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Post subject: Re: rupee game
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jprofit22 wrote:
when the rupee game resets every 4 frames is each instance a random event or is there a set pattern. its really pissing me off. ive tried to change my route multiple times to get the best pattern for the rupee game, but because i'd like to have at least 4 50's it becomes optimal sometimes to get the one on the left and sometimes even the right one. any input would be greatly appreciated.
Well... even though it's called luck manipulation, you still need a bit of luck with the frames you have to wait to get good randomness. Just make sure the part before the gamble cave is optimal, and then there is nothing else you can do. Even if you have to wait quite a few frames, getting the 50-rupee in the middle is usually faster, as getting it at a side takes quite some time. Either way, feel free to post a wip if you want some feedback on it.
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thanks baxter. i was afraid each event was random. i dont think im going to get a headache over it since im not actually submitting this run and if i decide to try a 100% i will only need 1 or 2 50,s so it should not be such a hassle. heres my WIP into lvl 1. enjoy. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/197485363/zeldaswordless2.fcm
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btw i forgot to mention. the run im doing now is more of a minimalist run than swordless as i do not collect any heart containers or any unnecessary items except for the lion key because it makes things a bit easier with my route plan. also i did not include the screen-scroll glitch because this run is for fun only and the game flows better without out of room traveling. of course it would be included in any submittable run.
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Looks pretty good... I know it's not for submission, but I'll post a few possible improvements, as you might be interested: - The boost (for instance at the start) sometimes caused Link to have to walk an extra half a tile. While it might still have saved time in some cases, I sometimes felt a little better manipulation would be possible. - Probably by entering the room which has the first 30 rupee cave at a different frame, the long wait before the creature appears can be avoided. (Same for the "expensive!" shop later on.) - The room you enter above the room at level 3 where you have to kill the red darknuts, the room where you got the key... I would suggest not to get this one, and get the one in the third room of the level instead. (No extra screen transitions are needed.) - The darknuts in the room before the raftroom possibly could have been manipulated better... this seemed rather slow. - Not getting the triforce with full health is NEVER good. It always costs more time than taking the damage saves. - I think placing the bomb for the gamble house from the side is a frame or so faster than placing it from the bottom. With the randomness, it's unlikely that this makes a difference though. - You can virtually instantly reenter the gamble house after leaving, by pressing right or left to make Link walk back upwards again (this should obviously be done before it causes Link to eventually walk leftwards). Also see the published TASes for reentering caves if you don't know what I mean (for instance level 3 is reentered in the published first quest TAS). - Using the glitch for going through blocks, but not for the screen is a bit strange, but it's your movie, so I don't mind or anything :) Most people woudn't even know you went through a block in that dark room at level 4 :P - The room right before getting the ladder looked VERY nice. - You sure that getting the key from the room to the right in level 1 is faster than exiting and entering again? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Either way, it looks pretty good, certainly for a run just showing a concept, which isn't really for a submission. I hope (and think) you will learn a great deal from this :)
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i have indeed learned alot from your input. i did notice that sometimes the enemy boost isnt as lucrative as it may seem and you have to take that extra step but as you said you still save frames by doing it. i didnt know about being able to instantly go back in to the rupee game. this could help some. with the screen scrolling glitch, can you also go west and east or does it only apply to north/south? some of these questions may seem silly to you but when i tried to download the 2nd quest tas it wasnt synchronized properly and sketches out after the second screen scroll glitch. i was going to use it as a reference point but have had only the forums and my own testing to go by. about key pickups: i need 17 keys to complete the game or 12 keys to get the magical key. i have changed lvl 3 to include the key pickup in the third room. but i try to acquire keys that i dont necessarily have to kill enemies and wait for. although, i guess room transitions take more time than manipulating enemies so they can be killed quickly. my route at this point looks like this- -30 rupees -continue -bombs -raft -continue -lvl 3 triforce -continue -rupee game -candle -ladder -continue -arrows -meat -continue -bow -lvl 1 triforce -wand -lvl 6 triforce -continue -magical key (may not be necessary) -lvl 8 triforce -lvl 2 triforce -whistle -lvl 5 triforce -continue -lvl 4 triforce -whistle to lvl 3 -lvl 7 triforce -whislte to lvl 1 -enter ganon's room and hold up the triforce FTW!! -getting the raft before the triforce tested better in the swordless than the other way around since i have only bombs -i need the arrows immediately for lvl 6 and the meat later for lvl 7 so this is obv why i go there after getting the ladder. i could get the arrows on the way to lvl 6, but im pretty sure this is the optimal route at least for these two items -i need to spend more time planning my key pickups so i can decide whether or not to get the magical key. somehow im sure its much slower than just picking up 17 keys since most of these are directly on the path and its only 5 more keys if you dont get it -the rest of the route is pretty self explanatory. i dont think much will change with the end of this run unless somehow its faster to do the dungeons in a different order -is there any way to out of room travel in dungeons? i havent seen anything about that and it would obv be of great service to someone who doesnt have a sword and would like to see the credits :) anyway thanks for all the info! i guess ill get back to being an FCEU zombie for the next 7 or 8 hours!
