Community input on this please!
The script has a part where I'm trying to outline a typical start to finish process for a TAS. Anything that I might be missing or misrepresenting? Currently it's like this:
No one way of doing it, here’s a typical procedure a TASer might follow.
Choosing a game. Usually one you already know and have played.
Obtaining the necessary tools.
Finding key memory locations to be able to monitor changes in RNG, player position etc.
Testing. A long phase. Establishing what the game actually requires to reach completion. Are there any exploits or skips available?
Establishing the overall best route for reaching all unavoidable goals. Often involves extensive mapping and testing.
Finding the most streamlined ways of moving from place to place.
Are there lag frames? How to reduce lag.
Finally creating an optimized run which also uses opportunities for increasing the movie's esthetic and entertainment value. Before this, the TASer may have sent in a video of his Work In Progress for evaluation by other TASers.
Submitting the movie file to TASVideos alongside all the pertinent and interesting information that was found during creating the TAS.
Creating a resource pages entry for the game is not a bad idea either.
saomoore94 if you want to submit a TAS of any fighting game should note that the run should be Playaround so that should entertain viewers with all the glitches that contains the game and using 2 players in ways that serve to entertain
This is rubbish. We get vault-level submissions all the time where finishing fast is more or less the only goal.
I still think probably the only problem with this submission is it's not quite here or there. A bit more testing and implementing the suggested improvements and it should be fine. The author would probably benefit from hanging out in the forums more so as to get to the TASVideos mindset. One has to go all-out to achieve the set goals and the set goals have to fit into the existing paradigm. So "fastest completion" means not just what you do in the fights but from the start of the movie to the finish which includes the character selection screen. And whatever's fastest is all that matters, therefore for that category you have to take the hit to avoid the flawless wins if it saves time.
I think this movie shows why not a lot of "fastest completion" TASes of Mortal Kombat games have been created. It's kinda all or nothing for these games. Then again it IS interesting in an of itself what the matches end up looking like if you're only going for speed, for me at least.
The author should probably have included "flawless wins" as another descriptor for the movie though... If we wanted to think of that as a separate category, this would work. However, the difference is kinda small so... maybe the small changes should be implemented before accepting this.
Author, think of this as your WIP that you wanted to get checked before submitting! At least now you have par times for each fight you know you can beat by taking the hit. :D
thatguy: Sorry for the late reply (I don't get notifications for some reason). Yes I'm sure you could be of help! I'm going to make a proper return to this project later at which point we can get coordinated. Right now I wouldn't know what to say.
So I have to say I'm undergoing my basically annual Winter time tiredness. The first thing it compromises is creative thinking. And so I'm looking at the script today for instance but I don't feel like I can grasp what I'm doing, the whole, like when I first started writing the drafts. I basically wrote the second draft on 1-2 goes I think. Now I can make little changes and additions but it feels aimless.
I usually come start coming about in April... No guarantees how fast this will move along for a while now. Well, it has no deadline either.
-yes, AndrewG might improve the time still... ignore the factual side of the draft, that will be checked last.
This comparison video of two SMB TASes gave me an idea... I'm going to write in having the TAS and AndrewG's run play side by side for the documentary in the section where the two types of speedrunning are compared.
arkiandruski: I don't see where it says Dawn of Sorrow actually... In the table it's correct at least.
Yes, the draft will point out both that we're not competing with speedrunners but that TASes are hard work too... Do we really never talk about "runners" in here? I guess I can see that "creating", "author" etc. is more fitting and helps to prevent the illusion forming that it's a real-time run where somebody is playing the game. That's probably why the distinctions have been emphasized too. Okay I'll make sure to make at least some mention of this or start using these terms instead, why not.
Why would you say "to write a TAS" though? I don't see the writing metaphor. Also, is it officially "speedrun" instead of "speed run"?
thatguy: Ah yes I can see why you'd bring up such a game. I will definitely consider using it to accompany the section where different types of tricks are introduced alongside other clips. You have a nice summary of what it might offer and yeah it's a very well known and easy-to-understand game.
And hope to see more of you on the forums! ;)
The pace this thing is moving is probably not going to reach more than 2 nights per week so I'll just post on this thread again when significant changes have been made because I know some people may want to keep following it, for which I'm happy by the way! :D
Glad to have you with us! This TAS will get revised at some point because some tricks are known that will save a little time in the earlier levels. Look out for more TASes like this cause you might be able to participate even if you don't wanna work with emulators. Here's the databank that was collected for this game in case you missed it. http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/DOS/Jetpack.html
I think I've solved the acronym issue... It stands for "speedrun" if it's a speedrun and "superplay" if it's a superplay. :)
I've started a third draft that's moving along kinda slowly but we'll get there. The link will be in the first post in a moment if you want to follow its progress.
