Well later in the run you won't have to activate the turtle owl as you can go straight to the temple and don't have to return there ever. But I know what you mean. Well at least we should be able to time this one pretty fast.
It might also come down to if we need more rupees, at the point when we are ready to enter the water tempel, or not. If we do the fastest way is to play the zora-bottle-gae and thus not activating the owl it is.
Btw. might it not be a good idea to get the beaver bottle as the 3rd bottle after you got the hookshot or am I missign something?
Edit: I edited my last post a little, not knowing that I allready had an answer, sorry.
Very nice. This would require no explosives at all.
In this case you probably wouldn't activate the Zora owl however, as it would be to much of a detour, which reduces the time-gain a little, as you will have to make the way from the observatory to the zoras once more, once you are going to the water tempel...
Edit: Hmm after checking again I'm not even sure anymore if activating the Zora owl will give you a significant speed advantage. You have to get there and you have to get back and you can't collect more rupees at the Zora game on the way to the tempel if needed...
But if it would be faster maybe you could use the head of the sleeping turtle to activate the glitch?
I thought about it, it was just includet in the "hoover time". :D
But on the other hand: You should be able to water-jump with the Zora to the nearest platform and from there it shouldn't take to much bombs. Maybe you can even staricase your way with normal bombs.
I'm away for a few weaks and new major glitches get discovered. typical. XD
I know my ideas didn't work that well in the past, but there is a german saying "Auch ein blindes Huhn findet mal ein Korn" (everybody has got to be right sometimes), so I'll try again. :D
I'm not sure if this will really save time, probably not, but it could and then I would feel bad for not mentioning it before the run, so here it goes:
-- First cycle --
as normal
-- Second cycle --
get zora mask
activate observatory owl
activate zora owl
get from great bay fairy to inkana
activate owl
jump into the river with the zora mask
swim to the witches and get their bottle
proceed as normal
saves:
way to inkana
way to the swamp
ads:
1-2 warps
money gathering for bombs/chus and buying them
hoover time
Also, about your proposed route from before. Hookshot>Beaver race doesn't work due to the whole Bottle>Hookshot requirement.
At that point you would have one bottle in any case. Either the witches bottle (with the normal route) or the goron bottle (with the deku palace first route). And you only need one bottle to get the hookshot, so I don't see the problem. The only question that remains is if it would really be faster than the Romani bottle.
I think this part of the new route is still debateable:
petrie911 wrote:
Get Goron Mask, warp to CT, buy 20c more*
Ranch time
Head to Great Bay. Double time when dawn breaks
Zora Mask, Hookshot, first egg
Snowhead
Gold Dust
It might still be a good idea to do Snowhead directly after getting the Goron mask. Let's look at it:
Saves:
- two warps and one owl activation
- a trip to the bomb shop
- collecting rupes through a second trip through termina field or ECT chest (and a trip back to the bank as you re there to to deposit the 12r anyway, because you have to talk to the scarecrow)
Looses:
- collecting 12r before first getting to CT
- bombing up the spikeroom in Snowhead instead of using the hookshot
- a few other parts in there where having the hookshot or chus would be faster.
- Bombing yourself into the Goron racing with only bombs
I give you that doing snowhead without the hookshot and only with bombs sounds slower but collecting money, 2x warping and bombshop take quite some time and the alternative might just be faster.
I think before you can compare anything else the first thing that needs to be compared is which way snowhead would be afster (I mean with everything that is attached to it, ofcourse)
Furtherore it's not even clear if it would be late enough for romani if you would do snowhead after.
Btw, just for my information:
Woodfall can never be the first temple to be completed because Taya will attack you with an expositional onslaught if it is, right?
If you were to do Deku Palace first (I know it's still not very clear which route is the fastest) you would have to use Goronrolling in Snowhead and end up here: http://home.arcor.de/slowking/rauskomm-goronrolling.jpg
Could you shoot the Snowball on the other side with a fire arrow and then use this http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=x7uV-P34_yc to get over there? I don't know if the jump would be far enough, but if it is it should save some time...
And for both routes:
I don't know if it's allready known, but you can glitch through here as seen here.
That should save some time after the second time you fought Zaurob as you won't have to get those 4 snowballs out of the way.
