Even when you set the bomb before hand?
I sadly don't know how to count frames but when you press A directly after a shot the bow is away pretty much instantly.
I like the idea with the chu it's just that the fight seems pretty slow this way...
I don't think you can put the bow away any faster than with A. (that is extremely fast if you do it right after shooting)
I think the best course of action would be to stop shooting for a moment, lay a bomb down, do the final shots and than HISS of that bomb.
Ok just for convinience I'll copy the routs together. I think we should allways have a complete copy of the route. And hey we got it before page 100! XD
First Cycle
get 2r at the very beginning on your sidehop route to the wooden stumps (2r)
hear grandmas storys twice and dance with the scarecrow, deposit the 2r
get to ECT, do a full run through termina field to WCT (101r)
get to ECT, get fairy, do half a run through termina field to NCT, get 99r from 36 bushes, get magic, deposit the rupees (200r)
get to clock tower, wait for 12 O'clock, get ocarina and SoT, timetravel
Second Cycle
Hit CT Owl, Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (70R) (20B) (20C)
ISG-ISS to Fence, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, Hover over Fence with Bomb and Chu, SS to GB (17B) (19C)
ISS to Water, Hit Owl, Get Zora Mask, Leaver Slide to South Bay (16B) (19C)
Flying Zora to Fountain, Blow up Rock with Chu, Play SoDT (at least somewhere around here), New Fairy Fountain Strat (12B) (10C)
SS to Owl, Hit Owl, 5 Bombs from Plant, Recoil Flip with Bomb down to River, Swim to Swamp, Go to Lost Woods, Get 10 Rupees, ISS from Bombchu, Get Bottle (15B) (9C)
ISS to Octo, Sidehops to Deku Palace, ISG-ISS past Deku Guards, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, Use old Zora Jump Strat, Get Sonata + SoS (11B) (9C)
Get 3 Deku sticks from Dekus and 1 Deku Stick from pot on the way to Woodfall Temple, Enter Temple
Mega Flips past Gap, Kill Lizarfos with Jumpslash Strat, Get Bow (9B) (8C)
Recoil Flip to get OoB, 8 Mega Flips, Kill Odolwa (1B) (0C)
Warp to CT, Buy 20 Chus, Leave to GB (0R) (1B) (20C)
HISS to bush, Megaflip of the blob down the ledge, ISS to other Bush, Get 20 Bombs + 20 Rupees, HISS of red blob to Milk Road, ISG-ISS to Rock, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, 3 Bombchu Hovers, SS to Epona, Get Bottle (20R) (17B) (17C)
Warp to GB, Swim to Pirate's Fortress, Mega Flip past Gap, Get Hookshot, Zora Egg, Recoil Flip with Bomb to second Zora Egg, Deposit Eggs (14B) (16C)
Back to Pirate's Fortress, Skip Pirate Battle with 4 Bomb Hovers + 2 Mega Flips, Skip second Pirate Battle with Recoil Flip from Bomb, Deposit Eggs, Get rest of Zora Eggs, Learn NWBN (7B) (15C)
Play Zora Pots Game one time + get 10 Bombs from Stone + get 1/4 heart damage from leaves, Go to South Bay Owl, Get 5 Bombs, Enter GBT (110R) (20B) (15C)
Mega Flip past Gap, HISS, Boss Key Skip with Bomb Staircase + 1 Bomb Hover + 2 Mega Flips, Kill Gyorg, Get 5 Bombs from pot (17B) (11C)
Get back to GBFF, Fairy Fountain Wrong Warp with new Strat, ISG-ISS up to Snowhead Temple (12B) (3C)
Block Skip, Bomb Long Jump Strat with Damage ISS from Bomb to blow up ice enemy, Scarecrow Song Skip, 1 Recoil flip with Bomb + Recoil Flip with Bombchu, Beat Wizrobe Infinite Deku Stick from Bomb Damage, Get Fire Arrows, Hookshot to Torch (8B) (2C)
