I'd love to have some kind of TAS repository for Romhacks, but the site probably isn't the right place for it. Maybe there should be a thread on the forum for it.
Gruefood Delight? There's a section specifically for hacks; this would go well there. We have stuff like Kaizo Mario World 1 and 2 there already.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tweaking
This page says "an example of a shortcut using this method is being able to complete the Azalea Gym and therefore use HM01 (Cut) to proceed through Ilex Forest without having defeated Rocket Executive Proton in Slowpoke Well," but I haven't found a video of it.
This information is wrong though.
It is true there is a tweak to complete Azalea Gym before Slowpoke Well (which is the video jlun linked after this message). However, you still need to complete Slowpoke Well to trigger Rival 2 fight and Farfetch event inside Ilex Forest (only after that, you get the HM01). Which means this tweak only woud skip Slowpoke Well if you got a Pokemon with cut via trading.
Ah, that would be my fault; I was trying to list an example of a sequence break possible with only running tweaking. Do you know of any actual ones then? If not then I'll fall back to being able to enable Mystery Gift before the first badge in DPP.
Super Mario World has multiple arbitrary code triggers as well but all except 1 require superhuman timing to pull off and are unlikely to be discovered without tool-assistance.
SMW game end glitch has been done in RTA
"all except 1 [of the triggers] require superhuman timing"
The one I'm referring to is the Cloud glitch which I'm aware is doable and has been done in real time. The other two SMW game end glitch movies published to this site require a setup that as far as I know cannot/has never been done in real time.
^Definitely Pokemon. Super Mario 64 doesn't have arbitrary code execution discovered yet. Pokemon has multiple different ways to trigger arbitrary code, as well as numerous memory corruption glitches. Super Mario World has multiple arbitrary code triggers as well but all except 1 require superhuman timing to pull off and are unlikely to be discovered without tool-assistance.
O_o
Will this game ever stop being more broken?
Like the Gen I Pokemon games, probably not.
Edit: The player in the video says that the item swap is nearly impossible to pull off in the Japanese version of SMW. Anyone know why?
God damn it I didn't see this until April 2nd.
I have been briefly thinking about a glitchless 100% TAS of this hack since a few days before the run was finished (not making it personally, just thinking about it). My feeling is that, although it would definitely make a good TAS in my mind, I'm not so sure that it would make a good submission to this site.
I am aware that hacks in general have been received poorly on this site and I think it is the second-most likely reason for the TASVideos collective to completely tear down someone's submission (the most likely being alternate goals or "goals"); I myself have been guilty of such behavior in the past. I have become rather cynical in regards to submitting stuff for the site so I just want to warn about this.
I may be missing something, but I'm not aware of specifically hacks and alternate goals in general being looked down upon on this site, nor even specifically hacks and alternate goals that haven't been seen before. I'm guessing you're referring to recent submissions such as #4563: IgorOliveira666's SNES Unknown Game "warps" in 11:02.71, #4618: Baddap1's NES Super Mario Bros. Bowser's Jumping Challenge in 07:54.25, and #4619: Baddap1's NES Super Mario Unlimited in 13:03.46? Usually, a submission of a hack/alternate goal is looked down upon simply because it doesn't offer anything new in comparison to the vanilla game, regardless of how well optimized it is (in the case of the first example). I'm having a hard time finding an example of a submission that was viewed poorly only because it was a hack/alternate goal, and not because of some other significant factor such as the hack itself being subpar, or the optimization.
TPP Anniversary Red would not fall under the above concern, especially if it were played glitchless 100% due to all the additional requirements completely new from vanilla Red. I think even a simple "glitchless beat the game once" category would qualify, as, per my original post, we have no published moves of Gen I that do not heavily abuse some strong glitch. I'd like to make a reference to #3651: bahamete's SNES Super Mario World: The Second Reality Project Reloaded in 34:40.18 and its acceptance comment here - a 100% run of that game would deserve to obsolete the current movie and would definitely stand out against vanilla SMW or even SDW, but a movie that simply beat the game was deemed enough to accept. (As a side note, I do not think the simple "glitchless beat the game once" category would qualify as standing out if a glitchless run of Gen I were already published (unobsoleted), but there isn't one.)
FractalFusion wrote:
That being said, I think that hacks should be TASed on their own merit, and not solely to get around some limitation in the original.
Since the idea of TASing a hack is to show off the hack, "glitchless 100%" is the first thing that came to mind for this hack. Of course "glitchless" will always be subject to debate; personally I think that the specifics of what constitutes "glitchless" should be left simply to the author's discretion and let the TAS speak for itself; otherwise there is too much red tape.
Agreed on all of this.
FractalFusion wrote:
I think a good 100% would be completing all important events exclusive to this hack (gym leader rematches, Dream Red, Mew event, Battle Tent, catch all the Pokemon, and E4/Champion rematches).
Quick note: Excluding the Battle Tent, all of this including Dream Red is already a prerequisite for unlocking the E4+Champion rematch and the final boss after that. An end goal could be condensed to "Beat the final boss" or "Beat the final boss and also beat the Battle Tent once". (Identity of final boss not mentioned directly here in case of spoilers.)
