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Posted: 6/12/2011 8:37 AM
Post subject: Ninja Senki
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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Ninja Senki is a lovely freeware platformer. Go play it! I've begun work on an All-Coins TAS using nitsuja's Hourglass. I have a WIP through level 2 here and YouTubed here. I'm currently working on improving a few things in level 2, and I'll start on 3 soon. There are 16 levels in total, and I make no promises about when I'll be done. I'm planning to continue mirroring the two-act world structure in my movement styles, as I have above. I'll do the first level of each world pretty straightforwardly, and the second with some kind of obvious style. In this game, as long as you are holding right, you are moving right as fast as you can, which makes this a reasonable thing to do. I don't quite have 8 distinct ideas yet, but I have several, and I'm sure I can keep it up. This game is pretty straightforward. I'm not aware of any abusable glitches at the moment, though I'm keeping my eye out. The tricky part of TASing this game is holding and releasing jump for the correct number of frames to not overshoot ledges or lose too much vertical speed. I haven't got this down to much of a science yet, I'm mostly relying on doing it a few different ways, seeing which is best, and then trying a few values near that one. One important thing is that if you release jump for only one frame before you double jump, your double jump will be very weak and (so far) useless. This may come in handy sometimes though as well. If you want to run my input file instead of watching the shitty youtube encode, set the framerate to 60 fps and ignore the exe mismatch that you'll probably get if you downloaded Ninja Senki recently. There don't seem to be public version numbers, but I assume the author made some minor change at some point. So far it doesn't seem like an issue, but please let me know if you experience any desyncs. Feedback, criticism, and help are all very welcome!
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Posted: 6/12/2011 4:49 PM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Your movie synced fine on my end. The style of killing enemies looks kind of sloppy to me, since there are unkilled enemies that could have been killed without wasting time, as well as missed shots. (It's ok to demonstrate how the shuriken stick into walls, but maybe it's better to do that in places where it's clearer that you're just fooling around, such as on screens that have no enemies.) Maybe it would also look more interesting/varied if there were more cases where your shuriken is 1 pixel away from missing the enemy or where you kill the enemy on the last frame you possibly can. Also, since your movie currently syncs with both versions of the game in question, and probably only the newer one is being distributed at the moment, I suggest you download and switch to the new version when you continue recording. (But keep a backup of the old one somewhere, in case.) EDIT: And the title screen looked pretty suboptimal (I think you can press the button to advance much earlier than that).
Personman wrote:
set the framerate to 60 fps
That's stored in the movie file, so there's no need to tell people what framerate to use.
Posted: 6/12/2011 8:49 PM
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ALAKTORN
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Joined: 10/19/2009
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DS TAS of 2012
this game is awesome, I love you for making me know it also I agree with nitsuja about the TAS I might get interested into TASing this myself, maybe I'll be able to help you some edit: btw, I think a TAS should go for highest score possible, which means killing as many enemies as possible (unless there are really many places where avoind them skillfully is that much more entertaining) / or that could go in a separate submission edit2: I only just noticed, why do you take all coins?
Posted: 6/13/2011 12:17 AM
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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
I thought about killing all enemies, but decided that later in the game it would be way too boring/time wasting, since there are enemies that come from behind you, or aren't on the optimal path (even in level 2, I would have to backtrack significantly at around 1:50 to kill all enemies and get all coins. In level 3 it would be much worse, and then much later in, I forget, 14 maybe, it would just be awful). I tried to only use extra shuriken when it made a huge flurry of them that looks cool, as at :50 and 1:51, or when I liked the effect of leaving one behind at each stair at 1:57. I agree that the missed and extra shuriken around :16 and :37 look bad. It would be super cool if there was an easy way to correlate positions in the input file with frame numbers so I could go take them out! I'm not sure about the title screen. I did try to get it on the earliest frame (even when you press the button on the earliest frame, it takes a while to fade out) but I also ran into some crashes when I tried to load savestates around there, so it could be that the actual best time to press it is on a frame that made it crash. I tend to like variety in my TASes more than killing every enemy on exactly the last possible frame. It opens up neat things like 'jumping on his head' at :24 and mixing up the order and timing with which I shoot at the ghosts from 1:02 to 1:05. Those are some of my favorite bits of this so far, so if they don't work for you I'd love to hear why.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Posted: 6/13/2011 12:36 AM
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Lex
Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I agree with your assessment of entertainment value. The "flurry of shuriken" idea is awesome.
Posted: 6/13/2011 1:08 AM
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nitsuja
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Computer TASer of 2011 TAS of 2011 First edition TAS of 2011 Computer TAS of 2011 Sega TAS of 2010 Sega TAS of 2008 Sega TAS of 2007 Glitchy TAS of 2007
Personman wrote:
It would be super cool if there was an easy way to correlate positions in the input file with frame numbers so I could go take them out!