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jprofit22 wrote:
with the screen scrolling glitch, can you also go west and east or does it only apply to north/south?
You can also go west and east. Once again, watch the second quest movie. You should have FCEUX to watch the fm2 file. Otherwise, you can always download the avi instead.
jprofit22 wrote:
about key pickups: i need 17 keys to complete the game or 12 keys to get the magical key.
Is picking up the magical key allowed in a minimalist run?
jprofit22 wrote:
-i need the arrows immediately for lvl 6 and the meat later for lvl 7 so this is obv why i go there after getting the ladder. i could get the arrows on the way to lvl 6, but im pretty sure this is the optimal route at least for these two items
I think getting the arrows on your way to level 6, and the meat in between level 8 and 2 is faster.
jprofit22 wrote:
-i need to spend more time planning my key pickups so i can decide whether or not to get the magical key. somehow im sure its much slower than just picking up 17 keys since most of these are directly on the path and its only 5 more keys if you dont get it
I'd also think it's slower... in the regular first quest run, all keys are right on your path, and not a single extra room has to be entered to get some key.
jprofit22 wrote:
-the rest of the route is pretty self explanatory. i dont think much will change with the end of this run unless somehow its faster to do the dungeons in a different order
There is a route change which I'm sure is faster. If after level 5, you whisle to level 3 instead, to do level 7 before level 4, then you can reset after level 7 to go to level 4. The reason this is faster is because you can't really whistle right after level 7. Whistling will cause the level to open up again, and not make Link warp. You would have to move down one screen in order to whistle. Changing the order of these last two levels will avoid this, since you can do a reset after level 7.
jprofit22 wrote:
-is there any way to out of room travel in dungeons? i havent seen anything about that and it would obv be of great service to someone who doesnt have a sword and would like to see the credits :)
No, it's not possible to do the screen glitch inside dungeons.
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jprofit22 wrote: with the screen scrolling glitch, can you also go west and east or does it only apply to north/south? You can also go west and east. Once again, watch the second quest movie. You should have FCEUX to watch the fm2 file. Otherwise, you can always download the avi instead. jprofit22 wrote: about key pickups: i need 17 keys to complete the game or 12 keys to get the magical key. Is picking up the magical key allowed in a minimalist run? jprofit22 wrote: -i need the arrows immediately for lvl 6 and the meat later for lvl 7 so this is obv why i go there after getting the ladder. i could get the arrows on the way to lvl 6, but im pretty sure this is the optimal route at least for these two items I think getting the arrows on your way to level 6, and the meat in between level 8 and 2 is faster. jprofit22 wrote: -i need to spend more time planning my key pickups so i can decide whether or not to get the magical key. somehow im sure its much slower than just picking up 17 keys since most of these are directly on the path and its only 5 more keys if you dont get it I'd also think it's slower... in the regular first quest run, all keys are right on your path, and not a single extra room has to be entered to get some key. jprofit22 wrote: -the rest of the route is pretty self explanatory. i dont think much will change with the end of this run unless somehow its faster to do the dungeons in a different order There is a route change which I'm sure is faster. If after level 5, you whisle to level 3 instead, to do level 7 before level 4, then you can reset after level 7 to go to level 4. The reason this is faster is because you can't really whistle right after level 7. Whistling will cause the level to open up again, and not make Link warp. You would have to move down one screen in order to whistle. Changing the order of these last two levels will avoid this, since you can do a reset after level 7. jprofit22 wrote: -is there any way to out of room travel in dungeons? i havent seen anything about that and it would obv be of great service to someone who doesnt have a sword and would like to see the credits :) No, it's not possible to do the screen glitch inside dungeons. <---PWNT!!!!!!!!!![/quote]
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FWIW to add to the discussion on how to finish the swordless movie (a debate which has gone on for years)... I've come to believe this is the best way: zelda_swordless_ending.fcm Simple and fast. Link doesn't go back and grab the wooden or magical sword, but he doesn't die. This "technique" was discovered long ago by Sleepz, and was used in Phil's April Fools' submissions where it is labeled as beating the game.
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hanzou wrote:
FWIW to add to the discussion on how to finish the swordless movie (a debate which has gone on for years)... I've come to believe this is the best way: zelda_swordless_ending.fcm Simple and fast. Link doesn't go back and grab the wooden or magical sword, but he doesn't die. This "technique" was discovered long ago by Sleepz, and was used in Phil's April Fools' submissions where it is labeled as beating the game.