FractalFusion wrote:
Reply to Pokota: I believe what FractalFusion meant by this is that it's not necessary for scenery to change in order for a hack to be accepted, if there are enough other merits. The equivalent here would be a Pokemon hack that doesn't change the maps. (And even then that's not completely true; a few areas are brand new in this hack, such as the Battle Tent and the entire Mew event.)
grassini wrote:
Or can we accept the arbitrary category of "nido family ohkoing with horn drill x accuracy the whole game or just luck manipulate the ohko because it's tas"?
FractalFusion already covered this; Nidoking spamming OHKO moves is not a category but rather simply the fastest known way to beat Gen I glitchless. And "glitchless" or "no memory corruption" if you prefer is certainly not an arbitrary category. Under your suggestion it would be like calling the SMW run "uses Orb and Cape".
grassini wrote:
i think it's a bad idea,because the category removes absolutely all optimizations conceived in the speedrunning community.
grassini wrote:
Your suggestion just seems like those people who want a OoT glitchless intended route speedrun,all tricks removed just run right for great justice all over again.
Absolutely false. Many optimizations are still being discovered in the speedrunning community for glitchless runs of all kinds, even when glitched runs exist. Look no further than PokemonSpeedruns.com and deanyd.net for just two examples. And it's certainly not the case that all optimizations come in the form of glitches.
^It is known that Instant Flee Glitch Moves can change a battle's type when their name is viewed (this is in fact how they work, by changing a Trainer battle into a wild battle so that they can be fled from). In theory, this should also allow that Trainer's Pokemon to be treated as a wild Pokemon, allowing it to be caught ("stolen").
In the Pokemon Red "catch 'em all" run, the only requirements are that you cannot execute arbitrary code and you cannot corrupt Pokedex flags directly. I suppose the same rules would apply here; executing arbitrary code is (barely) possible in Emerald (possibly significantly easier with TAS) and certain flags are corruptible, so the rules would be something like no corrupting the Trainer Card stars' flags directly, nor corrupting the flags that set those objectives (which would include the fact that the Hall of Fame has been entered, the fact that the Pokedex is complete, the fact that the Master Rank Contest paintings have been created, and the fact that the seven Gold Symbols have been earned). According to Bulbapedia you actually only need to complete the Hoenn Pokedex, not the National Pokedex, so in theory the only glitch you need is to use Glitzer Popping to get the few Pokemon that are exclusive to Ruby and Sapphire. But of course doing things like getting an Instant Flee Glitch Move and corrupting Fly locations would make things significantly faster, particularly the Battle Frontier.
grassini : I would prefer a 4 Stars run as getting them in Emerald gives you respect from all the nurses.
It does?
I can't speak for Emerald specifically, but I know in HGSS the Pokemon Center nurses have special dialogue once you have 4 or more Trainer Card stars, such as asking if you want "the usual" when you go to heal your Pokemon.
What relatively "weak" glitches are allowed? Even with that out of the way, how entertaining would it be for the battles to take a while since pretty much the only way to get 100's in a speedrun is to use the xp overflow?
In terms of "no memory corruption", the Trainer-Fly glitch, the Old Man glitch, and Brock Through Walls all involve reading unexpected values from memory, which would classify as corruption. The Poke Doll skip and the Fight Safari Zone Pokemon trick (the grandfather of the Old Man glitch) arguably do not.
Oh - that's another thing I should have pointed out. This hack fixes a few of the glitches present in the original Red, including both of the above non-corruption glitches (to require Twitch to navigate through the Rocket Hideout maze), and I think at least one of the AI bugs where Lance would spam the useless Agility against any Poison-type was also fixed.
As mentioned below the point isn't to grind the player's team to level 100. It's to take advantage of tool-assistance to get through tough battles in a way that no real time speedrunner could.
Pokota wrote:
Call the category "All Badges", for one, since that was something you pointed out in your proposal. As far as no memory corruption and no glitch warps, I propose that a compromise could possibly be reached if Snorlax can be skipped going Vermillion -> Lavender since getting the Silph Scope and Pokeflute comprises half of the midgame fluff.
Between luck manips and the inherent system, I don't think you'd need 100s to take down 100s - in fact I think that's part of the original proposal is to not grind if we don't have to.
"All badges" isn't the best name - incidentally that was what FractalFusion's "no memory corruption" Gold TAS was originally named when the map distortion Gold TAS was published, until someone pointed out that a real "all badges" run would have used at least the instant victory glitch everywhere. (Since then, the discovery of arbitrary code execution has rendered the name "all badges" even more obsolete.) "No memory corruption" as a category name should be fine I think.
The compromise idea is interesting. Not sure if it would end up falling under TASVideos' "no arbitrary goals" policy though, since it amounts to picking one memory corruption skip glitch while avoiding several others. My original intent was to have an "effectively glitchless" run of a Gen I game to contrast with the numerous glitched ones.
Your interpretation in the last paragraph is spot on - Gen I's battle system is simply inherently broken, to the point that even Twitch was able to beat 36 consecutive level 100 opponents in a row without healing, something that would never have been possible in a future game.
