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creaothceann wrote:
Downvoted twice for interrupting the Chemical Plant Zone music!
Good, I never liked the Chemical Plant theme anywaysEZGames69 wrote:
Stop destroying youtube’s bitrate, they are currently struggling trying to keep bandwidth high.
No. I must go fast.
CoolHandMike wrote:
Lol are you waiting for the level to catch up to you?
In a way yes. I have to wait for the camera to catch up for the signposts and bosses to load lol
So this encode was made with camhack because the normal ingame camera has a speed cap of 16 pixels per frames which translates to 4096 subpixels per frame. Without a running soft-cap, which prevents your own acceleration from building up speed past a certain point (for Super Sonic that'd normally be 2560 subpixels per frame), it's very easy for Super Sonic to break this.
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TheWinslinator wrote:
One question I've had for a while is there a reason the Sonic 3 TASes don't reset the game to skip Launch Base 2 or the cutscene at the end of Sky Sanctuary?
Ah I was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask this. The main reason for this is gens has no soft reset input. Also I don't exactly know when but this didn't even become a thing until much later on.
Funny enough I still managed to beat the current rta wr in terms of ingame time despite not skipping act 2. I also wanted to include Launch base act 2 anyways as a speed/entertainment tradeoff.
I do plan on revisiting this category in the future when the lack of reset issue is resolved and there have been other improvements found as well.
EDIT: Thanks Ben
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Techokami wrote:
Uhhh... jesus o.o
So here's some things I want to bring up after watching this:
1) Hydrocity Act 2, the death at the start to change the level boundary and allow for underflow. That aspect of it I understand completely... but I've never understood how you actually trigger it, and I don't think any of the past TAS submission notes mention it? There's nothing on the Game Resources page for the Sonic games, either.
Marzojr is the main person who has this documented. He posted it somewhere in the S3K thread but tbh I don't remember where and don't feel like digging it up right now. But I can give you the basic gist of it.
1) You deload the 'walk on water' object. Conveniently the zip I did at 0:25 in act 1 got rid of it.
2) Then you do some object slot manipulation right before the last checkpoint. As I said in the submission text that's what the braking was for.
3) If everything was done correctly the object that's suppose to pan the camera down at the start of act 2 will load in the object slot where the 'walk on water' object was. Once Act 2 loads the game will force the 'walk on water' object to reload in it's original spot, effectively deleting the camera pan object. Since the camera can't go down the death boundary doesn't go down either.
Techokami wrote:
2) Oh my lord, Ice Cap Zone is just skipped. This is faster than any other published run! The current Sonic & Tails run fights Eggman and opens the capsule. Apply this strategy to a run like that and we could get close to breaking the 26-minute barrier...
Well I'm pretty sure there have been more than enough improvements found to get sub 26 in the next Sonic and Tails run.
Techokami wrote:
3) There were several points where watching the camhack encode made me feel... sick. This is due to the game unloading and reloading the level chunks rapidly, so it was flashing the level and a solid color. Probably should have an epilepsy warning on that video and get a standard encode put up ASAP.
Yeah that may not be the worst idea. I myself can't make the encode but I could try to find someone who can. Worst case scenario you'll have to wait until this run gets published.
Techokami wrote:
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I assume you meant to quote my text for MHZ2.
In any case there’s a screenshot of that pathswapper in my submission text. You can only see it in debug if you have sprites layered on top.
Yeah using the one in act 2 would most definitely be faster. Amy has to wait for the red spring to load like Sonic does doesn’t she? You’d literally only save time in Act 1 and maybe save some frames in Act 2 by doing this.
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I suppose I was a little too harsh yesterday. Sorry about that boct1584. Tbh part of the reason I did that is because I was afraid you'd end up confusing SonicFan somehow.
If it were up to me I'd allow him to mention the differences, but I didn't want him to accidentally spawn more of like these.
