creo: thanks for the half-speed! You don't have time to grasp what's happening in the full-speed ones, so i think there should be such an encode for the full video. The sounds are a little off but i'm guessing that's just the speed-halving.
That's an extremely limited view.
In this exact case, it's dark red, and you start via breaking the block, and RETURN with your trick. Since it's RETURN, the time is not the issue here, and the trick is valid.
Ah yes you're right. In the blue route of the first suggestion you use the time usefully by collecting the three gems (and the phaser possibly). And yes there could well be situations where the opening you created can be passed through again or something else useful be done with the waiting time... or even combining it with a monster redirection.
In the second suggestion it looks like you're only going through once, which makes me think it couldn't quite make up for the time even if you don't need to get the three gems later, but what do I know. :) You'd have to consider forfeiting the later usage of the stunner though.
Oh and come to think of it if you picked up the stunner, you couldn't get across the bridge, so the second alternative becomes less attractive. With the first you could just barely avoid picking it up I think, but after that you couldn't justify going back for it for getting past the marble.
The great drawback with that trick (let's call it phase-climbing) is having to make up for the time the block took to phase out and in again. With purples and lreds it wouldn't be so bad... So let's keep a lookout for that.
Slamo, I have to say I'm severely disappointed with you this time! :) You can make the first cycle, the jump to get the first two gems is really hard to perform (on the first time, after that it magically becomes automatic, and I'm not even being ironic!) so the timing must be real tight or something else is going on. Anyway then you just press the cyan button once and proceed as before.
you guys realize that if you use the random powerup and if it should happen that someone later comes up with a way of manipulating them more efficiently, the whole run could be obsoleted by an almost certainly less interesting one?
if on the other hand you could manipulate the power-up not to get in your way, you could be sure of avoiding that problem.
I embedded the videos for the first level using the new YouTube flashblock feature we have. Please weigh in with thoughts.
I think it's better like this. Is it a supported feature of Youtube or just something you did for this site?
EDIT
Would it be possible to make the preview box expandable? It's hard to see the layout because it's so thin.
I started the integration of WIP's and route suggestions with the levels subpages. I'd like to ask for feedback on the formatting or what else should be included because it's easier to do that now than later.
EDIT
If you check it out now, you'll see two ways of limiting the line length. The first is adding a space at the beginning of each line, which is what I did to the first long comment. The other is to use %%%'s for manual line breaks, which take a bit of juggling to make look good. Adding spaces on the other hand doesn't seem to work with every line (they're placed at the end of the previous line instead). I also tried using "inline quotes". http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/DOS/Jetpack/Levels00To09.html
So I'm quite pleased to present you this... The level you see below is solvable.
See if you can figure it out ;) but I'll tell you this: I added the trick to the game resource page earlier. There's a similar jump in 06 in the bottom right corner and I'm SURE there must be places where it's legitimately going to save time.
In fact I'll bet many people know about the trick from just playing the game, but perhaps they didn't realize that you can make so much use of it.
Another thing: Could you Slamo create a list of links to the WIP videos you've made so far to be added to the levels subpage? Having all the route suggestions (those of everyone) up in one place under the right tab would be very useful for making comments on them retrospectively.
Wow. That's one impressive looking solution for a level that was looking kinda daunting. That horizontal movement! Thanks everyone for posting suggestions! And go Slamo!
In other news, you CAN die to monsters jutting out of blocks if they're far out enough (probably the hitboxes are just confusing). I added this and a couple of other things to the tricks section.
The WIP looks pretty amazing. I like it how you see a little extra information on the screen - that's something I might consider leaving in the final encode, or as an alternative version. As much of it as possible.
So I noticed the bigger png's and the editor preview png's that we have on the levels subpage have a different frame happening. Unfortunately, this messes up how the autoladders look. I recommend looking at the editor picture and seeing which end looks "closed". That's the direction the ladder is going. For conveyors look at the stripes, they're tilted the way it's moving.
So I'm off tomorrow for 2½ weeks with little editing possibilities. Will finish the tables after that, but here's a link to a .txt file containing the image links anyway if someone wants to speed it up.
Maybe you'll figure out also how long a ladder has to be to make it worthwhile to jump before going down (i mean even if the jump is not stopped by a block above). Also remember, if there's room you can just fall off and keep pressing alt and I think that prevents you from sticking to ladders.
So Slamo and co, it occurred to me that isn't ladder climbing faster when jumping up the ladder? It only became relevant with level 05. Was that taken into account?
Further about moving on foot: Could a table showing what jumps are make-able and what aren't be useful for fast reference in planning routes in levels where you go without fuel? I started listing them in the tricks section, but my information is based on non-TAS trials so the list should be updated by using frame perfect jumps. I don't think things like moss or conveyors affect how far you can jump, but you seem to fall off ladders a bit sooner so those would be different unfortunately.
Added a todo about including a little more info on getting the game (and movie files) to run.
