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I don’t know which way is better. I’d rather concern about the time management toward Bill & Ben.
Usage of the Gold Statue in jail would be good if you leave Maia in daytime.
praetarius3 wrote:
if you want to really push it don't use the statue either, manipulate the golems to only shoot one MISSile and make that one true to it's name
I’ve read RaneofSoTN’s comment on youtube but I’ve not make sure of it. Is it truly possible?
Well, I think I don’t use str. glitch on boss battle because it’s hard to manipulate. I would use a Dreamsee Herb at Forcena or somewhere in my run though my run is stopped.
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Yeah, it’s too fast.
My suggestions:
1. Using a Dreamsee herb. The problem is the timing.
-When you use the herb in Forthena before the appearance of the cannon, you can talk to a girl in nearer pub. If you hurry enough, you might be able to reach Black Market before break of the day.
-Or using the herb in other places. If you use the herb early, you might be able to fight against Rabite and Rabilion in daytime. It might be faster to fight against them in daytime than at night. But day might break before Bill & Ben.
2. Fighting against some extra enemies.
3. Performing a dance or something else in places for an entertainment though it might be difficult and impractical.
BTW, here is the .xls by which you can foresee what items you’ll get from magic seeds.
-> http://www.mediafire.com/?1kqvp7k1k5i0guq
It was a copy&paste work. The file size is huge (nearly 2MB) and there is a rule to the items from seeds so I probably needed not fill it out.
Unfortunately, I don’t know a rule when the value of 0x7E5F94 comes down to zero and how many numbers are changed by bosses’ explosions and magic but you can foresee the item when you defeat the 7th GB with this file and nJOY’s information without seeding unless the value of 0x7E5F94 is 1.
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I see but I’m learning what items you get from magic seeds and it has something to do with the weapons and armors from w/a seeds according to nJOY. (Google translation is this.) You will probably be able to foresee the items from the seeds easily from the current values.
The problem is how and when to manipulate the value. I think the way will probably be screen transitions at Valley of Flames on the way to Xan Bie. It is basically trial and error.
??? seeds are not used in TAS but I researched a bit. The values of 0x7E5FCA and 0x7E5FCB have something to do with the items you get from the seeds. The value which directly affects the items is that of 0x7E5FCB but both values change each time you seed ??? seed. These values don’t seem to change unlike other values which have something to do with other seeds. They won’t change unless you seed ??? seed. So they can’t be manipulated.
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The weapon from w/a seed is not stronger than I expected. The difference of atk. is only 11pt in Hawk’s case. Considering manipulating not to use item depository, it might not be a good strategy.
I wonder if Demon’s Claw from a magic seed is useful against Lightgazer. I tried seeding a lot of magic seeds. I suspect 0x7E5F92 and 0x7E5F93 like 0x7E5F91 and 0x7E5F94 also have something to do with the items you can gain from seeds.
The values of 0x7E5F91 and 0x7E5F92 directly seem to affect the items you can gain from seeds but the values of 0x7E5F93 and 0x7E5F94 don’t.
The value of 0x7E5F92 doesn’t change by each seeding. It is the value added to 0x7E5F91 each time you seed. It changes when the value of 0x7E5F94 comes down to 0 when you seed. The value of 0x7E5F93 doesn’t also change by each seeding but changes the value of 0x7E5F94 comes down to 0 when you seed.
Except seeding, the values of 0x7E5F92 and 0x7E5F93 change by a certain type of bosses’ explosions and magic but don’t change in Valley of Flames. Of course, they change when the value of 0x7E5F94 comes down to 0 in the Valley.
Note: One w/a seed changes these values as two other seeds do.
EDIT: I'm now searching what items you get from magic seeds according to the values of 0x7E5F91 and 0x7E5F92. I'm going to sum up in .xls.
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I started to think about the usage of Shadow Zero’s Eye and Weapon & Armor Seed. Shadow Zero’s Eye is obtained from Shadow Zero and Weapon & Armor Seed is obtained from Kerberos summoned by Beast Master in Moonreading Tower or Lesser Demon in Navarre in praetarius3’s case.
Note: GameFAQs Enemy/Item List and Monster item list are missing some data. nJOY’s data are accurate.
Shadow Zero’s Eye:
In my Carlie’s quest, I’ll probably need Defence Down only against the final boss since Death Jester and Heath don’t have many HP and they counter against magic. So I’ll probably no longer need Riese. That I have to think is which Hawk or Duran I should choose. And the Eye decreases not only defence but also intelligence etc. It’ll probably be of help.
Weapon & Armor Seed:
The weapons made from Weapon & Armor Seed are stronger than that you can buy at Pedan.