Take the frame number times 8, add 1024, and that's the number of bytes the input is from the start of the file, which should be easy enough to change in a hex editor. The full movie format description is here. But it would be a good idea to start over at some point and see how much you can improve it, especially if this is your first TAS.
Posted: 6/13/2011 3:03 PM
Post subject: Re: Ninja Senki
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Zeupar
Joined: 5/14/2007
Posts: 525
Location: Pisces-Cetus filament
I like what I see, Personman. Nice game choice. Good luck with your first TAS.
ALAKTORN wrote:
edit2: I only just noticed, why do you take all coins?
Personman wrote:
I've begun work on an All-Coins TAS
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3 xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D Help improving TASVideos!
Posted: 6/13/2011 3:08 PM
Post subject: Re: Ninja Senki
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ALAKTORN
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Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
Zeupar wrote:
Personman wrote:
I've begun work on an All-Coins TAS
oh wow, I missed that whole paragraph and I have to say, I don't agree with that, taking all coins isn't entertaining and if you're gonna do that you might aswell go for an highscore run, which would have to take all coins too imo this game should have 2 categories: speed and highscore, highscore killing all enemies and taking all coins, speed going through the game as fast and as entertainingly as possible currently your run doesn't fall in either category, I'd vote no if it were proposed for publish
Posted: 6/14/2011 8:17 AM
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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Highscore is meaningless in this game due to the level 6 boss, which produces infinite points. All Coins seems like the only meaningful additional goal, and adds some more interesting pathing. I don't really understand your statement that 'All Coins isn't entertaining' while you acknowledge that High Score, which is a superset, would be a worthwhile goal choice (if it were meaningful).
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Posted: 6/14/2011 10:11 AM
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ALAKTORN
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Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy
DS TAS of 2012
Personman wrote:
Highscore is meaningless in this game due to the level 6 boss, which produces infinite points.
you seem to be missing the part where there is a timelimit
Posted: 6/14/2011 10:49 PM
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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
You seem to be missing the part where the time limit doesn't kill you.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Posted: 6/14/2011 11:05 PM
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ALAKTORN
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DS TAS of 2012
wow, seriously? what's the point then… *tests* but you're right… edit: btw, I seem to have saved 31 frames just at the starting menu compared to your run, nitsuja was right edit2: but honestly I'm curious to know what the maxed score (without lame tricks) would be, it's too bad this game isn't programmed properly :( have you certainly tested that Boss 6 keeps on spawning infinite enemies and that they keep on giving you points? (I don't actually remember which it is, but I'm guessing that one that spams Ninja that give 1 point each?)
Posted: 6/14/2011 11:57 PM
(Edited: 6/15/2011 12:55 AM)
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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
The point is that time gives you bonus score. I think it's a great system, really. It is kind of unfortunate game design to have a score that seems to be meaningful but that is in fact rendered useless by one boss. However, I'm glad it is that way, since it makes it clear that a high-score run is stupid, which I strongly believe it would be anyway. I guess it would be worth testing to see if the gray ninja are actually infinite, though of course there's no way to prove the positive. Testing 50 sounds reasonable? I'll try it soon. EDIT: Proof that more than 50 ninja spawn, and that the timer running out at the boss doesn't behave differently. Levels 3-6 are terrible, mostly just me getting there in real time, ignore them. If anyone wants to see if they run out at 100 or 1000 or 9999999999, feel free to start from here...
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Posted: 6/15/2011 12:01 AM
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ALAKTORN
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Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
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DS TAS of 2012
Personman wrote:
However, I'm glad it is that way, since it makes it clear that a high-score run is stupid, which I strongly believe it would be anyway.
