Posts for Warp


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pirate_sephiroth wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzS-aFi0qKI
It raises the question why someone would record themselves doing that and post the video on youtube for the whole world to view.
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The rules page says: "A user who wishes to change username, or who has forgotten the password to the account, should contact an administrator." There's no mention, however, how that can be done. This isn't immediately obvious in other pages either. I think it would be nice if it said how you can contact an administrator.
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nitsuja wrote:
Warp wrote:
What does "frameadvance()" actually do? (Does it, perhaps, mean "wait until the next frame"? If so, shouldn't it be named like that? As it's named now, it sounds like an instruction for the emulator to advance to the next frame.)
It is precisely an instruction for the emulator to advance to the next frame.
I don't quite understand it. If it's the script which is telling the emulator to advance to the next frame and not the player (by pressing the . button, or whatever it might be bound to), then doesn't it mean the player loses control? The script is continuously telling the emulator to advance to the next frame, in an infinite loop. How do you stop that? Or is there an implied pause somewhere? (But if there is, then wouldn't the function actually mean "wait for the next frame", because then it would be the player who decides when to go to the next frame with the . key, rather than the script?)
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Not having ever used Lua scripting in emulators, I'm curious about a few things (it could perhaps be a good idea to write some kind of tutorial somewhere where these things get explained): - Where is the script written to and how do you tell the emulator to use it when running a certain game? - Can you have more than one distinct Lua script running, or is it just one? - Seemingly the emulator starts running the script immediately when the game starts and keeps running it for as long as the execution proceeds in the script (deducing from the use of "while true" in all the examples in this thread). Is there a way to hook scripts to run on certain events instead (eg. keypresses or such)? - What variables and functions are available for the script to use? What does "frameadvance()" actually do? (Does it, perhaps, mean "wait until the next frame"? If so, shouldn't it be named like that? As it's named now, it sounds like an instruction for the emulator to advance to the next frame.)
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More closely related to console gaming: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGDJwVThB6k (Edit: I changed the video to one with less errors.)
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Limne wrote:
If corrupting the game by resetting is allowed, why shouldn't corrupting the game by shutting down the console be allowed? What's the difference
I think both should be allowed, I just thought I'd point at that they do behave differently.
Well, that's kind of my point: If that is also allowed, then what other forms of tampering with the hardware should be allowed as well? Where do we draw the line? How would you define what is acceptable and what isn't (and why)?
Personally, I can't imagine a lot of TASers needing to use cheat codes. What would they want 99 lives for?
For example invincibility could make some runs faster because taking-damage-as-shortcut wouldn't be limited to your life bar. In some games it may even mean that you can run straight through enemies without having to dodge or spend time killing them.
If a save-corruption run gave itself 99 of every item, that probably would be boring. Getting 99 items of glitchy nonsense that allows you to access various memory address though, is priceless.
You could achieve the same thing by tampering with the game's ROM using an (emulated) gamegenie device or whatever. Why wouldn't that be "priceless"? Why is that suddenly "cheating" and/or "boring"? What's the difference? That's kind of my point.
As for Game Genies, etc... To be honest, if somebody did use Game Genie codes to pull off a clever, interesting or artful TAS, I'd be happy to see it. I'm sure I've watched things like that on Youtube. All a Game Genie code really amounts to is a patch, and we do have hacks in the demo section, and I'm sure that if someone made something that everyone fell in love with it would appear in the demo section.
Hacked ROMs are generally not accepted because they make little sense. You could eg. just hack the Super Mario Bros ROM so that you can complete the game in 30 seconds. However, that just becomes more or less a machinima video, not a tool-assisted speedrun. Using gamegenie codes is not much better, which is why it's generally not allowed (something I personally agree with).
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Kuwaga wrote:
Would you generally forbid resetting the game to save warp? I'm assuming that no, you wouldn't. So resetting after saving is fine, right?
Let's say that it wouldn't bother me if resetting was not allowed at all. (It might make some runs slightly more repetitive because of the required backtracking, but hey, we didn't have recording support for resetting for years, and the runs were just fine. It's not like it's an essential feature to have.)
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Nach wrote:
Think of the following motto: "We don't need no stinkin` cheat codes". We try to show our playthoughs as better than the average person. Cheat codes detracts from that.
I perfectly understand why cheat codes are not allowed, and fully agree with that. However, I was not asking that: I was asking that since using cheat codes is forbidden (for good reasons), why isn't save data corruption, which ostensibly achieves the same thing as cheat codes? But thinking about it, I think I can answer that question myself: Because save data corruption is more akin to bug abuse (which is allowed) than to using cheat codes. Certainly if abusing some bug (which doesn't involve the reset button) allowed you to get the 99 items, it would be allowed (unless it makes the run outright boring, of course, but the point is that it's not forbidden by the basic rules). Ok, I concede that point. I'm still a bit uncomfortable with the means by which this "bug abuse" is performed, though (ie. because I consider it hardware abuse).