2. When getting past the Zora king guy, why was a superflip necessary? It is possible to get into that wall with a corner swordslash which, due to not having to wait for the bomb to blow up, may be faster
I didn't know it was possible to jumpslash through there, but that would almost certainly be faster.
Yep it is shield-blockable (I allways found that funny, since it explodes in your face XD ). But it's not like you just have it. You would have to be in NCT at midnight of the first day, catch the thief, watch him run of (for somebody who has just been poked with a swords he takes an awfull lot of time) and talk to the old lady. In this time you can burn about 30 bombs and most of the hovering has allready been done by midnight of day one. (except Inkana)
The bomb mask takes a long time to recharge after you used it. I'm pretty sure it even takes longer than a normal bomb to explode, so it probably doesn't warrant the time it takes to get it.
(But to be honest I forgot this, too, untill I played the game again recently)
Edit:
Yeah the mask takes 15 seconds, a normal bomb takes 3,5s. The mask could maybe be used on the beginning and end of a bombing to reduce the crunch and time, but it takes some time to get it and you would have to be in clock town at midnight of the first day. To 99% not worth it.
Argh...
On the other hand I believe there is a trip less to the bombshop on this route and no second trip through termina field or a trip to ECT chest. That also saves time. Though I could be wrong, I really don't know exactly how your currently planed route looks like...
And the spike-room really doesn't look that high to me. Did you try it from the wooden crates with grabbing the ledge above the spikes?
And I keep finding flaws in the route. >.< On the second day the shop-witch goes looking for her sister in the woods. now she is not far in, it might even be faster to get to her this way, but you have to endure a 15s cutscene...
Edit:
Btw. has it ever been tested if the beaver bottle could be faster than the romani one? I mean shooting the ghosts takes quite some time and you have to get on the ranch in time (which requires playing the dong two times) and you have to bomb your way in. The beavers aren't that far out of the way once you have the hookshot...
Didn't you make a video on how to beat them really fast?
Edit:
Ah yes I found your video. Mukki took 2:51 from entering the ranch to completing the task. But I guess that you still have to play the slow-down-song twice to get there at just the right moment? If so that ads another 30 seconds. Now let's say that Mukkis time can be iproved a little by getting there a little bit later. So let's say it takes 2:45 + 0:30 = 3:15.
Your run with the beavers on the first day comes down to about the same. So the question is where can you get faster Romani or the beavers?
Now Romani Ranch is near CT but you have to bomb yourself in and it's completely out of the way of everything else.
The beavers are sort of on the way to the Zoras but it would mean a lot of hookshooting. So I really don't know.
proposed route:
- get zora mask
- activate owl at the laboratory
- get hookshot
- warp back to the laboratory (or do something in between
- get to the beavers and get the bottle from them
- jump into the river and swim to the zoras, activate the owl there
- warp wherever you need to be
The nice thing about this is, that there are ways includet you would need to go sooner or later anyway and the warp you take you would also have to take to get away from the romani ranch. the main question that remains is if it would be faster to get to romani ranch or hookshooting yourself up to the beavers.
This would be interesting for any route...
EDIT: scratch that, I think we could get away with 210 rupees, with the 200 we get from the gold dust covering the rest. Provided we get 12r by the end of Snowhead, we could actually use the 198 rupees Swordless got in his first WIP.
But this way you would never get the adault wallet. Which is a problem when you want to buy a Bombbag and two sets of Chus and when you want to get 200 for the Gold Dust. I guess getting 12r right after you get turned into a Deku would be the best course of action. Still beats a second trip through termina field or a trip to the ECT chest. You only have to get two bushes with 5r and one with 3r. The thing that will cost the most time about this is one more transaction with the banker, but well, you would have to do this anyway if you were to get another 99r.
I'm really not concerned about Snowhead being slower without the hookshot. Even if you need 8 bombs in that room, which I think can be reduced.
Let's look at it:
savings (total 102s):
- not getting the scarecrow and not summoning it (~30s) (corect me if I'm worng but you don't need the scarecrow anywhere else in the run, right?)