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SonicFan53 wrote:
Oh. Sorry. (I feel like I'm becoming hugely hated on these forums D:)
Nah you’re not being hated. You may have annoyed others sure but you aren’t being hated.
My comment to you was simply a bit of advice on why you don’t wanna compare bizhawk and gens when you don’t have to. I Also Spikestuff is known for being less than pleasurable as times.
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boct1584 wrote:
I saw your userfile where your description indicated surprise that Gens was faster. Most of the time this is only because gens has less lag than Bizhawk, but the Bizhawk core emulates better, so the lag is SUPPOSED to be there.
Okay look we are well aware Bizhawk is more accurate. However all the tools we use for tasing this trilogy are on Gens. On top of that the only difference (from what I've heard) is lag which objectively speaking is not that bad. So either try to port the tools over to Bizhawk or shut up.
Also Sonicfan53 I would not suggest unnecessarily mentioning the differences between Gens and Bizhawk at all if possible. It could potentially start a flame war like I may have unintentionally done with this post.
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I mean he could do some practice tases on these games like he was intending to. It really helps with learning game mechanics and optimization techniques. I started with these games and I turned out just fine. I do agree that he shouldn’t try to improve the current publications though due to how tight the optimizations are. Especially in the any% runs.
As for the games themselves you really should use gens. There are tools specifically made for tasing the og sonic trilogy on gens which make it much easier to fully optimize these tases. Here’s a link to the forum thread made for these tools.
[url=]http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8827[/url]
There is also an problem with bizhawk I should point out. Most of the experienced og Sonic tasers (including me) can’t actually use it due to various reasons. Meaning we can’t critique your tases because we can’t watch them.
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So I noticed that my Sonic tas is currently tied with Celeste for 1st. I'd like it to stay that way if possible. Without getting into too much detail I think that Celeste tas is very entertaining and very well done. Plus it's a great contender for this particular award. I'd be very happy to share this award with those authors.
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Ok cool I'm glad we're on the same page with the stair clips now. I think I know what you have for SLZ1. Given how hard it is I can help you with that if you want.
Wow it looks like you got better results than I did for the SOZ2 level wrap. Can I have a look at that gmv? Maybe I'll be able to get a level wrap out your inputs.
Oh yeah there are the new discoveries with wheel glitch in CNZ. We may have to tas both wheel and non-wheel glitch because either one could end up being faster. In Sonic's new non-wheel glitch CN2 route there are a few decent sized timesaves we could go for with Tails' help.
That Tails level wrap won't work in S3K. For some reason in S3 alone straight walls don't trigger vertical zips.
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Oh well those stair clips are not too hard for me. S+T is very broken in this regard because they can do a lot of the stair clips HS can plus more.
Here's the SOZ2 gmv and savestate. I think if we get a bit more speed here we will get the proper lineup. The main problem I'm having is that the slopes stop you with most of time.
SOZ2 gmvSOZ2 savestate
That's odd. Dehacked even shows it as a 26 minute movie. Oh well I uploaded it again just in case. I was thinking Tails was boned too because I didn't notice the Down+A until now. I even tried going at it with a bit more speed by jumping from spinning cup above but that didn't seem to work either. Oh well, LBZ2 looks like a fun level anyways :p
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/65058854/anypercent-speedrun.gmv
Here are a few more improvements I thought of for Tails
HCZ2: Faster boss fight by having Tails go above the upper boundary of the boss. Might even be able to get a frame perfect kill.
LBZ2: Possibility of beating the second boss in one pass.
LRZ1: Clip through the collapsing bridges like in my Sonic run. Tails may also be able to take a faster route by exploiting the downward zipping you can do with his flight.
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S+T:
AIZ1: It is possible. I've managed to do it. It seems that one of the new techs you've overlooked is the new way to do stair clips with S+T. Basically you have Tails be the thing that kills Sonic's Horizontal speed. Here's an example.
