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NES TAS of 2021
Aha, I knew my death at the glove was a bit slow, but saving over a second there is very unexpected. Nice one. How did you save 3 frames taking the jar? I assume there's some method to be at a higher speed when you take the jar that I simply overlooked rather than being further to the left.
Arc
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Inzult wrote:
How did you save 3 frames taking the jar? I assume there's some method to be at a higher speed when you take the jar that I simply overlooked rather than being further to the left.
1. At the top, I did a max jump instead of a min jump for greater gravity acceleration. 2. Optimal subpixel position. 3. At the bottom, I did a max jump instead of a min jump to grab the jar earlier. Also—referring back to the red and black elevator chart—on the elevator with the moa, your X-position ended up at 120.128, and so the screen exit shifted a pixel to the right and cost you 1 frame.
Arc
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32419467284213329 Starting the Island. 167 frames saved total. New time savers since last post: 10 frames - Midoro second p-bag. Used the long-downstab (dongstab) on the ironknuckle. 17 frames - Helmethead. Pretty similar to the Horsehead fight. Horsehead is taller and takes 11 hits instead of 12. 1 frame - Midoro crystal. You can Up+A 1 frame earlier than in Parapa, for some reason. 5 frames - Island overworld. Real interesting one here. You can manipulate the enemies that appear on the island overworld by delaying Link's exit from the 'fairy required' room. But, at first, it all seems to balance out. Delaying 1 frame in the fairy room means waiting 11 frames on the overworld for the enemies to get out of the way, for 12 frames total. Likewise, delaying 6 frames in the fairy room means waiting 6 frames on the overworld, for 12 frames total again. Every delay between 1-6 frames ends up being 12 frames total. But, when you delay 7 frames, you get fairies on the overworld instead of enemies. And you don't have to wait at all for them. So the net result is 12-7= 5 frames faster. I haven't got Magic Container 6 from the cave yet, because it isn't required for Island. I'm not sure how well known it is that although the number 300 appears when you kill Rebonack (boss of Island), he actually gives 301 XP. So I'm going to go into the fight with 899 XP to show the glitch. There's no unnecessary XP in the run.
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Arc wrote:
I'm not sure how well known it is that although the number 300 appears when you kill Rebonack (boss of Island), he actually gives 301 XP. So I'm going to go into the fight with 899 XP to show the glitch. There's no unnecessary XP in the run.
I know that people who run the game know, but even sort of enthusiasts who linger in the Zelda 2 twitch channels tend to be surprised when it's pointed out.
Arc wrote:
5 frames - Island overworld. Real interesting one here. You can manipulate the enemies that appear on the island overworld by delaying Link's exit from the 'fairy required' room. But, at first, it all seems to balance out.[...]
I think I've mentioned it in the past, but delaying frames in rooms further back from the last room you're in changes the overworld spawns in different ways. I'm not sure what seeds the RNG, but there are a lot of options for manipulation, if you have a lot of rooms before the spawns happen. It goes without saying I didn't worry too much about doing this 100% optimally.
Arc
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Those 5 frames might make a big difference. Including them, I've gained 32 frames in the Island area. But, I'm currently in a situation like Death Mountain, where I'm stuck on the wrong side of a death cycle. This time I'm 2 frames away from the next death cycle. As it stands now, my 32-frame gain would drop to only 21 frames. But if I cut 2 more frames before the death, then the gain would become 42 frames. One way or another, I have to get the 42 frames saved, although I might lose some of those frames post-death. Putting off XP until later is the 'bad solution.' I could cut the frames by skipping the paltamu and getting a small p-bag later. But that would change the Big 6 p-bag drop enemy. That's bad because getting the bag drop at the locked door doesn't require any slowdown. So 2 bad p-bag pickups post-death might not even be worth it, timewise. Maybe instead I could skip the first helgooma (100 XP, no 6 count) and get 2 small bags. The four spots I could theoretically save 2 more frames are the first helgooma, the blue paltamu, the key, and the red paltamu. But they're already the main reasons I've saved as much time as I have.