Hookshot other Torch, Mega Flip past Gap, HISS strategy with Bomb for Snowballs (5B) (1C)
Mega Flip past Gap, Boss Key Skip, Kill Goth, HISS over to Warp Zone (1B) (0C)
Get 5 Bombs from plant, Warp to CT, Buy 20 Chus + 10 Bombs, Warp to Ikana, Pull out Bomb while walking to plant, Get 5 Bombs, ISS up to Stone Tower (20B) (20C)
Climb Stone Tower with Mega Flips, enter ST (10B) (13C)
Bomb Staircase + Sidehop strategy past Sun Block, Get small key and minimize Magic Meter, so you can only use 4 Fire Arrows anymore (8B) (9C)
Bomb Staircase + Zora Grab Trick past Sun Block, Get 10 Bombs from enemys + 3/4 Heart Damage from enemy, Recoil Flips in Updraft Room, Kill Garo's Master with Infinte Deku Stick from Bomb, Death Warp (12B) (6C)
Inverted Stone Tower with Mega Flip, Bomb Long Jump past first room, Boss Key Skip, Kill Twimmold with Fire Arrow Strat (5B) (1C)
Warp to CT, Use new strat for Clock Tower early (2B) (0C)
SS to Kid, Kill 1+2 Cycle of Majora normally, Kill 3rd Cycle of Majora with Infinite Deku Stick from Bomb (0B) (0C)
bkDJ wrote:
about goht... why do you have to kill him with an arrow? if you (HI)SS over to him couldn't the sword deal damage? and if it has to be an arrow maybe it's faster to shoot while backflipping than to shoot in 1st person.
I'm to 99,9999999999% sure that Goth just runs away when you slide over to him. But even if he didn't, a jumpslash does 2 points of damage and so do arrows. So what would be the point?
hmm, getting frozen cost some time, but it allows you to skip one wizrobe cycle, what should be 1-2 seconds faster, but if I think about it again, it takes some time until wizrobe shoots the ice spirit at you, which eliminates all the saved time again ;)
Well as long as it doesn't loose us time it's still good. We need to use the infinite Deku Stick if we want to use sticks in the Garo Master and Majora battle, since we just won't have enough otherwise.
we don't mega hover over to the snowballs
that's a million times slower and costs more explosive
Well if you hookshot yourself to the torch that is to the right of te torch you use to hookshot yourself up there and megaflip from there it should save explosives and not take that much longer. You could than use the gained explosives to gain speed elsewhere. For example you could get one less bomb drop in GB and/or use a bombchu instead of a bom in the bridge room to do the recoil flip.
Swordless Link wrote:
Slowking: That's an excellent idea about the rupees. And yes, I'll be posting regular WIPs, at least until a certain point, maybe halfway through or something. I'll be starting it soon, maybe tonight.
That's good to hear. ^^
EDIT: Grunz: I noticed your number of deku sticks didn't go down on the first three hits in the Wizrobe battle. Does this mean I won't have to collect as many sticks in Woodfall?
As far as I can see his Deku sticks allways go down when he uses them. When they don't go down he uses the sword and swings the sticks around just for show.
Maybe well get the infinite Deku stick to work, but even then we will need 4 sticks and that's the number you are going to collect in woodfall in any case.
EDIT 2: I wonder if we could set up a superslide right before killing Goht, so that we could roll into the bomb right before the last arrow hit and superslide over to the mask during the cutscene. No idea if this will work, it's just a theory. We should look into it, though.
That would certainly be very cool.