Link to video
SOZ2: Ah but all that is available. The only problem is this level wrap will be insanely difficult to pull off. (the inputs in the video below are mine btw)
Link to video
DEZ2: You can have Sonic zip left then use Tails to clip into the ground.
For T:
LBZ2: Here, I somehow didn't notice this earlier but Amy did it by doing Down+A.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/202407449/anypercent-speedrun.gmv
My OS is windows 8.1 (desktop) and 7 (laptop). However I've had issues with getting Bizhawk to run on either of them. Also, none of the tools appear to have been ported to Bizhawk. Personally I'm fine with using gens.
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Oh shoot you're getting back into tasing? That's awesome. In that case you might as well have the finished Sonic Alone run. The submission for that should be out soon btw.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/213787753/kaan55%20S3K%20Sonic%20alone%20any.gmv
Here are a few other improvements I can think of right now.
S+T any%:
AIZ1- Do the zip in the beginning of firey AIZ like in NG+?
CNZ2- Can be beaten faster by taking Knuckles' any% route like in my Sonic any% run. Can probably do a better barrel clip with Tails' help.
SOZ2- Possibility of level wrap via light switch glitch.
DEZ2- Faster level wrap by doing kind of a stair clip from the extending stairs.
For T any%:
LBZ2: Possibility of level wrap. If Amy can do it Tails can in theory do it too.
DEZ2: Faster level wrap through first extending stairs. Will probably use similar method to Sonic any%
I can help you optimize. Might not be the worst idea to stair with T any% given how rusty you are.
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TheYogWog wrote:
This was so awesome. Amazing! Thanks for posting. How did you manage to make it back down the mountain so smoothly? I seem to recall that was an issue for me at the time...
Glad you enjoyed it :D
Getting down the mountain was actually quite easy. All I did was land on the steep slope near the top and then run down the mountain. To collect the rings I just slowed down enough to not clip through the floor.
I thought of a better way to handle going up the mountain. Get the camera to max horizontal speed, but don't outrun it too much. I ended up having to kill a lot of my speed before jumping so that I didn't get past the rings before the were able to load.
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Paused wrote:
If everyone involved with the run prefers to do that, then good luck to you. At the end of the day I'm just wanting to see all of your fantastic work again, regardless of how it is presented.
And present it we shall! There's a good chance it'll be me and Evil working on that project so I don't think that'll be an issue.
So I did end up making an Icecap Ring Attack testrun for Knuckles like I said I would. I manage to work out everything that was a concern for this level (well except finding a way to gain control during the 2nd score tally).
Link to video
Here's a somewhat late update on the Sonic any% tas. I looked through the whole tas to see if there were any improvements I missed. I found 2. Once I figure out what to do about Redeye (haven't really attempted it again yet) it'll be ready for submission.
CNZ2- Saved 119 frames by finally making Knuckles' route work for Sonic. Apparently with the barrel of doom clip there was literally only one vertical position that worked because of the bubble shield bounce.
MHZ2- Saved 5 frames after the loop that's after the big ring room. I used a faster exit out of Knuckles' area with the mushrooms.
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Thanks for the heads up about when we need to handle the submission Feos. I'm surprised that nobody has really said anything about this, but Evil and I will also try to get the submission text done before then. We're sorry it got delayed as much as it did.
I'll start with some of the more major stuff like the Icecap signpost monitors.
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TheYogWog wrote:
Hey all. I confess I haven't been following the thread very closely lately but I was just curious how things were going on the Atlas version of the ST rings TAS?
@TheYogWog, Back from the dead I see. Welcome back!
To be honest I'm not sure where Selicre is with the atlas encode after he made that rough draft encode. I'll have to ask him later.
TheYogWog wrote:
Are you saying you managed to glitch into Sonic's starting area in LRZ1 as Knuckles? That's huge, if so! I tried for ages to do this and couldn't, so, congratulations if you did and if so then could you please share more about this?