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The next big 6 enemy after the red IK at the door is another red IK in front of some glove blocks, which force you to stop. So It shouldn't waste additional time, I don't think. If you can also get a small P Bag to drop from a sword beam wrap, I think it could be possible to not have to slow down there either. Alternately, you could pick up a blue jar after the first door, change the P Bag on the red IK to a red jar, and be able skip the first key all together, I think. But then that's 200 XP to make up, and I'm not sure how that would work. Even more alternately, you could spawn a red IK at the entrance in stead of a jar, pick up a blue jar before the raft, then skip a paltamu. IKs are easier to kill without slowing down. e: i think the last 2 require picking up the magic container. unless i'm mathing wrong.
Arc
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I found a good solution! I saved 2 more frames at the red paltamu (at the elevator)... with no subpixels to spare. Since Link needed to change direction, I stabbed the wall and my rightward speed dropped faster, so I stayed more to the left. And I have the exact amount of XP I wanted! This is what TASing is all about! It's not just problem solving, but not knowing whether there is a solution at all. I went through so many creative possibilities; it's great to see a successful result. If it hadn't worked, I think the 'even more alternately' idea might be the best option, although logistically difficult. I would need the Magic Container and 2 small jars. Skipping the first paltamu would save only 13 more frames for me. I'd have to get the second jar from the bot at the locked door with a swordbeam to have a chance. I'm glad I don't have to deal with it. Overall time saved currently is at 206 frames, with Rebonack as the next major issue. Almost at the halfway point!
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Inzult wrote:
Arc wrote:
I'm not sure how well known it is that although the number 300 appears when you kill Rebonack (boss of Island), he actually gives 301 XP. So I'm going to go into the fight with 899 XP to show the glitch. There's no unnecessary XP in the run.
I know that people who run the game know, but even sort of enthusiasts who linger in the Zelda 2 twitch channels tend to be surprised when it's pointed out.
Carock, too, and anything else that's supposed to give 300 (don't think there's any?)
Datacrystal wrote:
0x01DDDC - Low byte Experience Points Type C (0300)
(mapped at e.g. 0xddcc) is 2d instead of 2c (DDCC:2c:2d = genie gxksksix (what a phonetic treasure)) Fascinating about the exit moving a pixel sometimes.
Arc
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32621147682080338 210 frames saved overall Island time savers (48 frames): 5 frames - overworld 9 frames - helgooma & paltamu 11 frames - key & helgooma 9 frames - elevator paltamu 8 frames - death cycle difference 2 frames - key 2 4 frames - Rebonack I had trouble finding any radical ways to improve the Rebonack fight. It's a 3-part fight. Phase 1 is getting him off the hoverhorse. I didn't see any alternative to the 'ride the dragon' method of maintaining the downstab until he starts to turn around. Then jackhammer him. Any change in movement ruined the jackhammer. Phase 2 is the race to the bottom right corner. I stayed a pixel lower, but any change to the fighting style failed in the long run. Phase 3 is getting him to move left for the finishing blows. The slight improvement came here. Now there's a lot of walking, so the routing differences will be the interesting part.
Arc
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The Reflect Trek was more interesting than expected. I found a way to achieve the mythical fairy trap. Because of the positioning, it didn't save as much time as I'd hoped, but it took many hours just to get this version. The whole 11,000-frame sequence has interconnected RNG, so I tried many combinations over many days. The net result of the whole sequence was a 54-frame improvement. Most of it is from the fairy trap and avoiding the obvious 32-frame loss from the step up and back down to escape a random battle in the published movie. So, 264 frames faster overall currently.
Arc
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WIP7: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/32911194607222369 274 frames ahead currently. I stopped at the screen before Carock because here is where the route diverges. I looked over the new plan once more, and it still seems like it will work. To recap: it will save 213 frames immediately because of fewer level menus, but the savings will slowly decay over the rest of the run. I expect the bosses to lose 100-110 frames, and then the questionable part is how much I will lose from (1) the different route in the Sea Palace and (2) killing 3 orange gerus at Attack 4 instead of 5. My estimate is no more than 20-30 frames lost. I did the wizzrobe screen 3 frames faster, but I needed 3 frames to manipulate their positions, so the net result is 0. But it looks cleaner. I did the ironknuckle screen 11 frames faster by killing it as fast as possible and getting into perfect subpixel position for the elevator. I had to delay 1 frame to get a jar drop instead of a p-bag, so the net result is 10 frames. That's the only time saved before Carock in level 4.