Edit:
Can you see what Link is holding here: http://home.arcor.de/slowking/tas/wizrobe_infinite.jpg :D
I'm not exactly sure how I got it to work. I have two theories:
1. I hit the platform wizrobe stands on and after that (with the same swing) wizrobe so the stick stays.
2. I get frozen shortly after the stick breaks and thus the broken stick stays.
Well no matter how it happened, it shows that it's possible. And with Garo Master and ans the 2nd or 3rd Majora Phase it should be even easier, since you can manipulate them to stand near a wall and then just use the strat I've shown in the video I uploaded to youtube. ^^
Edit:
Got it working again, this time by being frozen shortly after breaking the stick: http://home.arcor.de/slowking/tas/wizrobe_infinite2.jpg
As far as I can see you are not doing it like we are going to do it in the TAS. You don't get the bomb drop in the beginning and you don't mega hover over to the snowballs from the bridge across from them.
But on it's own this is a very nice TAS. ^^
SL, a suggestion for the first cycle:
Since we only do one and a half runs through Termina Field we should have quite some time left untill 12 o'clock. So you can just get rupees from the bushes past the NCT entrance and go back there without loosing time. That gives you 36 bushes, so you won't have to kill yourself over the luck manipulation and it reduces the time we have to wait for 12 o'clock, so it's a win win situation. ^^
Btw. do you think you will restart soon and are we going to see WIPs or are you not going to give those out this time around?
And we only get 4 Deku sticks. We can use sticks with 3 bosses, which means even if we get the infinite stick to work we would need those 4 sticks anyway. (you allways have to have one stick left to be able to swing them)
We'll try to get it to work but it doesn't change anything on the general route. It's just that if we can make it work bosses will go down a little faster, if we can't they won't...
hmm, there's that deku stick mistake in the route and you forgot to add one improvement.
Hmm I don't find it at the moment. probably to late...
ok, improvement:
get 10 bombs before zora pots game and use the extra bombs for bomb long jump room strat and blowing up the last snowball while sliding up to snowhead
the 1/2 damage from the bridge room also allows you to skip 1/2 damage from the gyorg fight, what could speed that battle up
Bombs edited. though not where they are used... maybe you should just repost the route with the fixes. That should be the easiest cause of action.
and is the SS over to epona needed or can you simply sidehop? if sidehopping is too slow, use HISS from alien
this could skip the extra bomb drop before the pots game, but it seems that the bomb drop saves more time, then it actually costs
even if we get the bomb drop, you should use HISS from alien, if possible, because it's so damn cool
That SS is extremely needed. That's a far far way. Just get the additional drop...
The aliens are also far to close to the barn to be used at this point.
we have only 4 deku sticks, so you have to decide, which battle costs more time, if you doesn't use a deku stick.
all I can say is, that garo's master only needs 3 deku sticks and 1 jumpslash, so you just have to decide, where to use the left stick.
We can still try to get the infinite deku stick to work. Otherwise yes, we have to decide.
I also have a great idea for the bridge room!
if we use bomb long jump, place a bomb next to the ice enemy and when you move away, the bomb explodes, so roll away after placing bomb and do a HISS from it :D
this would be way to awesome, if it turns out to be possible and faster
Ok now it's official, you have to repost the route with the fixes and improvements.