0x7E5F91 and 0x7E5F94 seem the addresses which affect the items you can gain from Weapon & Armor Seed. The values change by a certain type of bosses’ explosions and magic like Stun Wind and Saint Beam(both of the single and all ranged). And they change a lot in Valley of Flames.
On the other hand, I first had thought I couldn’t buy a weapon at Pedan.(It’s wrong.) If Kevin is an only attacker in endgame and Shadow Zero’s Eye is used, my Hawk/Duran might not need to change the class. It’ll save the time of changing the class, shopping and equipping but lose the time of the battle itself.
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Thanks, I see at least the way of inputting keys.
In the meantime, I tried passing through Dorian without taking a damage. (Used the original non-patched rom.) I applied AI-ignorance trick. Monsters seem to be frozen. I think this trick might be used many times in endgame to avoid superfluous lvl up though it might look bad. It might look good to progress while defeating enemies.
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praetarius3 wrote:
Anyway, what I thought of as "new" last time:
when I run and am about to enter battle mode, I can delay this entering by walking a step where I would draw weapon otherwise, then run again; maybe repeat, but I didn't have such a long runnable path yet, or rather I did have such a one, but that was right at the beginning of the game after Hawk leaves Jad where the 2 wolves wait (when someone makes another SD3 Tas get your free 50+ frames there)
Sorry but I may have a misunderstanding about this thing. Would you mind showing me on smv?
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Sorry for a little late reply. I was out on this weekend.
Well, I’ve not TASed around there yet so I don’t know whether it’s improvable or not but it looks good. If I say an improvement, please controll only one character when new BGMs are loaded. It’s slightly faster, I think.
I won’t be able to advise from now on.
Now I’m holding my wip. The 3rd character has fewer opportunities for str. glitch. It means if I choose Hawk, my Hawk is slightly weaker than praetarius3’s. So I’ll take more time to think which Riesz or Hawk is better though I’ll probably choose Hawk.
Instead, I’d rather practice boss battles. I couldn’t even cancel FMH’s HealLight. I feel bad about boss battles. On the other hand, I doubt AI-ignorance trick is almighty. Infinite attacks with L/R or START have higher DPS than double attacks with holding A but they don’t help AI-ignorance trick. I have to test or practice. So I won’t progress my wip for a while.
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Wow, there are many authors. It’s nice to see their cooperating with each other.
I enjoyed the run but the last part of the run is quite similar to 0-star run. So my vote is meh.
But I think if we make a new category, it should be this 16-stars run.
I totally disagree with 70-stars run. If it is a non-glitched run, it should be done by human play. Even if it is a glitched run, it’ll be very identical with 120-stars run.
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Derakon wrote:
neo_omegon wrote:
If you buy a weapon at Pedan, you’ll have to set up glitched Kevin again for the ring menu of the weapon defaults to Kevin’s when you buy.
Can't you hold L or R to have a different character talk to the storekeeper?
Ah, you’re right. Just talking to a shopkeeper not by Kevin works fine. Sorry, I was totally wrong. I must think my strategy from zero.
Well, when I see RTA, I think I need Riese. Riese’s attack is shorter and probably strong around desert. But when I see praetarius3’s wip, I think I need Hawk. Hawk’s double attacks are stronger in the early and middle part of the game and probably make the keeping the game busy trick easy to be done. I’m falling between two stools.
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When it comes to maps, vgmaps have plenty of clean maps.
praetarius3 wrote:
weapons :
...
-last might be in the illusion town Pedan, at least for Hawk/Riesz; still undecided on that one, but definitly no weapons in between gbs
If you buy a weapon at Pedan, you’ll have to set up glitched Kevin again for the ring menu of the weapon defaults to Kevin’s when you buy. Sorry, I was totally wrong.
My GB order is:
Wind – Moon – Light – Fire – Ice – Earth – Wood
(It will be way off in the future and is not tested enough.)
I’m going to set up glitched Kevin before visiting Beast Kingdom. According to my test with savestate abuses, which is not optimal at all, Dangaard battle took much time. (Not the battle itself but the cutscene.) I couldn’t fight next GB at night. So the second was Moon. Then light where I can’t use sabres.
Next three are changeable. There is not much time before Xan Bie use magic so they should be defeated earlier. If I couldn’t defeat Land Umber before their magic, Ice should be later. Last is Wood. Even if I fight against Mispolm earlier, I won’t defeat them before their tentacle attack (Apart from using keeping the game busy trick). With running away from tentacle, their high HP will not be the matter.
As far as time management, this order works perfect. I used a dreamsee herb on the way to 5th GB then I could reach Pedan in the morning. I think reaching Pedan in the morning is more important than any other things. I don’t mind the flight distances. It seems odd while I mind pixel optimizations in my wip.