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This is really something. Keep up the good work.
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I became a member after twelve years of lurking just to let you (Arc) know that there are more people eagerly following and appreaciating your updates. Great work (again), and looking forward to the next update.
Arc
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Inzult wrote:
This is really something. Keep up the good work.
Kung Knut wrote:
I became a member after twelve years of lurking just to let you (Arc) know that there are more people eagerly following and appreciating your updates. Great work (again), and looking forward to the next update.
Thank you. You can follow my spreadsheet of notes, if you really want to. I'm going to have to delay 1 frame when entering Carock's den, because I got an impossible pattern going straight in. He was on the left side of the screen the whole time, and then his 8th appearance (the deathblow) was on the far right. The pattern for the 1-frame delay version looks fine. I was looking at the Sea route, and I'll lose a little more time than I thought. It shouldn't be enough to threaten the route yet, but the potential gains continue to fade. I realized that I need to understand how the blue drippy things work, because it would be best if I could turn that blue drip into a small jar. It's still possible without it, but the time loss would be worse.
Arc
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Blue Drippy Things The issue here was that the blue drops were acting the same way as red drops—splashing on the ground without becoming a bot. A bot is very useful here for a small jar drop. The answer in this case was not creating a frame delay. The problem was too many enemies had already spawned. Therefore, the solution is to kill a mago in the room. Then a bot will form when the blue drop hits the ground. Frame delays can manipulate mago spawns and drip colors, if needed. It's a normal bot that counts toward the small 6, so it will yield a small jar. (Some of the blue ironknuckles don't count toward the large 6.) Long story short, the new route still looks better in theory. Without this jar drop, I would have started doubting it. When I get to the river devil, it should be more clear whether it's faster or not.
Arc
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It looks like the new route idea is dead. The worst part is that it's completely possible with perfect planning; it's just a little slower. We start with the 213-frame leveling advantage. -5: No fairy on red ironknuckle screen (but you can kill them without time loss) -24: Boss Gooma (best case scenario, initial attempt was more) -0: Baby gooma (best case, can cause lag with his million maces) -69: Route difference to River Devil (tested, I expected only 10 or so) -0: Geru #1 (best case, untested) -18: Geru #2 (tested) -24: Geru #3 (tested) -8: Rebonack II (untested) -60: Volvagia (untested) -38: Thunderbird (untested) --- -236 The comparison for the route difference uses the current movie, so the difference may actually be greater if I save time in the Sea Palace. The gerus are necessary to get the large 6 drop in the Rock. So after all this work, I think it's settled that the current route was right all along. This video shows what the plan was for the alternate Sea route and why the blue drippy things mattered. Link to video
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I guess flute second only really worked in the older movie on account of what the levels happened to be, which is too many. Too bad.
Arc
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The flute-second idea is definitely dead, but I just came up with something new that kind of hybridizes the two ideas. We keep the same macro levels (Attack 5 after the Maze), because we saw that the new idea doesn't work. But, I noticed that it takes about 76 frames to refill the magic/life at the end of the Sea. I think that we can get to the crystal with full magic/life without losing much time. On the last screen before Gooma, I could get a magic drop from the orange ironknuckle before the locked door. That would set the Big 6 count to 0, but then I could use the plan for Rock that I had before: 3 gerus, 2 red ironknuckles, and the drop from the stalfos. I think that the only time lost would be 5 4 frames lost on the red ironknuckle screen in the Sea and the time it would take to pick up the jar from the orange ironknuckle. The third geru could lose some time as well because of its awkward position, but it was only 24 frames with Attack 4. It could be 0 now. The death cycle in the Sea could also result in frames lost, but no more than 21, if it happens. It could also be 0. I'll have to check the timing there.