Ok final route heavily copied from MrGrunzs route (with 1-2 improvements we discussed on ICQ)
First Cycle
get 2r right after you get turned into a Deku (2r)
hear grandmas storys twice and dance with the scarecrow, deposit the 2r
get to ECT, do a full run through termina field to WCT (101r)
get to ECT, get fairy, do a half run through termina field to NCT, get 99r, get magic, deposit the rupees (200r)
Second Cycle
Hit CT Owl, Withdraw 200R, Buy Bomb Bag + 20 Chus (70R) (20B) (20C)
ISG-ISS to Fence, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, Hover over Fence with Bomb and Chu, SS to GB (17B) (19C)
ISS to Water, Hit Owl, Get Zora Mask, Leaver Slide to South Bay (16B) (19C)
Flying Zora to Fountain, Blow up Rock with Chu, Play SoDT (at least somewhere around here), New Fairy Fountain Strat (12B) (10C)
SS to Owl, Hit Owl, 5 Bombs from Plant, Recoil Flip with Bomb down to River, Swim to Swamp, Go to Lost Woods, Get 10 Rupees, ISS from Bombchu, Get Bottle (15B) (9C)
ISS to Octo, Sidehops to Deku Palace, ISG-ISS past Deku Guards, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, Use old Zora Jump Strat, Get Sonata + SoS (11B) (9C)
Get 3 Deku sticks from Dekus and 1 Deku Stick from pot on the way to Woodfall Temple, Enter Temple
Mega Flips past Gap, Kill Lizarfos with Jumpslash Strat, Get Bow (9B) (8C)
Recoil Flip to get OoB, 8 Mega Flips, Kill Odolwa (1B) (0C)
Warp to CT, Buy 20 Chus, Leave to GB (0R) (1B) (20C)
HISS to bush, Megaflip of the blob down the ledge, ISS to other Bush, Get 20 Bombs + 20 Rupees, HISS of red blob to Milk Road, ISG-ISS to Rock, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, 3 Bombchu Hovers, SS to Epona, Get Bottle (20R) (17B) (17C)
Warp to GB, Swim to Pirate's Fortress, Mega Flip past Gap, Get Hookshot, Zora Egg, Recoil Flip with Bomb to second Zora Egg, Deposit Eggs (14B) (16C)
Back to Pirate's Fortress, Skip Pirate Battle with 4 Bomb Hovers + 2 Mega Flips, Skip second Pirate Battle with Recoil Flip from Bomb, Deposit Eggs, Get rest of Zora Eggs, Learn NWBN (7B) (15C)
Play Zora Pots Game one time + get 10 Bombs from Stone + get 1/4 heart damage from leaves, Go to South Bay Owl, Get 5 Bombs, Enter GBT (110R) (17B) (15C)
Mega Flip past Gap, Boss Key Skip with Bomb Staircase + 2 Bomb Hovers + 2 Mega Flip, Kill Gyorg + 1 Heart damage from Gyorg, Get 5 Bombs from pot (14B) (12C)
Get back to GBFF, Fairy Fountain Wrong Warp with new Strat, ISG-ISS up to Snowhead Temple (9B) (4C)
Block Skip, Azorae's Bridge Room Strat, Scarecrow Song Skip, Beat Wizrobe with 2 Arrows and 2 Deku Sticks, Get Fire Arrows, Hookshot to Torch (7B) (4C)
3 Bomb Hover + 1 Bombchu Hover to Snowballs, Bomb + Fire Arrow + 1/2 damage from Bomb, Strategy to Blow Up Snowballs (3B) (3C)
Mega Flip past Gap, Boss Key Skip, Kill Goth by ISS over to perfect shoot position (0B) (0C)
Get 5 Bombs from plant, Warp to CT, Buy 20 Chus + 10 Bombs, Warp to Ikana, Pull out Bomb while walking to plant, Get 5 Bombs, ISS up to Stone Tower (19B) (20C)
Climb Stone Tower with Mega Flips, enter ST (9B) (13C)
Bomb Staircase + Sidehop strategy past Sun Block, Get small key and minimize Magic Meter, so you can only use 4 Fire Arrows anymore (7B) (9C)
Bomb Staircase + Zora Grab Trick past Sun Block, Get 10 Bombs from enemys + 3/4 Heart Damage from enemy, Recoil Flips in Updraft Room, Kill Garo's Master with 4 Deku Sticks, Death Warp (12B) (6C)
Play SoS, Inverted Stone Tower with Mega Flip, Bomb Long Jump past first room, Boss Key Skip, Kill Twimmold with Fire Arrow Strat (5B) (1C)
Warp to CT, Use new strat for Clock Tower early, SS to Kid, Kick ass of Majora's Mask, EPIC WIN (1B) (0C)
So SL what do you think?
We could also always revisit the idea of of paying for more bombs. One Zora game more and one more bank transfare add up to 17s seconds but I have the feeling at the moment, that all those bomb drops also add up. For example stones aren't the fastest way to get items as you have to throw them first...
Those 17 seconds extra would mean 6 less drops we have to get...