- loosing the cutscene in snowhead (15s)
- one warp (21s)
- one timetravel (36s)
- probably some running around, but I'm not sure
lost (total 48s):
- bombing up the spike-room (worst case) 8 * 3,5s = 28s
- rolling as a Goron instead of 2nd hookshot (worst case) 20s
So I'd say you gain about 54 seconds. Though ofcourse I could have overlooked something. But I think that would give a big enough buffer for anything uncertain.
Now let's say you need another 28 seconds to bomb yourself into the Goron racing (maybe it can be optimised a little) that still leaves a plus of 26 seconds.
Other things that are different in this run:
- getting 12r before entering clock town and depositing it: the banktransfare would have to be made anyway, as you need the adault wallet in any case and getting 12r from bushes that are right along the way beats a trip through termina field or to ECT chest by far.
- advancing time half a day: more than warrented through shorter way to the Deku Palace.
- witches bottle later: might even save time when you enter through Ikana.
- Leaves only selling the Gold dust instead of forging the gilded sword. But as I understand it you would have done this anyway in a new run.
Did I miss something?
Uh 8 hovers are a lot. Maybe a short trip to clock town to stock up on chus would actually be faster (if we have the additional money)
Edit: On the other hand: You don't have to go in the store where the scarecrow is in, you don't have to play a song for the scarecrow and watch it disapear and you have little shorter way in snowpeak and don't have to summon the scarecrow there. I think you still come out about even.
Edit: Did you try it from the wood crates at the back of the room? They are higher than the platform in the middle. Could save one bomb...
Also the ledge above the spikes is actually grabable. Should save some more bombs if you grab it instead of bombing yourself all the way up.
Furthermore I seem to remeber a trick where you lay down or throw a bomb, use Links natural jump and this way are much higher then you normally would have been. Or do I recall that wrong?
Edit: Also if you enter the main tempel through that room you save yourself the cutscene, which saves another 15 seconds. ^^ The cutscene seems to only activate when you step through the door you were ment to stept through.
But I really believe now that this route would be faster than the old one.
- you skip the way to the deku palace (bay gossip is right out of WCT)
- you save one timetravel (those travels are still longer than advancing time)
- if you get the witch-bottle after inkana temple you may even save some time here
- you probably still save some teleporting around
Hmm to know if the timing is right for the romani bottle I guess someone should make a quick test run. If he's half an hour to late, it should be about right for a real run. XD
Edit: If it's still not late enough for the Romani-bottle you can even get the hookshot before, as you now have the Goron-bottle.
Edit: Main problem I see at the moment is that in mukkis run 8 chus are used to get into the goron racing. at the moment we wouldn't have those and with bombs this would cost serious time...
Maybe getting new bombchus right before snowhead isn't such a bad idea after all. It would take one more run through termia field in the first cycle, one owl-activating, two warps, one trip to the bank and bombshop.
But it would make the way through snowpeak faster and there wouldn't be a problem with getting into the goron racing.
What do you think?
Edit: Also on an unrelated note. I found this glitch in the GameFAQs glitchlist.
14.) TIME PASSES; NOBODY MOVES
Press Start many times in a row (like more than 50 times). As the game
pauses and unpauses, time passes very, very slowly, yet nobody is
allowed to move. After a while, stop unpausing and follow some
character on a schedule, like the Postman. When he's supposed to be at
a door, mailbox, whatever, he will suddenly teleport to the spot where
he should be and do his thing.
Has anybody ever tried if this would work as "time passes; no cutscene"? If time progresses but normal events are not activated that may also apply to the cutscene at midnight of the third day.
Should be fairly easy to test for somebody with the tools to TAS...
The bay gossips are close to the WCT exit. Bay heart is right next to the fence. The gossip stone pit you refer to is the "Swamp Gossips". I can only assume what you refer to as CT gossips is the Ikana gossips, near the Observatory.
What are those gossips exactly? I assumed it were the caves where the great farys are located but from what you are saying it seems that they are the pits in termia field with the spiritual stones?
If that's the case I talked a lot of nonsense up there. ^^"
In this case you could use the bay gossip. The nice thing about Akindo is that you come out at exactly the point you need to be in the palace and I think it should be possible that you only have to climb one of the two wines.
Edit: Yes you are right bay gossip is much nearer and you are pretty much at the place you need to be. If the way in the palace can be changed a little it could even be the perfect place. http://home.arcor.de/slowking/palace-route.jpg (the red dot is where you enter the palace)
If we wait to get the witches' bottle, we have the option of getting it after Stone Tower
Yeah but I would advise getting it right after woodfall#2, as you are warped to the backside of the temple after Odolwa and thus the way to it is shorter.