Per this post I'd like to nominate 2504M (Pokemon Gold) for Obsoletely Fabulous under the "Obsolete Tricks" tab.
Quoting from the original post:
Zowayix wrote:
It easily fits the "show neat tricks and glitches that are not present in their current equivalents" criterion, using a very visually entertaining map distortion glitch to skip past barriers to the end, without the arbitrary code execution glitch warp that the current publication uses. There is also a sort of precedence, as there is another Pokemon game on that page that completes the game with a glitch not used in its own current publication.
---
As an additional note, I'd like to also nominate 2457M to either supplement or replace the 2434M movie currently there, which is by the same author and which it obsoleted. 2434M uses item underflow to explode the bag and swap items/memory to beat the game, which on its surface is not dissimilar to the currently published save corruption run which beats the game in 1 minute also by exploding the inventory and item swapping. On the other hand, 2457M uses a completely different glitch never used in any other Gen I submission, which is to use the "Cooltrainer" move in battle and take advantage of its glitched effect to execute some very precisely arranged arbitrary code (without ever needing to jump to controller input).
MrWint, author of both movies, covers exactly this himself:
MrWint wrote:
After finishing my first any% TAS on Pokémon Blue (here), I read some comments about how this run is all the same as the save corruption run (here), just with 35 minutes of extra padding to get to that point. In a way they were right, all recent first generation Pokémon TASes are corrupting the inventory to use it as a hex editor, shifting the right bytes to the right places and therefore tricking the game into playing the final cutscene. This makes them look all the same in the end: you scroll through a glitched inventory screen that is filled with hilarious items (e.g. "GARY x97") and swap them around.
It got me thinking whether there may be an alternative way to manipulate the bytes. Sure enough, I found one, which isn't that surprising, considering the multitude of game-breaking glitches that this particular game features. More surprising is the fact that it is actually a lot faster to do than the inventory glitching.
I recommend to watch the movie before reading the technical details below. The movie contains almost none of the usual graphical glitchiness and obvious game breaking that the previous movies had, which lets the end seem rather sudden and magical.
Per this post I'd like to nominate 4563S (Super Mario Bros. Enhanced) and 3273S (Kaizo Mario World 2) for Gruefood Delight under the "Hacks/Homebrews" tab.
Quoting from the original post:
Zowayix wrote:
For the former, it fits in about the same way as Full Moon Mario on that page, being a run that itself isn't bad at all in terms of optimal play but uses a not-very-noteworthy hack. The latter is almost self-explanatory; Kaizo 1's already there.
This is pretty must just to get the idea out there:
Thanks to TwitchPlaysPokemon just having successfully finished their Anniversary Red run with a complete Pokedex, this can be considered a pretty popular/well-known hack.
Unlike the Coin Case glitch Silver run and the Bad Egg glitch Emerald run, the Generation I movies here have no published "glitchless"/"no memory corruption" counterpart. Every one of our current RGBY movies exploits some fairly strong glitch to complete its goal much faster than intended, with the "catch 'em all" run warping everywhere to complete the Pokedex and the "regular"/"no save corruption" run using Brock Through Walls and experience underflow to beat the game even without glitch warps. In fact, none of our currently published Gen I moves defeat any Gym Leaders at all.
A "no memory corruption" Gen I run could be an interesting category to bring back (the same way "no glitch warps" was brought back after item underflow was discovered only to have both routes become obsoleted by Brock Through Walls). Such a run could nowadays improve massively on Tilus's 1:51 record in 2005 by using the current RTA strategy of having Nidoking spam OHKO moves on everything, but I'd like to make the case of using TPP's Anniversary Red hack.
In terms of the hack itself, it's considerably more difficult than any other Pokemon game published here or even any made by Game Freak, with Victory Road at and above level 80 and the League Champion/Rival topping out with a full team of level 100s. While this would usually lead to a grindslog in normal playthroughs, having a TAS crush the game despite this difficulty could certainly be entertaining. The game also, completely unlike the original Red, has a lengthy (but optional) postgame, starting with Dream Red immediately after the Hall of Fame, followed by rematches of all 8 Gym Leaders, an explicit goal to get the Diploma (which requires the Mew sidequest this time), and a true ending that is only unlocked by doing all three of the previous. (As with a game like Emerald though, it would be perfectly fine for a runthrough to stop at the first Hall of Fame screen or at Dream Red.)
Any thoughts?
Difference of night and day for me between this and your first run.
Got me looking forward to both your projects now rather than just the other one after this wip.
^So again, technically the 3-exit run and 11-exit run (both with cloud) are the same category for realtime speedrunners? (3-exit can be separated from 0-exit by the concrete fact that it defeats Bowser, not much concrete separates 3-exit from cloud 11-exit.)
Out of curiosity, I believe the minimal ACE command is simply holding R to scroll the screen right? What machine code does this correspond to?
I would like to make the argument that if ACE is banned for every category except the fastest (barring playarounds), then the stack overflow credits warp movie should be published alongside the current one. It's an entirely non-ACE way to glitch to the credits. Theoretically if it were submitted after the current one as a "no arbitrary code execution" branch, it would have merit.