What do you think?
OK in german:
Ich hab mal ein video gemacht: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZF_P9DB-ho&fmt=18
Im großen und ganzen basiert das ganze darauf, dass du den Dekustick abbrichst, den Schwung aber nicht zuende führen kannst, sodass der Stick nicht weggeschmissen wird. Das passiert indem du nach dem Abrruch noch etwas anderes triffst (wie in den ersten beiden beispielen im Video) oder aber das du in der zwischenzeit getroffen wirst, wie bei den Dodongos. jedenfalls gehe ich bei den Dodongos davon aus, dass das der Grund ist, könnte aber vielleicht auch ein anderer sein. Probiers einfach selbst mal aus. ^^
Falls du sonst noch fragen hast meine ICQ-Nummer: 92797148
Nur bitte in die Bestätigungsanfrage schreiben wer du bist, ich lass nicht jeden zu. :D
Zoragame am Anfang: Ich denk einfach es kann nichts schaden und ich denke es ist etwas besser gelegen für zur Fountain schwimmen als später wenn wir zum Tempel schwimmen.
Das wir nach dem tempel normal zur fountain schwimmen ist klar und ich hab ja auch schon gesagt, dass das wirklich der Schnellste Weg sein dürfte.
afaik you respawn where you came in when you swim out and besides the way would be far to long.
And I think playing the game at the beginning is better since it let's us choose our bomb drops more freely.
There is at least no downside as far as I can see.
The platform we land on with the flying Zora has also stones. Are there bombs in them?
I don't think getting a bomb drop after GBT from the bushes takes much time. After the temple yyou get warped there...
If going back to GBFF is a good idea would have to be timed out. Sure it saves a song of SoS but the swim takes some time... nice thing is we have the hookshot at this point, so entering shouldn't be a problem...
Edit: But yeah in the end it's probably faster. If you use the FF in woodfall you have to switch a lot of items around and deku-fly and stuff.
Maybe we should think about playing the Zora game before doing the first FFWW again. We have enough space for the money from one game and we have to play the SoDT later anyway, since woodfall is now slightly longer.
If we do it then we can spead our money better acros the route...
MrGrunz wrote:
can you tell me, what you did in your testings for this trick?
Edit: sorry what was here before was me not understanding you correctly.
To get a broken deku stick I basically just smashed the button they are on. I got it to work with the Owl and Dogongos. It didn't work with normal walls. So maybe it has something to do with the recoil you get from those or that taya locks in on them...
But I'm pretty sure as long as the enemy is big enough you can get the broken stick if you press the c-button they are on again after a specific frame.
Edit: Oh and just now I got it to work on a big stone (those which cover holes in the ground an can be blown up) I guess it works on everything that isn't as solid as a rock wall...
Edit: OK now it even worked on a wall. XD
The easies way is certainly when you hit something and hit something after it through the recoil. In this case you don't even have to hit the C button again...
Maybe that's even the whole trick and I allways got it by accident. you have to hit something while being recoiled by the first hit.
Where it works every time is in GB between the rock and the wall...
Also I think if you take damage when link is swinging the stick back you get the broken stick.
To sum things up after my 1000 edits:
Once the stick is broken link throws it away with a swing. If the swing is interrupted by hitting another thing or taking damage, Link will keep the broken stick. (though I think it has to be damage that gives you recoil. fire doesn't work)
I'm pretty sure that when you TAS it the Takkuri doesn't take much longer than 15 seconds.
A Zora game takes 7 seconds, the detour you have to go is quite consideribly. Furthermore you dont get enough money of it. more money = less bomb drops you have to get (I know it's not that much since we only come back to CT once after this but still)
you can get 2x blue rupees from the bushes at the beginning (or end for that matter) of the woods of mistery. Shouldn't take to much time. You can combine it with waiting for the bomb to explode at the beginning (if you would use a chu here it's slightly slower but not by much)
I agree that SL can restart, as there is one thing we know for sure and that is that we only need 200r in the first cycle, since we have a lot of big and fast potential rupee sources on the way (Takkuri, 4x Zora game etc.)and we are minimizing bank-transfares.