I don't know if it is any better than getting yourself killed. I'm still in favor of a magical sword only run.
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Baxter wrote:
hanzou wrote:
FWIW to add to the discussion on how to finish the swordless movie (a debate which has gone on for years)... I've come to believe this is the best way: zelda_swordless_ending.fcm Simple and fast. Link doesn't go back and grab the wooden or magical sword, but he doesn't die. This "technique" was discovered long ago by Sleepz, and was used in Phil's April Fools' submissions where it is labeled as beating the game.
I don't know if it is any better than getting yourself killed. I'm still in favor of a magical sword only run.
As am I.
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I vote for the freezing glitch ending that hanzou posted.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
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Yah i like the glitch as well. And since this is a minimalist run I'm doing it's either that or the wooden sword (and I don't like touching some dirty old man's wood). I think I'm gonna do the glitch. Anyways, i started a run and decided to use the screen scroll glitch. I'm sure I don't know all the implications but its definitely ridiculously faster just with what I've done with it. Here's a WIP a bit into lvl 6. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/681886382/zeldaswordless2.fcm I botched a few things so far. The first time through the 3rd room in lvl 3 is pretty bad. I can still optimize enemy movements in some rooms but seeing as though there's only one of me and I don't want to spend a year of my life perfecting the whole run (may end up happening anyway), then sometimes I settle. Feel free to give any feedback, comments you'd like to share. Enjoy! P.S.- can anyone tell me why when I save after getting the ladder it automatically starts me with the candle instead of staying on the bombs?
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I'm also in favor of the freezing glitch. No time is wasted getting a sword, and it's not too anti-climatic because the game no longer accepts input, not to mention you don't have to die. What causes that, anyway?
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awesome! like i said i haven't tested the implications of the glitch, but i guess now i must... thx again Baxter! ;)
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I like the idea of the freeze glitch myself: The goal is to never use a sword. As a TAS, we must not fail in our goals. Ganon can't be defeated without a sword. As there is a conflict between game physics and the goal of the "perfect" player, this results in a paradox. Therefore, the game freezes in a state of quantum indecision when two absolutes collide. That is how I'd put it. Other than adding my voice in the support of that particular ending, I have nothing further to add.
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adelikat wrote:
I vote for the freezing glitch ending that hanzou posted.
I agree. The freeze glitch would add more entertainment value to me than simply dying or even grabbing the sword to beat the game.
i see...
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I still think deliberatily freezing the game is a horrible idea, but whatever.
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If this is legit, would it be of any use for a full swordless run? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqf9-bWDRgw&feature=related
Of course, I could be lying.
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After forgetting this run for a long time i decided to work on it some more. I decided to get the wooden sword and beat Ganon to get a traditional ending so really i would call this run a minimalist as opposed to a swordless. I am currently at Ganon and had a question about his positioning. After re-watching the first quest run i have come to believe that Ganon's position after getting hit depends on your position when hitting him? It seems link runs around and hits him from many different angles. Is this just for aesthetics or does it manipulate Ganon's position? I'm having trouble geting him to stay still. Any help is greatly appreciated. Edit: In case neone is wondering I collect the wooden sword only after obtaining all 8 triforce peices and only use it on Ganon
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You can find an fcm of this run up to Ganon here: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1972140556/Zelda%20Minimalist%20TAS.fcm The re-record count is a bit skewed i think and is more in the range of 15k or so. There are lots of improvements possible here dealing with enemy manipulations and item usage (especially in some darknut rooms), cutting down on the menu screens accessed. I do believe the route is fairly optimized. Mostly what I would change is key collection and enemy manips. Enjoy and feedback is appreciated.
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According to http://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/563433-the-legend-of-zelda/faqs/42006 (down near the bottom), there is a pattern to where Ganon appears. Personally, I didn't see it when I did a three heart run on my NES, but it may be more obvious with slowdown and savestates.
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Thanks skater. Im sure there is a pattern to Ganon's movement but I still think it has to do with Link's positioning and/or where you hit him from. If you watch the Ganon fight in the TAS the runners get Ganon trapped in a single position for most of the duration of the fight. Baxter where are you for the answer??!! :P
Post subject: Zelda Minimalist in 27:52
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As it turns out Ganon was a piece of cake, albeit my fight with him wasn't very flashy. (Hmm microstorage is being a fukkr. I'll link the fcm as soon as possible.) I have restarted and been playing like a fiend and have a new run with some overworld movement and enemy manipulation optimizations. I am about 450 frames ahead of this movie going into level 6, and have found a skip that looks to save ~20-30 seconds (which is ultimately why I decided to redo the run). I doubt I'll post any of this movie till it is completed considering the lack of comments/feedback I've received on this one.
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Here is the finished fcm of my minimalist 1st quest run in 27:52. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1889836921/Zelda%20Minimalist%20TAS.fcm
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