For those interested in .png-compression - for what I could tell, using ImageMagick's 8-bit convert didn't really save any more space in the end compared to a file that went through otherwise the same compression process (or maybe 2 bytes, don't remember). I used (as per instructions page on the site) optipng, PNGOUTwin and DeflOpt. Also, using ScreenshotCompress on top of those (with its numerous trials per image) seemed to be saving only a few extra bytes at most.
Finally, I have a list of image links (imgur) to ready-to-use pictures. Next up I'm going to see (within a couple of days) what kind of neat table can be set up on the RP.
I guess it won't ever solve the equation of what the fastest route is, but to even be able to predict where each missile is a what time would be useful + I think that's something that's going to be useful in lots of levels. So if someone has time, it wouldn't go to waste to find the missile speed and create a basis for that sort of calculation.
Another approach would be to try to calculate the times when it's ok to go from a certain ladder to another ladder (and make it in time). because that's simply periodic as well. could that simplify the planning? cause in a way it's about making or missing a cycle, except there's lots of alternatives.
The position of each missile should be a function of time (a piece-wise function?). You could use frame counts to determine that ahead of time, in principle. That sounds like it could be useful in a situation where you realize you could get to a certain ladder a little bit faster than with your current candidate route, but would the missiles block you then?
Could be very impractical though for all I know. I'm gonna resume work on the item/monster png.:s for now.
Ok thanks for telling me. You can tell I haven't been around so I have no idea what the standard procedure is, you actually have to tell me these things. Ok, I'll join you once I figured it out.
Guys, we just actually had simultaneous-editing mishap with Ilari. I was wondering why he had reverted certain changes I had made until it dawned on me. This is why I suggested adding that headline to the top and maybe stating how long until you're going to finish (better to reserve some extra time in case you need to make a couple of revisions), and doing it the long way like that. Wouldn't you agree? Cause it's gonna be stupid if you don't notice at first. To be clear I don't know if anyone has taken to doing that yet, but since I got no feedback on that idea, I never was too careful about it myself which is why it happened.
I can't imagine it becoming a problem if the tag was used. You can always make notes first about the changes you want to make, or even write them out to be ready whenever it's your turn. So now I'd really like to hear your thoughts.
Are the extra uses of the phaser for manipulation or for fun in this WIP?
Nach wrote:
Svimmer wrote:
Do you guys think it would be a good idea to make it possible for people to assume responsibility for sections of the RP?
Contribute what you can and we'll work it out. Although if someone wants to take it upon themselves to do a large job, alert the others, so there's no overlap of work.
I meant to assume responsibility for updating the section whenever suggestions/opinions have been posted in the section. I was mainly thinking about how to generalize the fact that probably I'm going to be the one for now to update the naming conventions (although I think the next version everyone is gonna be ok with).
Nach wrote:
Tiles is used in the level editor, because it's tiles!
Block is used in the official documentation.
I think what "block" means in the manual is the editor feature that allows mass populating/copying and things. Otherwise it talks about bricks and steel barriers and things.
The hintbook uses the terms interchangeably. In fact it even has an instance of "tile block". I'll just give both alternatives on the RP, but I'd like you to admit that it's not always 100% clear what the "official" term is.
Nach wrote:
It's better to use an official term instead of each of us making up our own.
I get it you agree that creating conventions (whatever it's based on) is an ok idea. However, what if the official word is a)difficult to tell what it actually is? or b) counter-intuitive? I feel like you're not giving me a lot of credit here. And I'm trying hard to avoid making it seem like I wanna impose my opinions on anyone, but aren't your opinions of the same weight? I know people can be used to expressing themselves differently, e.g. I know I'm always a bit wary about making statements that sound categorical.
slamo wrote:
When the dust settles [the RP] can be neatened up.
My thoughts exactly. That's why I thought it's better to post your ideas/create your vision than hold back, because if others don't like it, they'll express their view, no harm done.
Thanks for all the recent work everybody on capturing, posting etc. the pictures and miscellaneous. The graphs look awesome as well! I will spend some time on this today and see what I can get done.
I'm sorry it's such a long post (I guess I'm a relatively fast typer with time on my hands :) ) I bring up lots of things in this post that, once settled, won't have to be brought up again.
Thanks for giving feedback on the stuff I did, although it might be even better if it was underneath the pertinent items in the RP so I didn't have to scan the thread entries, although I certainly will do that.
slamo wrote:
I think some of the things should probably be discussed before being posted.
I was thinking that even if someone posts something not everyone agrees with, because the RP is under heavy construction right now, does it really matter? I mean because I personally hope lots of opinions will be expressed about all such points, which as I envision means having a discussion going on under many entries, so it will not look finished for a long time.
Otherwise, do you suggest the discussion should take place here? I'm thinking that would further clutter up this page. Also, I think we can assume that each editor will use their common sense and judgment about how to express things. Secondly I for one trust that most entries into the RP will not even be contended as such, given there's a lot of things that are "self-evident" or "universally useful" or something.
Thirdly, currently we're likely to be the only people using the RP for a long time.