Ah, I’m thinking I keep night through GBs. It might be wrong in the first place.
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I would rather prefer no-death in my run though it might be arbitrary and impossible, so I’d like to buy armors for them.
Armors upgrade:
-Sultan/Erland (for Kevin)
-Mintos* (for Carlie and Riese)
*Kevin doesn’t change the class so his armor can’t be upgraded.
My weapons upgrade from now on:
-Dwarf Village
-Palo
-Sultan/Erland
And a weapon at Diorre only for Kevin might be considered.
GBs’ HP:
Unless you defeat Dangaard later, total damages you have to give are not so different.
praetarius3 wrote:
earth has a bug where some enemies remain at 28, which i'd find rather useful there (can finish them faster/at all in time).
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You can speak to this corobokkle from the bottom floor. Please don’t forget to use this trick.
EDIT: I checked GBs’ HP though you may have already searched. GBs’ defence is written on this website.
Dreamsee herbs:
Ah, I’m going to buy armors for Carlie and Riese at Mintos after Mana Holy Land though it may not be necessary. If you are not going to visit Mintos, one more dreamsee herb is probably necessary.
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Edmund wrote:
Keep up the good work!
I can't contribute with much but I'm looking forward for this TAS!
Thanks for the comments.
praetarius3 wrote:
With the dwarven weapons Hawk has as much attack as Wolf Kevin (both 44), at least until I glitch Kevin his 8 str (so both have same str, but kevin has his wolf bonus), at least it *should* put kevin ahead, but it doesn't because he lvls in wolf form - at least THIS exact bug will be the driving power behind the 2nd half of the game.
Fixing that via menu is out, as that is slow as hell and there is only 1 boss until the next weapons.
Ah, I was blown my head. I’ve not noticed it. It had occurred in my wip, too. I have to think redoing because with one more str. Kevin can beat each of Zombies and Porons with fewer hits. This bug should be known by RTAtttackers, too. They are probably plagued by the same problem.
This bug seems to be avoided by moving on another screen before Kevin’s lvl up. So I’ll buy weapons at the first visit of Palo.
About your run, in that cave Hawk is better character especially when he is the main character than any other characters.
And exellent job of the battle against JE!
praetarius3 wrote:
just so i remember right, having hawk AND riesz (or in general both characters of same story) adds more "personal" dialog instead of generic comments, right?
Generally speaking, it’s right but it depends on the characters and the scenes. (e.g. Angela and Carlie at the bridge of Cleft of the Earth.)
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I switched Carlie back to computer so she got rigid. You are right. She became invincible against any physical attacks in that battle since I did during her lvl1 tech.
I think too many attacks in short time tend to be “miss”es and Carlie’s attack is weak so that isn’t a big problem.
Saving for TASing this game is that emulator is not desynchable. Mupen64 is very desynchable. And with analog stick, TASing n64 games is much more difficult, imo.
BTW, I’ll stop progress of my wip around Palo. I was going to collect dreamsee herbs around Laurent area but to think of the number of cursor movements of the ring menu, it might be postponed after Black Market though perfection looks nearly impossible. (Of course, I have to do plenty of testing from there.)
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My golem fight. Wolf form of Kevin seems to give damages only by pushing. It's odd.
I had to give up end up displaying “miss”es.
Feel free to criticize.
Sorry, for my bad English.
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praetarius3 wrote:
Ok, I tried to make the golem fight better, but every attempt so far either knocks them even further away from the center or doesn't give a str up for kevin; on one try I actually had the golems down to 0 HP faster, somewhat good aligned for their explosion and the str-up, but ultimately lost ~200 frames because the game couldn't show all damage numbers.... so I'll seemingly have to let it stay this way.
Or you’ll give up str. glitch or redo with a different EXP chart. Did you try keeping the game busy trick? You can use Input Macro Editor to input like “<^v^>” repeatedly.
praetarius3 wrote:
Is it just a problem I have/had, or is it "impossible" to switch characters during that fight? Both characters involved are then "stunned" for quite some time, which is why I have to bear Riesz doing... well nothing at all.
I think 1P and 2P’s positions are related to the character’s action controlled by computer.
praetarius3 wrote:
Golem x3 will probably be the hardest fight to male;
-three of them to keep in place
-6 hits to connect and make to not miss for each button push
-negate not one but three bosses their spells
At least I won't have to watch where I kill them....
I think the first Golems fight is difficult than the second fight. The first attacks at the second fight are able to be evaded and you don’t have to defeat them at the very exact position like the center of the bridge. Sabred and boosted Kevin gives many damages. Each of his lvl1 tech gives ~160x2 damages. Unless you use str. glitch, it won’t be so difficult.