Edit: Ah I forgot. If you get washed down Inkana river you come out at the witches. Yes that should actually be the fastest way.
Nice thing about this. You get there even if you fall in the warp as a goron. So you could start rolling from the place you get warped to, over the river and in the river-warp.
Mountains first is feasible, but getting out would take too long without SoS.
Well since you allready went to woodfall you could just use the warpsong to warp out.
Hmmm...difficult. As nice as it would be to warp to the Deku Palace, I can't think of a way to do it that is obviously faster. Perhaps...
Double time
wrong warp to Palace, get stuff up to Woodfall 1, back to CT
wrong warp to Lens of truth cave. Goron Mask get.
Ranch (I don't think we've taken enough time)
Hookshot
Snowhead
Race
Finish woodfall
Sell Dust (again, not enough time. Double time again?)
Ikana
Witch bottle
egg stuff
GBT
end
Well with this way you are pretty flexible, so if there has to be some time to be spent before the ranch you could most certainly do it...
Though you are right you are not that flexible... You have to be at the ranch at about 3. After woodfall#1 it will be aproximatly 9:45. Let's say getting the goron mask and maybe also activating the owl at snowpeak takes 3 hours it will still only be 12:45. That IS a problem.
I suppose you could do a few things in the bay, getting the mask, activating the owls, etc. You may loose time on additional warps.
The stuff in the bay should amount to about 1:30, plus the time it takes to get there and to the ranch, you should be there at about 3. ^^
There is also the question how much time the hookshot actually saves in snowpeak. If it doesn't do much you could just do snowpeak after woodfall #1 and the goron racing right afterwards. That would also give you time to sell the gold dust.
If you bomb your way up this room http://home.arcor.de/slowking/snowpeak-spikeroom.jpg you would be exactly where you would get with the first hookshot and you wouldn't have to play a song to the scarecrow, so I guess that would even itself out. The second time the hookshot is used it is also not major. You can get there with a little goron rolling and one additional transition. I would say it cost about 5-10 seconds.
It's really tough to say if this thing would save time or not.
This might work. We'll be using up 60 chus (240 rupees) and one bomb bag (50 rupees), which means we'll need to start the cycle with at least 290 rupees. Doable, of course, but will it be faster?
Well if you do two runs through termia field in the first cycle you have 297 rupees and it doesn't take that much more time, as part of this time would otherwise just be spent waiting.
The question if it will be faster in general ofcourse still remains
On another note, if we can get into the grave on the third night without the captain's hat, that might be a better bottle than the ranch
But that would cost 2 storys of the grandmother (including getting there) and one playing of the time-advance-song. Despite the fact that there might not be enough time to finish the game in this cycle, which would cost a timetravel.
So I can't see how this would save time. I think the romani bottle remains the only option.
Lastly, I have determined what the final unknown grotto is. It is the Hot Spring in the frozen lake. Unfortunately, it cannot be used to warp there.
Well I think it wouldn't be usefull anyway. You need the Lens of Truth, so warping to the lens of truth cave is the fastest.
Edit:
I think in conclusion the route would be now:
- advance time to evening of the first day
- activate owl, get chus and bombbag
- glitch-warp from bay gossip to the Deku Palace
- get the song
- make your way to and through woodfall#1, picking up the warpsong and activating the owl on the way.
- warp to CT, pick up chus and bombs
- glitch-warp from generic pit to lens of truth cave
- get goron mask
- do snowpeak temple (without the hookshot)
- do the goron racing
- warp to CT, sell the gold dust and stock up on Chus and bombs
- make your way to the Romani Ranch for the bottle (I hope it's late enough now)
This way you also save some warping, as you do the Goron mask, the temple and the race right after each other. I hope that makes up for the time you loose through not having the hookshot.
Also now Odolwa would be after the snowpeak temple again. So you could forge the gilded sword again. On the other hand that would cause some money problems and another trip to the ECT chest would have to be made...
Ah, yes, the hookshot. I knew there was a reason I'd completely discounted the wrong warp to Deku Palace, but I couldn't quite remember it.