Wait did you actually forget about that? I figured out how to get Knuckles into Sonic's LRZ1 starting area sometime last year. You even replied to it. Here's the testrun Evil made because of that find.
Link to videoTheYogWog wrote:
Regarding the signpost monitors: interesting, I actually just rewatched the ST rings TAS the other day and I remember wondering at the time whether this very thing might be possible with Knuckles. It's such a cool glitch too, and amazing to watch as a viewer.
Yeah I like that glitch too. I still find it funny that we collect all 5 signpost ring monitors by getting a 2nd signpost.
I'm considering making a testrun for Knuckles in ICZ. This glitch simplified ICZ for Sonic and Tails as it allowed them to start Act 2 from Knuckles' area. With Knuckles however it had the opposite effect as there's now a few things that need to be worked out with himv(mainly the 3 rings before Knuckles' Act 1 boss).
TheYogWog wrote:
That would be pretty epic if the improved version included giant rings. All things considered I think this game genie code would be a reasonable exception to TASVideos rules although I wouldn't necessarily expect them to accept it, and fair enough. S3 Complete being such a well known and well done hack helps the case for using that instead of the official version, but - and this may be a minor issue - it's still not the official version; more importantly, doesn't it also include numerous bug fixes that can't be disabled? From the perspectives of both the author and the audience of such a TAS, that could either be a good thing or a bad thing.
One other option could be to just allow super/hyper transformations.
I mean that pretty much describes my thoughts on the matter. Evil and I already asked about that and they didn't accept it. If you really wanted to you could try your luck in convincing them although I doubt they'd change their minds which is understandable.
Also let's just keep the transformations out for now.
Here's another option. Evil suggested using the game genie code anyways and not submit the run to tasvideos (we'd likely still post updates here though).
TheYogWog wrote:
In any case, one thing to note regarding a Knuckles rings TAS improvement is the (I think) 3 additional rings that may or may not be available to Knuckles, newly discovered embedded in the wall somewhere in FBZ by kaan55 and Evil_3D.
3? I remember there being just the 1 that's similar to the one in MGZ2.
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Oh wow that is an old WIP. I'd really have to go out of my way to do that gravity room skip. I did check the fresh one. Those are pretty nice improvements. I spotted a couple myself.
MHZ2- Amy can do the same stair clip Sonic did right before the boss.
SPZ1- We might be able to do the second clip a bit faster.
Here are a few improvements in my run
LRZ1- Thanks to that new spindash elevator clip I found I was able to save 95 frames. More than enough to not only get sub 50, but to also beat the current 2P time by 15 frames.
HPZ- Saved 1 frame here by activating the teleporter from a lower vertical position which made me land a frame sooner up top. Honestly the only reason I even noticed this is because I noticed a 3 frame time difference between this and the Tails run (I was comparing times out for fun) when a teleporter frame rule lasts for 4.
SSZ- I was able to remove the micro pause I needed previously to manipulate Mecha Sonic's pattern.
DEZ1- Saved 1 frame by braking better for the spindash after the engine room.
The last thing I really want to do in this run is fix phase 1 redeye which is yet again proving to be difficult. This gmv will let you see why.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1566057271/S3K%20Sonic%20alone%20any%25.gmvEDIT: Improved engine room by 23 frames. Still having trouble with redeye though.
gmvEDIT 2: Saved 25 frames in Act 2. This was done in a separate gmv so I won't be sharing this one right now.
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Yeah I've kinda been looking forward the final boss not gonna lie. It always makes for a good finale in these tases :)
WST wrote:
It’s a pity that you couldn’t skip the engine room though. I did it once in one of my old Amy@S3K WIPs, the idea is to go offscreen far enough to fly through that room at a very high speed.
I tried that too with the zip I used to enter the gravity room. The exit was just too out of reach. Can I see that WIP btw?
I did find a fast gravity skip for 2P though.
Link to videoEDIT:Glad I decided to check for improvements. Found a way to clip through the spindash elavator in LRZ1.
