emulate constants, like with the cycles on the SNES or something. It's just not possible.
You might as well use the Nintendo Kiosk System (or child hospital system) as reference, load the game from a harddrive with no loading times at all, except the initial ones.
That's also how it's "supposed to work".
God I wish I had had space for quotation marks in the thread title...
I feel you're just being lazy here. If you're emulating PS1, PS1's load speed is standard. If you're emulating PS2, and are feeding a PS1 disc to it, PS2's load speed is standard. Why would you consider otherwise? An emulator should be able to accomplish all of that accurately.
You completely missed my point, which was: What in this case is considered "original hardware". Is it the PS1 or the PS2? The PS2 was sold A LOT more than the PS1 and almost everybody did play classic PS1 games on it. So isn't that the hardware and load times most people know and expect?
The Wii doesn't have the same problem, since it slows down the drive in GC mode. (maybe this little fact also answers petries metroid question) Otherwise there would be the same problem.
Please understand, emulation isn't about setting some kind of standard or a convention to follow, it's about making a piece of software behave like a model piece of hardware would, or as close to it as possible. Purposefully making an emulator perform differently from the system it emulates also makes it stop being an emulator.
Only there is no "model piece of hardware" here. There is a wide range, as we have discussed already. My GCs laser has a resistance of 337 Ohm. There ware some that had a resistance of over 500 Ohm.
The last GC models that were made had one of under a 100 Ohm. I know of one that had 66.
Will they read discs at the same speed? Hell no. The ones with the higher resistance will have to reread a lot more. The ones with the lower resistance will burn out a lot quicker, but they will also load a lot faster.
"Here at TASVideos, we strive to push games to their limits. The emulators we use allow for undoing mistakes, slow-motion gameplay, and even in some cases utilizing robots to do our bidding.
Using these tools, we overcome human limitations to complete games with extremely high precision, entertaining our viewers as our players tear through games at seemingly impossible speeds. The end result of this process is simply a series of key-presses which can be performed on the original hardware."
From the TASVideos about page. The entire point of this website was to show how games can be played if human reflexes and mistakes were not a factor, not how games can be played if things that are part of the game are removed (through inaccurate emulation).
But load times will be different between different GCs, Wiis, etc. There is no one "load time" it always differs. So it will never be like on a real console, since in this instant there is no one real console, there are a million different ones.
There are differences in the resistance of the laser, slight drive speed differences, how scratched or dirty the discs are, etc.
For PS1 games there is even the option to load them faster in the PS2. So what is the standard speed here?
Regarding the portion you highlighted: the end result will still be "simply a series of key-presses which can be performed on the original hardware." just with less load time.
Toothache wrote:
I think the idea is simple. We want to move away from the idea that TASing is cheating, and since it is now possible to playback input files on a real console, we should strive for emulator accuracy as much as possible, else it can be seen as cheating by having the emulator run much faster than the actual console could allow. This is why all the runs on faster snes9x versions, for example, should be obsoleted by runs on more accurate emulators in the future, even if they are slower in terms of real time.
Like I said above, there is no "acurate" in CD/DVD loading. You will never get a TAS to sync on a real system, unless you somehow created it on that particlar console.
And in the case of Snes9x we are talking about acurately emulating play-time. Here we are talking about "kinda matching up" wait time. I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. One should be as close to a real console as possible, since a lot of the enjoyment comes from that fact, the other is just boring nothingness.
PS: Thank you all for having a civil conversation, even though I started this thread totally sleep deprived, which caused me to not use the best tone...
BiT can't work with a hard reset. It means turning power off and on again. Which means RAM is cleared.
Well faron twilight is the longer one anyway. Would be cool if there was some way around it.