no it's not <_< 50 can be a start, if they keep giving points I might test it myself to higher digits when I have time
Posted: 6/15/2011 1:29 AM
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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
The reason I think that it's stupid (and of course you are free to disagree, and free to make your own run, though I think it would be cooler if we were working together if you end up wanting to work on this) is that you already get to see plenty of each type of enemy getting killed in a normal run, and it's not very different each time: you throw N shuriken at them on autofire and they die. Killing every single enemy doesn't demonstrate anything new, it doesn't add very much interesting route planning but DOES cost time in many places where you have to turn around or backtrack, and it removes three major sources of entertainment: near misses, tricky dodges, and taking damage to save time. There are also some enemy types (the turtles in world 2) that take forever to kill, and killing all of them would be ridiculously boring when almost all of them can be jumped over or run through faster.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Posted: 6/15/2011 6:28 AM
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ALAKTORN
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DS TAS of 2012
I'm not sure how to work together through the forum, and with movie files that aren't hexable also the fact that I don't like the "All Coins" goal for pretty much what you said about highscore, loses time and doesn't demonstrate anything new I might start my own run that goes for pure speed, though I don't know what running method to use, that constant jumping you do seems boring to TAS edit: I take that back, it's possible to hex input, then if we were to team up I guess each one could do a level? then hex it all together
Posted: 6/15/2011 8:35 AM
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ALAKTORN
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Joined: 10/19/2009
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DS TAS of 2012
I've hexed together a perfect (should be) menu to your run, 35 frames saved total, I think http://www.mediafire.com/?pe5o77t6akoa5zp and I noticed that you don't press away the time-to-score screen at the end of each level (just need to hold a key I think), that could also be hexed but I didn't feel like it because seriously I had no idea how to do it and it took me a lot just to put the menu together I hope I have a better understanding of it for any future hexing now, this game looks like it could be highly hex-friendly
Posted: 6/15/2011 9:32 AM
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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
Hey, thanks! Wait, am I really that dumb though? I was sure I tested pressing buttons during the bonus time screen... (I'm booted into OSX at the moment, can't test it) As for the constant jumping, it's not meant to continue throughout the run. As I said in my OP, my vision was to have the first level of each world be done straightforwardly, and the second with some kind of movement gimmick. For World 2, I think I want to do some beat-matched jumping, since the theme has a nice rhythm for it. If that doesn't interest you, that could be a good way to divide up the work -- you could do first levels, and I could do second levels. I would be fine with giving up the all-coins goal. I thought it would add entertainment, but you're probably right that it's not worth it. My next steps are going to be to download a hex editor, clean up some of the unnecessary shuriken in level 1, fix a couple points in level 2 where there are some frames to be saved (mostly due to walking off of ledges instead of jumping such that I'm falling down more quickly by the time I get there), and see if you're right about skipping the time bonus. If you want to start work on level 3, awesome! If not, I'll get to it eventually :) And if so, I'll start on 4.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Posted: 6/15/2011 9:50 AM
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ALAKTORN
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Posts: 2527
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DS TAS of 2012
sounds sweet, I'll try level 3, dropping the coins goal edit: I currently have the game's window blocking my view (read dev topic), anyway just wanted to say that moving backwards while in the air slows you down by 1 pixel, so it probably can't be abused like in say SMB :( max run/jump speed is 1.5 pixels (1, 2, 1, 2 ecc)
Posted: 6/15/2011 2:50 PM
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ALAKTORN
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DS TAS of 2012
that took… 5 hours?!? how's that even possible O_o and 1100~ rerecords later… Stage 3 is done note that at least for me, the movie freezes in every place I used a savestate for a few seconds… I don't know why anyway, I don't know if I want to continue this, this game is incredibly hard to TAS (for my standards at least)… if I don't post otherwise I won't be doing more levels
Posted: 6/15/2011 4:18 PM
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ALAKTORN
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DS TAS of 2012
here's a horrible encode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqqiYizrCpA @Personman: it's not true that you keep full speed by simply pressing a direction, there is acceleration so running against a wall while falling down / jumping up is slower, the first level is very improvable on that (haven't checked second) edit: something that might be entertaining at the end of lvl1 could be jumping up and get hit by the shuriken and getting bumped into the finish door without losing time (it might even save time if taking damage boosts you, I haven't tested); but looking at your encode it doesn't seem possible to do it, shuriken is too far ahead if you're going to remake lvl1/2, here's what I think can be improved (other than not running against walls, and jumping down ledges because walking down is slower): 0:47 of your YT vid: try using a double jump to get up there, instead of jumping twice 1:28: looks like you got slowed down by the ledge there, jumped too late boss: try a single big jump to start attacking sooner, then double jump to get on the top platform
Posted: 6/18/2011 5:28 PM
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ALAKTORN
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DS TAS of 2012
@Personman: are you still working on this?
Posted: 6/19/2011 1:09 AM
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Personman
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Joined: 4/20/2008
Posts: 465
I'm busy for the next few days doing things that require me to be running the OSX side of my Macbook. But yes! I'm going to do the hexing stuff I said, and see about incorporating your level 3, in ... I dunno, maybe a week? We'll see. Getting this done ASAP is not really something I can prioritize, but it's definitely something I'm going to see through over time.
A warb degombs the brangy. Your gitch zanks and leils the warb.
Posted: 8/22/2011 3:23 PM
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ALAKTORN
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DS TAS of 2012
I take it you’re not going to continue this?
Posted: 11/11/2011 5:40 AM
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ALAKTORN
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DS TAS of 2012
ALAKTORN wrote:
I take it you’re not going to continue this?
seems like it anyway, I wanted to dump some info: I’ve been racing this game, and somehow got a huge damage boost off of an enemy one time… I was shooting at more or less the same time, but I’m not sure how it happened. I think I was pressing right without jumping
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