Do you guys think it would be a good idea to make it possible for people to assume responsibility for sections of the RP? I mean, if after a while there seems to be no more new viewpoints on the naming conventions, say, it will be difficult for people to sort of "step up" and go make the changes, cause it's unclear who's supposed to do that. So I'm suggesting you can write your name under a section if you feel you're ready to try to take every opinion expressed under that title into account and make the section better accordingly.
I hope I'm not being anal about this, but I haven't ever really cooperated in something like this with other people before (and we even come from somewhat different albeit always western cultural backgrounds) and I'm not sure what the norms are or if there are any. So anyway, I'll check up on everything that's been said about that names list and create a new draft after a couple of days, if that sounds reasonable.
For now a few quick responses:
Nach wrote:
I dislike the idea of using obscure acronyms.
I see what you mean. I think it might depend on how used one is to working with acronyms how easily one can remember them. Or maybe it's an effect of having come up with them that makes them easier to remember. However, I thought view might come up, I'll suggest names like "R-tele" or simply "R-teleporter" in the next draft.
About staying with in-game and manual naming... We already seem to be using a lot of names that are completely different from the manual. E.g. hardly anyone has used "tiles" for "blocks". The ball-type enemy is called "Steel Ball". Also, I don't get the feeling the manual is so profoundly thought-out, it for example has a mistake where it describes what ice does (seems a mistake to me, maybe not).
Ultimately, I'm not sure if it actually has any value to necessarily agree on one right way of expressing things. I'm starting to think it's better to rename the whole section: "Possible Abbreviations" or something that's meant to be helpful, not restrictive. Only in some cases could there be actual confusion, as with those Spikes and Spinners you mentioned, so I think I'll revamp the section heavily in a couple of days.
Also, Nach, I created a ToDo section now in the RP. I know it's probably not going to take whoever long to do the things you suggested should be done regarding making a fresh, uniformly formatted set of .png's of the next levels, but maybe you should make the whole task of creating all of those .png's into a task in that section and then someone can "sign it off" or take upon them half of it or something and everyone will know it's being taken care of. I wonder if this seems as good an idea to others?
slamo wrote:
I did try this route first - it's necessary to get the second tank...
This is exactly why it will be good when we've established the system for working on this run, so here it was difficult for Mojo to tell if this had already been tested, but we'll figure out how everything should proceed. In fact, maybe someone will create a section in the RP that describes the process (just a first draft for discussion)?
I wonder if there could even be a way to separate the levels themselves into different discussion areas? You could maybe have just one level being discussed on this thread and the rest deposited on the RP? There, under hidden sections you could talk about the routes as long as you like without creating any clutter on this page. The only problem with that is that it would limit how many people can write at once, because... I don't actually even know what happens if more than one editor saves their changes simultaneously. Is it like dividing by zero? What Ilari said below.
But I feel something like this needs to be done, because imagine someone comes up with a new route for level 2 when 80 levels have already been done? You can't really post your new idea here any more, because everything would be mixed up, so I'd suggest something like this: the name of the thread should be updated periodically to indicate which levels are being scrutinized at the moment, maybe just 1-2 levels? And for other levels you'd just wait for a chance to edit (copy-paste preferably) your new suggestions into the right place in the RP. And when level 99 has been finished, there would be a new round starting from the first level, seeing if new tricks/routes have been reported on the RP and so on... Maybe after two passes it will be good enough? :)
What do you think about all this?
I just finished my changes to the RP (resource page). I added various sections and some of the tricks that have been mentioned etc. Could everyone give their input on one thing: I created a list of "naming conventions", some of which are from the manual, some are (IMO) better names than what the manual has and some things I just came up with. So if you see something (they're only suggestions and no-one has to use them) that you'd rather change, or something that's missing, could you add your opinion under the entry or somewhere using asterisks (**).
The questions I wanted to ask is did slamo/others do anything to the contents of jetpak15.zip before making the game image out of it? Did you remove anything? Also what DOS are you using and where can it be found? Could you add this info to the RP as well, because don't you have to have the same images if you want to watch the WIP's in the emulator?
Someone should probably add all of the candidate routes on the RP as well (unless that makes it slow to load, does it help if they're hidden?) except for those that have clearly been obsoleted. My logic still says having more than one candidate is good for potential RNG issues in the final version of the run, right?
EDIT
If you wanted to be really systematic, there should be information about each candidate, at least the time it gave, a demonstration video for each route, because of letting everyone know how the route was implemented (there could be a mistake in the demonstration). But that would give the runner a lot to do. I for one am happy to help with managing the RP and adding route pictures etc. but I currently feel a bit uncomfortable with JPC-RR itself.
I like the route/ideas Mojo presents in the above post. It should definitely be tested.
See if you can figure it out ;) but I'll tell you this: I added the trick to the game resource page earlier. There's a similar jump in 06 in the bottom right corner and I'm SURE there must be places where it's legitimately going to save time.
In fact I'll bet many people know about the trick from just playing the game, but perhaps they didn't realize that you can make so much use of it.
Another thing: Could you Slamo create a list of links to the WIP videos you've made so far to be added to the levels subpage? Having all the route suggestions (those of everyone) up in one place under the right tab would be very useful for making comments on them retrospectively.