The distinction between "door-warping" vs. "wall-sinking" glitches made sense to me when the full Maxim run was done. This submission is just using that same allowed set of glitches.
Perhaps the branch name needs to be "no warps", then. I realise it's a little misleading, but it would be consistent with the "Maxim no warps" run.
Perhaps it would be easier to understand the goals by renaming the published "Maxim no warps" branch to "Maxim no out-of-bound".
EDIT: Note that the published "Maxim no warps" run does use wall-zipping without going out of bound.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
1) Deaths: We have already rules on using deaths that are sufficient for disallowing unnecessary use cases. That's not the topic here.
2) Penalty on and benefit from continues in arcade games:
Penalty: There are games with penalty on continues and games without it.
Benefit: There are games with benefit from continues and games without it.
_OVER_
My vote would be "Yes, with rare exceptions", but there's no such options in the poll, so I'll abstain.
EDIT: I oppose these biased options.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
MISSION 6 Add coin this time.If player-1 not die.One more group of the enemies' soldiers will climb down. Shortguns are not enough to reach the boss.The mechine gun won't disappear for waiting such a long time in metal slug 1. Hitting boss and control the way he go.
How many actual frames did you save by preventing that group of enemy soldiers at the cost of lives beforehand?\
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Don't you think the death management is a good way to save time?It's great
There's a difference between death management ("I have 2 lives, I can die twice at most") and feeding credits ("I have 2 lives, but I can die as many times as I want because I can give myself as many lives as I desire").
There's also a difference between "you can do something" and "you will do something". A superhuman player ought to be capable of doing many things, while limited to do only a selected few of them in a finite run by the gameplay procedure as well as the decided objectives.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
My plan was to update the GBA core before the v24 release. But I haven't got time for that... unfortunately. Would people mind an essentially (fixed) v20.x release as v24?
Will the GBA core's update cause movies made before/without the fix desync?
Probably. You may always use the v23.x and prior versions (I guess they would be kept being used for a long period as Snes9x-rr v1.43 has been) to watch them.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
I haven't watched this movie yet, but I think I can contribute to the resolution of this dispute. I'll quote some comments from #3025: x2poet's Arcade Metal Slug in 12:23.17 as well as those on this thread.
You mentioned the same thread twice.
Because I posted this on the wrong thread. :/
But yeah I guess it's easier to fix this problem by editing the post here.
EDIT:
feos wrote:
Also, we meant that coins are VIRTUALLY unlimited (as they ARE virtual for we use emulators)
I'd rather see it in a way that the coins can be fed (virtually?) at will.
Whatsoever, my point is that feeding the coins can be managed with skill.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
I haven't watched this movie yet, but I think I can contribute to the resolution of this dispute. I'll quote some comments from #2985: x2poet's Arcade Metal Slug X in 18:24.47 as well as those on this thread.
DarkKobold wrote:
However, the biggest issue is the use of continues, ...
So, essentially, you use money to buy a stronger position, which I would equate to the use of a cheat code.
The game developer, who sets the rules of the very game, permits and expects you (and everyone else) to use money to buy that position! But of course, you can boycott this rule by not taking any advantage from it or even quiting the game.
moozooh wrote:
As much as I like this run otherwise, I have to vote no because it uses continues, and as such cannot be qualified as beating the game.
As it was said, a TASer is a super-human, so he obviously has unlimited money :D
AnS wrote:
Unlike healthbar, coins are unlimited (unless player makes decision to limit the number to some arguable value, like 4 coins per game), so there's little of management skill in distributing coins.
Coins can't be unlimited in any finite TAS, as the player can only feed a limited number of coins due to logical and physical limitations. So a form of distribution of coins will always exist and the player will manage it there.
Also, it is just because being able to feed more than the minimal number of coins required to play the game that there is the coin management skill in a TAS. That's to say, that adds something to the TAS.
AnS wrote:
If coin-feeding is accepted, this will mean that coin-using must be as effective as possible.
darkszero wrote:
I say it's more that the continue was badly planned and executed than the fact itself that you used one.
I'd say the following would increase the entertaining value of a continue in such run:
Add all credits you plan to use at the beginning of the run. Doing so when the "Continue?" screen appears makes it look like "Oh shit, I've out of lives! Where's my extra coin?".
This can be analogized with ammo management. We expect the player to forsee how many ammo he will need and to collect only the necesary amount, but we don't require the player to finish the collection as soon as possible. Couldn't we see it the way that the player forsees running out of lives and just feed the coins at the last moment without wasting time?
Derakon wrote:
Against use of coins:
* Humans judge their skill at arcade games by how many credits they need to complete the game. TASes are superhuman gameplay. Requiring the use of multiple credits is not superhuman.
I think humans also judge their skill at console games by how little they need to use emulator tools to complete the game. Requiring the use of savestates is not superhuman.
By the way, is someone superhuman still human?