However I think we still have to fine-tune a few things in the route...
MrGrunz wrote:
Here's the final route with a Death Warp out of Stone Tower:
I really hate deathwarps but I guess it can't be helped.
SoDT when you are 9 and a half in-game hours away from the Ranch houses
That won't work since woodfall is now longer. Let's say directly before or after the FFWW to inkana.
Flying Zora to Fountain, Blow up Rock with Chu, New Fairy Fountain Strat (12B) (10C)
Are you still working on your other FF-glitch? Do you still think it's possible? If so we really ought to know. And it would be nice if you told us what it is and how it's supposed to work. ;)
Get 3 Deku sticks from Dekus and 1 Deku Stick from pot on the way to Woodfall Temple
We sill need to check out if we can reduce this number with broken sticks.
Warp to CT, Buy 20 Chus, Leave to GB (0R) (1B) (20C)
ISG-ISS to bush, Get 15 Bombs, Jump down ledge, ISS to other Bush, Get 10 Bombs + 20 Rupees, ISG-ISS to Rock, Pull out Bomb while Sliding, 3 Bombchu Hovers, SS to Epona, Get Bottle (20R) (17B) (17C)
Can't you somehow save one bomb before this? It would really save quite some time if you would just megaflip over the ledge out of a HISS and get all of your new bombs out of the bushes down there.
Also we could still get the 10r in the woods of mystery and buy some more bombs, so we don't have to get this much drops and can megaflip over the ledge. Should still be faster.
And we are still not clear how long killing the Takkuri actually take. It could very well be that it takes about as long as the detour we have to take for the zora game and the extra rupees could be used to buy bombs instead of getting bombs.
This route really isn't a 100% planned through yet and I don't like that you are trying to sell it to us as such. ;)
SL and petrie what do you think about the route so far?
Well if we do it this way let's say we loose 10 seconds in SHT due to missing speedtricks with chus, 10 in PF due missing speedtricks with chus and 6 seconds in GBT due to the bomb hovers, it still comes out far ahead of making a trip to the bomb shop...
If you can get us those 2 explosives elsewhere it would be even better, ofcourse ;)
Furthermore we now need a lot less moneys. so it's probably faster again to just do one Zora game before doing the FFWW and not killing the Takkuri...
Edit: But ofcourse the question is how long does the Takkuri actually take to kill and would the extra money save us time not getting bomb-drops?
MrGrunz, if you have some time left today, could you maybe TAS my Takkuri-strat? I would really like to know. Pretty please?
Get Bomb drop by tree, Recoil Flip down to River, Swim to Swamp (17B)
Here the question is if the tree bombdrop or a bombdrop from the skulltullas in woodfall would be faster...
Exit via WCT, slide to grass near cliff, get 4 bomb drops, kill bird for 200R and slide into Milk Road (19B) (200R)
Well I still stand by my new Takkuri strat where we megaflip over the cliff, slide to the next bushes, get our bomb drops from there and shoot the Takkuri from this place. That's one less sliding interruption.
I think the biggest question now is: could we get away with doing PF, GBT and SHT in one go, without Chu refilling?
That would be really huge, since refilling alone takes about a minute and then you have to have the money to do it...
Let's see the number of Chus we minimaly need:
- 3c to enter the ranch (though maybe we could substitute one for a bomb if this way turns out to be faster) (17c)
- 2c to enter PF twice. I don't think we really need Chus in there (15c)
- 5c to do the GBT bosskey skip. Do we need any before in GBT? Well azorae has 7c for GBT, so let's take this number (8c)
- FFWW to SHT (0c)
- SHT (-2c)
So at the moment we have 2c to little to do this but if we can save those we would be good to go. ^^
Maybe you could save one at the FFWW through a triple staircase and substitute one chu at the ranch entrance for a chu...