I thought about it a little more. There is a way to fix it but it probably wouldn't save time. I think it would come out about even. Though you have more expirience and I would like to hear what you think.
2nd cycle:
- play the song of time in the wind (or whatever it's called in english :D ) to advance to the evening of the 1st day
- activate owl, get chus and bombbag
- go to the bay, get the Zora mask, activate owl at the institute, activate owl at the Zoras and glitch-warp from bay gossip to the deku palace
- do the palace, get the song, make your way to woodfall get the warpsong on the way
- Do woodfall #1
- warp to CT, stock up on chus
- make your way to Romani Ranch, activate the owl on the milkyway
- get the bottle
- warp back to the milkyway
- make your way to the nearest genereic cave and glitch-warp to lens of truth cave
---
- get Groron mask, hookshot (egg), do snowpeak, goron racing, etc.
- do woodfall#2 and right afterwards get the witches bottle
- proceed as normal
Now the next generic pit is a little away from the milkyway. It's hidden in the gras near the entrance to the swamp. But there is a pit with 4 spiritual-stones, spiderwebs and one big spider really near by. Sadly I can't find it on the map you posted a few pages back, so I can't see if it could be used... (It is arked here http://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda06/Maps/Field.jpg as "Gossip Pit") I can say about it that is open at the top and that there is a cave on the left which exits in termina fiield, too. I haven't tried all directions yet and even if I do it could be that I miss something. (it's really annoying that you just can't see the other pits. :D )
There is also a generic pit in the bay. As the owl is activitatat you could also use this, but I doubt that it's fast than the one in teria field.
Also noteworthy is that it will take a few bombs or chus to get up to bay gossip without the hookshot.
Yet another option ofcourse would be to use the akindo pit. for the warp to the deku palace, like you did in the demonstration video. That ofcourse wouldn't put you in the perfect position in the palace, but well, you would be pretty close...
Btw. where is that Bay Heart Pit? From there to the Magic Bean Pit could be an option, too.
Also where is the Clock Town Gossip in this system?
So now I brought up 10 different options from which probably none will save any time. ^^"
Cutscene length timing was very useful. We now know that being in the field when the tower strikes 12 is a serious time loss.
Very nice. ^^
Edit:
Yeah I'm pretty sure bay gossip would just cost time in an any%. There are just to much detours involved.
Though Akindo --> Deku Palace could save a little time. You would be definatly faster at the palace and save a time travel. The way to the witches are about the same as you don't have to roll back with this way.
If you climb the wines in the cave or get it somehow so that you don't have to climb them bt land up there, you are actually at the exact position you need to be in the deku palace. screenshot: http://home.arcor.de/slowking/palace.jpg
The question is if it would be fast enough to warrant the time lost by the played song and the bigger money crunch caused by 10 more chus.
The major problem that I overlooked is that the witches bottle is needed far earlier than I thought initially. So it won't work.
Maybe at some point somebody can make somethign of it. It yould certainly be nice to have in a run.
Why did nintendo have to put those spit-things in the direction of the Deku palace? It doesn't make any sense in a normal game run.
Sorry that I compiled a long post of rubbish, but when I was writing it I was sure it would work.
Oh well. I hope at least my timing the length of the cutscenes was of some help...
Also probably nobody will read this anyway :D , may I propose an alternate route?
- do the first cycle as normal (2x grandmother, 1x scarecrow, 99 rupees from chest, 198 rupees from two runs through termia field)
- activate owl, get money from the bank and buy chus and a bomb bag
- Wrong-warp-glitch yourself to the Deku palace ("Unknown" should work best) from Dodongo's cavern (with a bomb slide you should be there really quick from the west gate)
- Do the puzzle, get the song
- Go to woodfall temple, on the way pick up the warp-song, activate owl
- do woodfall #1
- use the warpsong to warp to Clock town
( - if needed get 100 rupees from ECT chest, if not don't :D )
- fill up on chus and bombs in WCT
- Wrong-warp-glitch to lens of truth cave from Generic Pit
- Get Lens of truth, get Groron Mask, go to Snowpeak temple and beat it (get fire arrow)
- Do the Goron race
- Warp-song to woodfall temple and do woodfall#2
- Now you'll be at the back of the temple and the water will be clean, so you can Groron roll to the witches without a problem
- Do the witches and do the rest of the speedrun as before.