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Nach wrote:
Warp wrote:
If corrupting the game by resetting is allowed, why shouldn't corrupting the game by shutting down the console be allowed? What's the difference?
I don't think there is too much of a difference there. But regardless, I'd allow both.
Btw, I'm honestly interested in knowing your (plural) opinion about the question I posted above: Why is using cheat codes supported by the game itself forbidden, but corrupting the game's save data via a reset allowed, even though they both could ostensibly give similar results? If you think about it, there's little practical difference between the two, IMO. Just as a practical example: If a game had a cheat code which gives you 99 items, it would probably be forbidden to use it. But if you could get the same 99 items via save data corruption, it would be allowed. But why?
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Limne wrote:
It rather sounds like you have been arguing that all uses of the reset button are illegitimate and I am curious to know from what premise you are coming from. If that's not what you're saying, then I apologize.
No, I'm arguing that corrupting the save data of the game by interfering with the hardware (rather than the game itself) is, in my opinion, dubious. The problem is that since this is happening outside the game's own code and logic, via an action which is not part of the game execution, it constitutes, in my opinion, altering the game data via (in this case emulated) hardware abuse. I'm not arguing that having a reset button command in the emulator movie file should be forbidden. I'm saying that corrupting the save data via a reset is akin to corrupting the game code or its data by other means (which is forbidden by the site rules). What is the difference between game data corruption using the reset button, and game data corruption via gameshark or gamegenie? They can be both done in the real console and in the emulator. An emulator could conceivably save these gamegenie codes in their movie file (if they don't already). Yet using gamegenie codes is forbidden because it's considered cheating. So I ask: Why is altering the game data using an (emulated) gamegenie considered cheating, but altering the game data by abusing the reset button is not? What is the major difference? Personally I don't consider "a gamegenie device didn't come by default with consoles" a good-enough reason. (I wouldn't be surprised if there were pirate consoles with gamegenie devices built in.) What's worse: Cheat codes supported by the game itself are generally forbidden by the site rules. Here we aren't even talking about hardware abuse or even data corruption. Just regular and normal gamepad keypresses. So why are cheat codes prohibited, but corrupting the game's data (ostensibly with similar results) allowed? What's the difference?
Now, you've conceded that developers intend for players to, at some point, reset or shut off their consoles. And yet, for whatever reason you seem to be arguing that this fairly routine operation is the equivalent of smashing the console with a hammer.
Nope. I don't consider pressing the reset button akin to smashing the console. I consider corrupting the game data with the reset button akin go corrupting it by smashing the console. There's a difference. If some game requires a reset as part of normal gameplay as some kind of gimmick, that's fine. But that's completely different from actually corrupting the game data via a reset. You are not corrupting it by playing. You are corrupting it by telling the emulator to corrupt it. Again, I see little difference to a gamegenie.
Furthermore, there is a significant difference between pressing the reset button (a soft reset) and shutting the power off and on (a hard reset)
If corrupting the game by resetting is allowed, why shouldn't corrupting the game by shutting down the console be allowed? What's the difference? And consequently: What other hardware abuse should be allowed? What's the defining limit when something becomes prohibited? "You must be able to do it with the real console" is clearly not such a limit. You can smash the console and in theory something funny might happen to the game.
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Limne wrote:
Again, I fail to understand. You're telling me that the developers never expected for players, playing their games, to ever push the reset button, or shut off their machines? The very idea of having saves argues otherwise.
Yeah, sure, that's exactly what I'm saying: All developers expected players to keep their game running 24/7, without ever turning off the console or changing to another game. *sigh* I don't even understand where you are getting that. It sounds like a straw man. The reset button is not input to the game. Games cannot hook to the reset button. Pressing the reset button is not part of gameplay for that very reason. There's little difference between pressing the reset button and unplugging the power cord. And since we are abusing the hardware, what difference is there between unplugging the power cord in the middle of a game and eg. stabbing the console with a screwdriver? Both could equally cause eg. saved data to become corrupted. Not because of anything you did in the game, not because of exploiting any programming error in the game, but because of abusing the hardware. There is a clear difference. If you can't see it, then I don't know how better to explain it.
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Personman wrote:
HappyLee's SMB walkathon made me _so_ happy when it came out.
Note that he didn't invent the concept nor was he the first to submit (a published) SMB walkathon. It was Bisqwit who first came up with the idea. (Just pointing out credit where credit is due.)
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Limne wrote:
As I see it, the reset button is an intentional feature of the hardware. It's there to be used.
Not as part of gameplay. You may as well argue that the power cord of the console is an intentional feature of the hardware and is there to be used. Let's plug and unplug the power cord 100 times per second and see if the console starts smoking and the game behaving in funny ways. That's hardware abuse, not gameplay. And I don't see much of a difference to resetting while the game is saving. That's why the idea bothers me.
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Nach wrote:
Well, some of us would rather not be contacted by strangers.