Ok. So I'm trying to recover from a week of sleeplessness and get back on this and other things soon.
arki: Yes you're right, thanks for the input. Not all TASes are speedruns, ironically, even though S stands for Speedrun... So that would speak in favor of going "Tool-Assisted" first. I'll add something to the script about the different ways of approaching games if I can think of a way to fit that in.
But yeah seeing as you're the only one who seemed to have an opinion, I will most probably go with draft 1 then.
henke: read the first post please. you have to find the videos yourself.
From this point on I'll be progressively less interested in random suggestions and more interested in whatever is listed under "Wanted" in the first post just because as the script keeps gaining shape, I'll know with greater precision what it can actually feature and benefit from.
So I've been ill the whole week and I don't know if I can trust myself to make smart decisions right now. Just to quickly respond to recent comments...
So the last promo video was made maybe 4 years ago. If someone wants to make another fast-paced thing like that feel free to script it. But I'm not going to. I see no point, there's been 3 of them already and I know there's people who like to think progressively and actually think trying something new is okay. I swear it wasn't my idea to make it explain things along the way. Apparently AnS at least agrees.
EEssentia wrote:
use some text like "impossible manurers", "superhuman reflexes," etc. Don't drag in history or explain the history of TAS, speedrunning or communities.
10-year-olds is not the only possible target audience. I think there's people out there who can sit through 30-45 minutes... and actually find even such things interesting that aren't rapid-fire awesomeness.
arki: I'm trying to be concise but informative. You can call it a documentary, then. That's not a bad term. Also you should wait for a more finished draft with most comments. I have a vision that I'm sure people will be most pleased with.
Meshuggah: This project will take a while to finish anyway so it doesn't matter if someone makes a shortie like that in the meanwhile, but please create another thread for it then.
+ your second edit gave me a couple of new ideas for this... I think we'll mention what the shortest and longest current TASes are, surely that's going to be interesting. We'll see how it turns out, there's going to be either/or/both a voice-over or annotations for sure.
Spikestuff: It's 660 seconds, not 6:60... We won't have the whole karaoke. Also I have mentioned (in the new first post you were supposed to read) that you're not supposed to take the rating system seriously. I struggled to come up with it in the first place and because I never found anything satisfying to use as the description for each score, I wanted to stress that it's not important. Besides, visual impact means how it looks to someone who doesn't know the game, not to someone who does. It isn't immediately clear how precise the inputs needed to be.
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So does anyone have an opinion on which draft seems smarter? Explaining "Tool-Assisted" first or explaining "Speedrunning" first. I will wait some more until I feel a bit better so I can think straight and then make the decision by myself if I need to, but just don't tell me I'm not listening to people's opinions here.
BTW I met with Nesquick Bisqwit today and learned some interesting things about the history of emulators and TASing. He's also going to give some kind of interview, which I feel is going to be great for the pacing and overall atmosphere of the video.
THC98: The clip has been added to the table. It looks nice for sure!
The Drafts that I currently have to offer (incomplete) are up on Google Docs (see the first post for links)! Could I ask people to take a look and mainly answer the question: "Should Tool-Assisted" or "Speedrunning" be introduced first? Because you can't understand TASing if you don't understand both of those. You'll see in the drafts what sort of narrative might result.
There is also a comparison file for quick reference for those who have a limited amount of time.
I haven't asked anyone other than Bisquit for interviews but I'm sure something along the lines of what draft 2 proposes could be arranged in case you were wondering.
THC98: We have a couple GC clips but feel free to do what arki says. The procedure of suggesting a clip is now edited into the first post as it should have been long ago.
arkiardruski: Yes, Bisqwit has replied to me. Google Docs was an excellent idea! It's up now and the link is here and in the starter post. GO CHECK IT OUT PEOPLE!
I will take one last glance at my first drafts tomorrow or so and then make them available on Google Docs as well.
Thanks for another Win game we can use keylie! Didn't have too many yet. Also thanks for Spikestuff for a better Bishi Bashi clip... Yeah I didn't know how to categorize that one and it didn't look so special actually. Yeah I see that the other one is better.