KennyMan666 wrote:
Yes you do. Using continues will make it look far, far more foolish.
In my opinion, avoid killing the enemies in a action game, shooting game, etc. is even more foolish (and hypocritical). But there are people who enjoy "pacificist" runs of them. And people can stick to their own opinions. Nothing's wrong.
ALAKTORN wrote:
Atma wrote:
In an arcade game, especially one such as this, 1CCing it (even better if you didn't die) is far more entertaining to watch than sloppy death and continuing, even if there is a speed tradeoff.
not in my opinion, that's subjective
I agree with ALAKTORN on this. See the examples above.
AnS wrote:
So I foresee arcade runs using enormous amounts of coins every level.
But not for every game, I could fortell that, as what has happened to some other categories.
AnS wrote:
Nevertheless I think coin-abusing should have its own category, allowing to have at least 2 TASes for any arcade game (one that uses coins and one that doesn't).
Maybe per-game.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
When is it ready?
When testing on the debug build I got from you, the emulation speed would drop down considerably, to even less than 1 FPS, when using the Out Of Bounds glitch in Wario Land 2.
When I recorded this test movie, I experienced this horrible lag, but it's not there during playback.
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1964900405/WL2%20debugvba24%20test.vbm
The debug build I sent you was not optimized at all. Have you tried the latest svn build of v24?
MUGG wrote:
When is it ready?
My plan was to update the GBA core before the v24 release. But I haven't got time for that... unfortunately. Would people mind an essentially (fixed) v20.x release as v24?
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Is it ok to use the latest revision of VBA to TAS GBx games? Or is it still inaccurate in Emulation?
Assuming that you are talking about that on the v24 branch, there are some facts:
* Movies that desync for the judges are very likely to get rejected.
* We accepted a few movies that recorded with non-stable releases of emulators.
* The GB and SGB emulation in the latest revision hasn't changed much compared to v20. Movies of GB/SGB games usually play fine with v20.
* VBA-rr v20 was "officially recalled" but not disallowed with the rules.
These are some clues, but it's recommended that you should ask someone whose words carry more weight for sure.
And yes, it is still inaccurate in emulation compared to some other GBx emulators (and the real GBx hardware of course), though much better v19.
jlun2 wrote:
Also, I'm curious about differences in lag. What if someone finds an improvement in the old versions of VBA, but finds out due to lag differences, it's slower on the new versions of VBA. Should the old version be used? Or should the more laggier but accurate version be used?
We'll neglect the extra lagged frames if we can be convinced that they result from better accuracy in emulation rather than lazy/sloppy lag control (aka. lag reduction).
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
I keep feeling that SMB3's star has grown to be the most senile and pointless recommendation in the history of TASVideos. Most of the movie time is dedicated to autoscrollers (which don't really change for the better over time), and there are nearly no new tricks compared to Genisto's 6 year old version that would be obvious to newcomers. All the improvements that have happened since then are marginal and esoteric enough to need particular explanation on why and how they're faster. Read this submission text if you don't believe me, and note the amount of frames saved by subpixel management, bankable savings, luck manipulation, lag reduction, and so on.
At the same time, pretty much everybody who takes interest in TASes has either watched one of the SMB3 TASes prior to browsing the site, or watches it among the first movies. If they don't like, or haven't played, SMB3 in the first place, I don't think it goes too far to make the experience appreciable.
SMB2 is a much better candidate in my opinion, no matter warped or warpless. It's no less optimized, but the glitches feel more fresh and unusual than anything seen in SMB3.
We have the same idea this time.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
After watching your run, i noticed this new way of climbing walls, wich i was never aware off (i don't realy like Z4 so i haven't watched it and klmz never told me about that).
Oh, sorry. I've only tested wall-climbing thoroughly in Z4 and roughly in Z1 and Z2. I've never tested wall-climbing in Z3 at all until just now.
Just as that hellagels stated in the post above, this faster wall-climbing trick doesn't work in Z1 or Z2, which made me think that it was merely something enabled with the new modifications in Z4.
However, I do believe that I once talked about possible improvements on wall climbing during private IRC chats with you (and I also suggested you to watch my Z4 movie).
Rolanmen1 wrote:
Also saw all your improvements, and this ru,n aswell the Z1 runs can be improved even more. So i guess i would have to re-do them again. It is sad though, that i get to know all of this so late.
EDIT: Ok, i think i will re-do this TAS from the beginning, but first, i need to be sure that it will be published, because i don't plan to do another 1 hour TAS without being sure, if someone can upload an encode so most people debate if this category can be published.
Such minor slightly-faster-tricks won't make a big difference in the final result. I would estimate a few seconds (10 at maximum provided you might have better luck with RNG) with them. I suggest you not to cancel this submission if you are thinking of that.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
What is the status of this for SNES9x 1.51? I see the note only 1.43 is supported. Is there any workaround?
The status of support of .smv movies of SNES9x 1.51 is that the lastest svn revision of TAS Movie Editor can only recognize but neither parse nor edit them.