Ring menu in routine seems different from that in events.
My set up:
Carlie: spells/sprites(only Jinn from now)
Kevin: items/items(Mirror of Illusions)
Riese: spells(?)/sprites(Wisp and from Tropical Island)
Item user can’t move so Riese’s routine menu might be set to be items.
praetarius3 wrote:
were it 4 ropes?
tzenker, fire stone, 2x enddungeon?
or did I forget one again?
I think so(4 ropes). In my case, 2.
praetarius3 wrote:
dream herbs:
-one for fire/ice region
-one during gbs*
-one for enddungeon
Yes. Mine will be the same. And I wonder if plus one before Ghost Ship in order to fight against Gorva at night if it’ll save time.
In my case, I was going to get through Mirage Palace with 4 herbs at first but I may be able to do with 1.
And thanks for frame testing.
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I thought it was necessary to beat 3 enemies to use str. glitch but 2 enemies seem to be enough for Kevin according to my wip and your wip though I don’t know in other situations.
praetarius3 wrote:
I'm curious as to why you haven't gotten any dream herbs yet.
It’s because the ring menu in events. In Carlie’s quest 2 characters’ ring menu should be made to be set sprites while 1 character’s menu should be made to be set item.
I wrote:
Ring Menu in scenes:
-Due to a little auto-movement in the scenes main character should use fairy in WaterFallCave and Jinn before Laurent.
-When a character leaves at Ghost Ship, his/her menu defaults to magic. If they don’t learn any magic, it defaults to item. I’m going to make Carlie leave there though I’ve not tested the battle against Gorva at all. So I have to postpone collecting the herbs until someone uses Wisp before Dwarf Village.
-In Carlie/Kevin’s quest someone has to use Mirror of Illusions so their menu should be made to be set item.
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Good thread. People here are missing a lot of TASes there, imo.
Well, I think that the problem is that we cannot directly contact many of the authors. So we can’t get a movie file when we’d like to refer them.
Another problem is language version when it comes to submitting. They make runs for Japanese audience so Japanese version is preferable there. When we suggest their submitting, friction occurs. Those who don’t know the situation easily vote no while we suggest their submitting. It’s very rude.
And when you search the site for "TAS", you see a lot of TASes here are mirror-uploaded without the author’s permission. Some may not agree with mirror-uploading without their permission. I personally don’t think it’s a problem because the uploader tells the author’s name to the audience and almost all the comments from the audience are favorable.
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I progressed up to just before Golems fight. Kevin and Riese got lvl just before Cleft of the Earth. I think it is an advantage.
I didn’t take much time for a 3-player controllable run but it doesn’t look bad, imo. I’d like to show what a 3 player controllable run would be like.
Ah, I saw an odd thing. Positioning players on the exact position before the event is sometimes slower though I just confirmed at Cleft of the Earth.
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I wrote:
If you reach Forthena at night, you only have to talk this girl at the pub in order to make the cannon appear. It might be faster but you have to use a Dreamsee Herb before you get a Chibikko Hammer when you progress the game at a normal or a little faster pace.
I was stupid. I finally understand it’s slower because you have to fight against Golems in daytime and use a dreamsee herb at Palo. In the first place, I was wrong because I thought Golems’ first Drill Missiles were able to be dodged. So I planned on not healing from Jad to Golems in order to reach Forthena in daytime. But I was totally wrong.
And I thought getting one dreamsee herb and using a Gold Statue at jail and the herb instead of staying at INN. But you can’t run away at the first battle screen in Jado. So it’s slower. (I feel at ease because I don’t have to redo WaterFallCave.)
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I bleached out my inputs during Heal Light animation of my FMH fight in my wip by hex-edit but it caused desynchronization.
So inputs even during magic/special attacks must affect RNG though I don’t know the exact address of RNG.
EDIT: I checked GBs’ HP though you may have already searched. GBs’ defence is written on this website.
Dreamsee herbs:
Ah, I’m going to buy armors for Carlie and Riese at Mintos after Mana Holy Land though it may not be necessary. If you are not going to visit Mintos, one more dreamsee herb is probably necessary.
This bug seems to be avoided by moving on another screen before Kevin’s lvl up. So I’ll buy weapons at the first visit of Palo.
About your run, in that cave Hawk is better character especially when he is the main character than any other characters.
And exellent job of the battle against JE!
If you reach Forthena at night, you only have to talk this girl at the pub in order to make the cannon appear. It might be faster but you have to use a Dreamsee Herb before you get a Chibikko Hammer when you progress the game at a normal or a little faster pace.