Patashu: That's fine, I'm sure we'll find a perfect way to use 8-bit stuff somewhere. I think it must be possible to somehow convert .nsf to .mid which would be all we need. Here's a thread I found about it if you're interested in trying it out. http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11998
However, I've currently got two-ish alternative drafts for the storyboard. I'm going to talk to Bisquit at some point now. Turns out we live in the same town... He might be giving a little interview to make the video a bit more homey... So anyway, you will all get to see the two drafts unless I decide one of them is decidedly better.
Patashu, I will give you plenty of time for anything I'll ask you to do when I've figured out what exactly is called for.
Prince of Persia:
- part 1 00:05 to 00:10
- part 1 03:05 to 03:13
- part 2 04:36 to end of level
- part 2 07:50
I don't think this is a TAS... Correct me if I'm wrong. I decided I'll use Jazz and the SkyRoads TAS because that game is famously really difficult.
arki and ware, I'm adding your suggestions now and I'm pretty happy with the platform variety after that although if anyone knows Arcade games better than me feel free to give a few suggestions for those.
For Wii, use something from STBM's World Of Goo TAS.
Happenst thou have time to find something for me? I'll look at it but much later unless I get what I requested, an actual link to a specific passage (or a couple in this case) in the run. Much appreciated in any case!
Creotheoceann: Can I ask the same of you?
Patashu: I'll get back on the Dawn of Sorrow thing a bit later. Meanwhile can you tell me if it's possible for you to work with "hifi" instruments as well? In case 8-bit doesn't sound right on top of the >8 -bit gameplay, could it easily be converted to another soundfont?
arkiandruski: A yes, that passage... I think it became clearer when it was extended a little to start from the beginning of the stage. Yes, I get what's happening now (but don't ask me what's changed). We'll have to use the low-quality clip but no biggie, it's a short clip as well. Is it still more or less TAS-only to clip through the wall btw? Because a death-abuse in itself is not a just-TAS trick. Might end up using it anyway and whatever Genesis stuff you could dig up!
Someone's gonna have a helluva time trying to improve it in any case. Sorry, it's close to impossible to try to offer helpful comments at this stage: you know the game so well by now that random ideas are unlikely to hit the mark. :( :=)
70 looks pretty linear. Suspecting any optimization are to be found?
Oh wow! You've made some important discoveries now that I saw the RP. Interesting about spears, but I can't find myself being surprised with this game any more :). Sounds like there's going to be more on the ToDo for phase 2 though with spinner manipulation! (I knew it! :D)
So the first phase of the project is finished! A grand total of 96 clips (cosmic Super Mario World reference?) have been collected so far. Here's a link to the little Excel-table I'm
working with if you're interested. https://www.dropbox.com/s/2br7bl00iu2mrlo/Promo%20Video.xlsx
Please don't read too much into the ratings I've given the clips. If you think I've completely miscategorized something, let me know.
WANTED:
-some samples for these platforms (a game or two is enough, just to show off the various platforms):
DOS (only have Jetpack so far)
WINDOWS (have Cave Story for now)
WII (no clips so far)
Arcade
Sega Genesis
...and any of the more obscure platforms that BizHawk or another new emulator brought along.
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I repeat here I didn't look at anything that didn't have at least a Youtube link and a specific passage pointed out from the run. If you think something spectacular is missing, someone has to put in that work first.
I left out a few clips that didn't look very impressive or where I didn't understand what the trick was at all. Also a Chuck Rock suggestion was skipped because the YouTube video wasn't playing properly. The evolution of Ocarina of Time isn't needed and the third clip completely skips the area the first two play through. A few more were skipped because they were very similar to other clips from the same or similar games.
Thanks a lot Flip and arkiandruski! I believe the Super Mario 64 clips Flip collected will serve for demonstrating the "Evolution of a TAS" very nicely! Arkiandruski, I like your compilation a lot as well and I see no problem with using it in its entirety. We'll have one of the composers make a nice remix of one of the game tracks to go with it (are you interested Patashu?).
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So I'm going to start working on the storyboard. More requests may come as that moves along.
How do you know which of the two possible lreds to phase out to get inside the desired checker square? Did you already experiment with manipulating the spinners in the previous level? Or have you found that to be impossible already? Don't know if it's possible not to get harassed no matter what.
BTW... Have you ever considered doing the following anywhere: pre-alting to get a wiggle fall for greater horizontal displacement before phasing blocks out from underneath you?