That's why it might be a good idea to set up a generic admin contact email or submission form or whatever, which could then be periodically checked by admins and other people in charge.
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Brushy wrote:
Warp wrote:
Guybrush wrote:
Here's my suggestion for the front page.
Yeah, using that exact font too... :P
I was actually serious with my suggestion.
I know. I was just kidding... :)
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I wonder if it would be worth putting an entry about contacting the site managers for whatever purpose (such as for a magazine interview, reporting abuse of tasvideos material, etc).
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Guybrush wrote:
Here's my suggestion for the front page.
Yeah, using that exact font too... :P
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P.JBoy wrote:
this
I like that idea, but I wonder how difficult it would be to implement. If, however, the technical problems are solved and nice modular solution is implemented to list movies in that kind of format, maybe it could be used more widely throughout the site rather than just on the front page... (although that might require significant refactoring of other code as well, so it might not happen).
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That reminds me of another problem related to spheres: Assume you have four identical spheres. Three of them are laying on a plane so that they touch each other. The fourth sphere is resting on top of the other three (so that it touches all of them). What is the height of this structure? Bonus: Assume there's a fifth, smaller sphere in the middle of this structure, touching all the other four spheres. What is the radius and height (distance from the plane) of this fifth sphere?
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Bisqwit wrote:
Simple: Iterate through ambiguous choices and choose the first-match, and yank error messages.
Of course it has to detect ambiguous cases. For example "take the key from the box" has two possible interpretations because there are two keys in the blue box. An interesting question is that if you had both keys in your inventory and you typed "open the door with the key", should it announce the command to be ambiguous, or should it automatically choose the proper key?
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Speaking of getting ye flask, I really miss those text adventures. But it's true that in the 80's many of them were quite picky about what they supported and how flexible they were (often perhaps because of the limited amount of RAM in the systems in question). More modern interpreters can understand surprisingly complex sentences. For example you might have a session along the lines of: > open the door. You can't, it's locked. > open the red box and examine it You open the red box. The red box is empty. > open the blue box and examine it You open the blue box. There's a golden key and a silver key in the blue box. > take the golden key from the box and open the door with it You take the golden key from the blue box. You open the door with the golden key. Especially the last command requires quite a bit of deduction from the part of the interpreter. While simple in principle, it still manages to give a great feeling of flexibility because the interpreter does not require you to spell out every minute detail, and instead can deduce what you mean. For example, you don't have to specify the color of the box where you want the key taken from, as the interpreter can deduce that since there are two boxes and a golden key only in one of them, you meant to take it from that one. Likewise there are three things to which the last word "it" could refer to: The golden key, the box and the door. However, "open ... with it" makes only sense with the key (which is now in your inventory), so it deduces that "it" refers (unambiguously) to it.
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This raises the question of whether more could be achieved (in terms of speedrunning) in a real console than on an emulator because current emulators only sync input keys with video frames (while the real consoles might do it slightly differently).
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Derakon wrote:
In fact, I've seen a video of someone achieving one of the left-right glitches in reality with an unmodified controller, just by pressing the opposed directions very quickly.
I think that settles it. Simultaneous left+right cannot be considered hardware modification/abuse because it is physically possible to achieve the effect by tapping left+right fast enough, so a godlike player can do it whenever needed (which is what TASing simulates). (Of course we are talking about the NES here. I wonder if it's different in some other console...)
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Derakon wrote:
Hmm...thinking about it, I can't think of any mechanism to prevent potential DOS attacks against an automated encoder short of a privilege and quota system. So I say just let the user tell you how long to encode for.
As you say, some kind of quota system is more or less a necessity. It could be, for example, one automatic encode per day per registered user per IP address. Users with higher ranks could be given the permission to use it more often (eg. 10 times a day or whatever). If the privilege is abused somehow, it should be possible to demote or even completely ban individual users (based on account and/or IP) from using the automatic encoding service. No system will be 100% fool-proof, of course, but at least should stop the most obvious vandalism.
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One thing we should be aware of is that when money is involved, it sometimes tends to bring forth the worst in people. The larger the sums we are talking about, the nastier the ensuing chaos can become. I witnessed first-hand this sad phenomenon in the POV-Ray community in 2004. Several companies, including AMD and Zazzle, sponsored the POV-Ray team for a rendering competition. The first price was a top-of-the-line Dual AMD Opteron worth $10000 (the second and third prices not being far behind, at $2500 and $1000 worth). The POV-Ray community is usually very friendly and peaceful, but that competition brought out the worst of many people. People started complaining about everything. Admins were too strict with rules, or too lenient with the rules (not to talk about people trying to find loopholes), judges' decisions and arguments were seriously denigrated and bashed, and of course complained about, and whatnot. It was a really ugly sight to witness. There had been and has since been other smaller competitions, but with no or very small prices, and it had never got even close to such nastiness. Usually people in the community congratulate instead of complain. However, seemingly when big money is at play, people change.