Ofcourse things can be shifted around. The new fixed things would be:
- Warp-glitch to Deku Palace and make your way to and through woodfall #1, first thing in the second cycle.
- After doing wootfall #2 immediatly roll to the witches.
It would save some walking, the cutscene skip at the swamp entrance and a timetravel - you wouldn't need a third cycle.
Btw. are you going to sell the gold dust or are you going to forge the gilded sword? That is imo a major factor in this equasion.
If you were to sell the gold dust you would have more than enough money to do this.
Up untill the point I posted this route costs 210- 240 rupees. This should be covered by the Inn chest and 2x termia field from the first cycle.
So if you sell the gold dust after this, you are all set.
I think overall this way should be a little faster...
Edit:
Ok my logic is flawed. :D
Before you do snowpeak you need the hookshot and when you get the hookshot you also need a bottle to take the egg in that room with you.
If you would glitch-warp to the Deku Palace you would miss this bottle and you couldn't fix it easily as you can't even get through the poisoned swamp, as the exits are blocked by those big sptting things.
So pretty much ignore this post. ^^"
The only way to fix it would be to replace the Romani-bottle with the beaver-bottle. Would this take much longer? I mean you have to stay half a night at the romani ranch...
Edit2:
I just saw that you would need the hookshot to get to the beevers and if I remeber correctly they are way to high to bomb-hover up to them.
So ok, unless someone can figure out a way to get a bottle before getting the hookshot, this route won't work. :(
The only way I could think of is: get back to the palace, take the way you took toget to the temple, get on the roof of the skulltulla house and sidehop or roll over that spitting thing.
But the time it would tak you to do this is far ore than anything you could hope to gain. :(
Actually, during a normal cycle, the midnight cutscene only plays in SCT. However, during the first cycle, the midnight cutscene plays no matter where you are. A different one plays if you're in Termina Field, but even if you're (somehow) in STT, the scene still plays.
I guess they built it in there for when you are outside of the observatory. It would be interesting to see if one of the cutscenes is longer than the other. I suspect the one in Termia Field is longer, since it shows more stuff... (Could have impact on a second rupe-run)
Btw. after reading a few pages back again I see now, that you are probably going to sell the Gold dust, which gives you plenty of money later on, so the suggestion I made above would only cost time.
But it's really hard to keep up with what you guys have planed and thus seeing possible improvements (I'm pretty sure you have the best route possible, but the more eyes look at it the more probable it is that potential improvements are spotted). Do you have some kind of a list or Wikipage of what you are planing to do online?
Edit:
Like I thought. The cutscene in Termia Field is longer.
Clock Town Cutscene: about 31 seconds
Termia Field Cutscene about 46 seconds
So you have to be back in Clock Town by 12 or you will loose an additional 15 seconds...
At the moment it looks like you won't make it, but it's really really close, so if you can optimise a little bit somewhere it should be doable... (you take 1:55 [hours game time] to get from the banker through termia field and back in town. But after the last transaction with him you only got 1:50 left untill midnight. So you have to find a way to squeeze 5 minutes out of somewhere or you'll loose those 15 seconds... )
Though if you can't make those 5 minutes improvement: You only really need to make 42 rupes at the second run through termia field, right? You could make those and reenter clock town through the north entrance. That would add 2 transition times, but the way is shorter, so you can make up for it and you are definitely back in town for the cut scene.
Hi, this is my first post but I'm a long time fan.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you only have two rupes to go to get the adault wallet, right? If you don't want to do a second walk through termia field couldn't you just get those two from the moving bushing in north clocktown (or the two boxes in west clocktown)? It took me, without any tool assistance, a total of 35 minutes to get from the bank to there and back to the bank. So that would be well in your remaining time and having the adault wallett at this point could save some time later on.
Edit: Or maybe just collect two before you even come to termia. On the way there there are many bushes with rupes. Then you could bring them to the bank after you spoke with the scarecrow. You would probably loose a few frames, but if you do a second run through termia field on the evening of the first day you could collect up to 200 rupes, as you would gain the adault wallet after the first run.
Just throwing these out there, please don't hit me. ^^"