The only workaround I can think of now is to use a hex editor as a replacement until someone finish the support.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
The points:
* "Cheat" is not everything called or containing the word "cheat" in a game or a TAS.
Note: Thinking in a different language might help. [/sarcasm]
* Cheating occurs only when the player breaks the rules.
* Inequalities:
(run) rules adopted by player(s) ≠ (game) rules set by developer(s)
(this) TAS community ≠ another community
objectives chosen by a player ≠ community's/usual objectives on games/runs
to fail to realize all the objectives ≠ to break the rules
* There are no laws that work in all possible situations.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
The completion time of Level 8 was 5m23s instead of 5m 24s as I saw after the movie ended. Any explanation?
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
It's believed that waterfalls have more mythical power, but they aren't so accessible as showers.
And I want that brain interface, too, provided that they are disconnected from the Internet so that no craker could troll inside my thoughts.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
If you fix'd the GBA emulation, would runs made with VBA 23 or below sync?
In my original plan, yes, definitely. But I can't answer it now since I changed my plan.
andymac wrote:
Most likely they will still synch, when the devs change the core, they add an extra flag into the movie file to indicate what emulation settings will make the movie synch. This hapenned when they fixed echo RAM.
Work-arounds using flag/switches aren't always feasible.
jlun2 wrote:
I got a question. If a new version of VBA causes more/less lag for the GBX games, then current movies would desync. Does that mean they have to be redone?
Under the rules here? No. However, my speculation is that most people would prefer having TASes played with newer versions of emulators.
andymac wrote:
Sorry to double post, but is there any development for a trace logger in VBA 24? I'm waiting for one for one so I can do SML2 glitched, and see if it's possible to use the pause glitch to complete the game super early.
There is none as far as I know. You may post a feature/enhancement request here to see whether it would interest any dev.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
You all saved me quite much time asking the questions here.
woabclf wrote:
NO NO~
Is the highest ceiling
I feel like seeing your demonstration, too. I'll certainly appreciate that.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
The little shiny flashes along the menu look funny when they flicker rapidly.
I should have realized that no improvement of performce should have been expected until v1.0. I guess I'll resort to v0.9.5 for TASing and then invoke a resync script.
Good job nonetheless.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
I never thought that I would start any topic on this Off Topic forum...
Back onto the topic, now tell me if (you think) you, especially the TASers, are musicians.
I myself, for one instance, have been writing miserable music (I do compare with Beethoven's) since I happened to listen to some serious CDs. I am no way skilled in musical composition, so revising my musical works steals a lot of time from my TASing. Anyway, in this sense, I regard myself as a musician for now.
So why would I bother to ask this question (the one in the title, not this line itself) here? It just occured to me that many TASers appear to be bound up with music. I'm interested and willing to see if this is anything common among the people here.
EDIT: Changed the title to prevent abusing some simple intentional misinterpretations like what pirate_sephiroth wrote:
Yeah I'm the greatest musician in spirit.
I just don't believe in spirits.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
GBA Disney's Kim Possible 3 - Team Possible
Flickering and corrupted graphics.
GBA Drill Dozer
Freezes when you return to title screen from intermission.
The v24 branch inherits the old "1.72" GBA core from v23 without any new modification at the moment. I might get to work on some fixes before it is released.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
microstorage
For now, I have improved the "Maxim Version" by 32 frames. I'll submit this when I'm totally sure that there aren't any more parts can be improved in this.
I'm fed up with frame war...
Fear not. You've performed this perfectly. Congratulations, especially on figuring out how to squeeze through the upper-left corner of the Clocktower room! I never succeeded doing that.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Er, so it seems that my previous post was deleted together with a few others.
I'll announce that my vote is Yes.
But this just seems to be unfortunate timing. Whatsoever, I guess there's always need for someone play the role of "the bad guy".
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Though the game is entirely deterministic, the bruteforce trial-and-error creation of the input sequence over the course of several YEARS deserves some merit. If you disagree, don't vote for it.
I think that is the same situation with Movie #1686M if we only discuss the new "lucky glitches" in it, although Mega Man is indeed a game with "traditional" (pseudo-)random factors that have been familiar to us.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
tried playing fetofs's first 3 maps improvement but it desynched istantly, I'm using VBA 23.2 svn284 or something… help?
Have you tried 23.4?
ALAKTORN wrote:
about the AI thing, if it's the same as AWDS we at least kinda know when it attacks your units with bad match ups, movements though I have no idea about and knowing would be good
The AI may sometimes move its units next to yours but refrain from firing. AFAIK, this rare behavior is at least the key to the fastest Toy Box strategy.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
Someone should crack the AI thing, as quite a few new tactics require strange and rare AI behaviors.
<klmz> it reminds me of that people used to keep quoting adelikat's IRC statements in the old good days
<adelikat> no doubt
<adelikat> klmz, they still do