Arc
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Update on the timing of the new micro-route: I forgot that the death cycle would reset any frame differences before that point, so I didn't lose the 4 frames at the red ironknuckles (nor gain the 2 frames getting the jar). Both movies were on the good side of the death cycle. I'd have to improve 16 frames to save another 21. So the actual differences in timing: -1 frame manipulating magos at the elev since I can't take damage -1 frame of lag at the hidden jar because I have swordbeam -16 frames getting the jar from the orange ironknuckle +80 frames from no refill at crystal --- +62 frames gained so far The only thing left is the third geru, which should lose no more than 20 frames, making it still a net gain. Total frames saved at the moment is 350, not counting potential geru losses. My initial attempt at Gooma saved 3 frames; I'll spend a little more time on him.
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Very excited for the finished product, keep it up!
Arc
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Thank you. The endgame is near. Timing updates: I knew that the river devil trap manipulation would be a pain. I spent a long time on it. In the end, my options were to take the high route and lose 18 frames or take the low route and lose 14 frames. The published movie got basically a perfect enemy spawn. Like the Darunia overworld part, it's beyond the limits of human patience to test every possible combination. I lost 1 frame at the first rock gerus, and then I gained 1 frame back at the other rock gerus. Everything that happened after this part is good news, though. I got a perfect overworld walk (no frame delays) to Kasuto, which saved 6 frames. The dreaded third geru screen lost only 5 frames (plus 1 for manipulation later). I also got a perfect overworld walk to the Rock Palace, saving another 16 frames. So, even though I lost the 14 frames earlier, it's theoretically possible that this interconnected route chain is optimal, since I gained more frames back later. The other good news is that I realized that the extra enemies that I killed will give me exactly 3000 XP, and so I will level up to Attack 6 before the Rebonack II fight instead of after. That should save an extra 5-10 frames. 352 frames ahead right now.
Arc
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Inzult wrote:
I know there are lost frames on the Barba fight. Realized I made a mistake when I changed where I took the sword level in the currently published TAS and didn't start attacking soon enough.
Are you sure? I've improved Volvagia by only 1 frame. When I try to attack any earlier, I don't have enough Y-axis height to maintain the jackhammer attack, so Link falls. There was one instance in which I could attack slightly earlier, but it lead to a longer wait in the middle of the fight while waiting for enough height to resume attacking. It was a few frames slower in the end. Nevermind, I figured it out. Went over your notes and the old TASes. In the Rebonack II fight, I saved 25 frames. It wasn't really because of the higher attack level. I somehow discovered a method that killed him crazy quick. I'm 391 395 frames ahead after The Rock. The endgame is here.
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Arc wrote:
In the Rebonack II fight, however, I saved 25 frames. It wasn't really because of the higher attack level. I somehow discovered a method that killed him crazy quick..
Can this method be applied to Rebonack I in future runs?
Adventures in Lua When did I get a vest?
Arc
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Pokota wrote:
Arc wrote:
In the Rebonack II fight, however, I saved 25 frames. It wasn't really because of the higher attack level. I somehow discovered a method that killed him crazy quick..
Can this method be applied to Rebonack I in future runs?
I don't think so. Link has to attack Reb I 12 times after Reb I dismounts, whereas it takes only 4 attacks after dismount for Reb II. Reb I would survive the attack and fall backward.
Arc
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Let's talk about The Valley of Death Trap 18 is the most dreaded part of the game, because it depends on luck that is mostly unmanipulable. Like any trap square, you need overworld enemies to run into Link as he is walking onto the trap square in order to overwrite the forced encounter with a shorter random encounter. You need the same thing at Trap 17, but that one is easier to manipulate. You can keep creating extra delay frames during the walk from Trap 16 to Trap 15 in order to change the random enemies that appear in the graveyard between Trap 15 and Trap 17. Eventually, you get a result that works. The result that I got lost 2 frames compared to the current movie. However, here's why the Valley of Death between Trap 17 and Trap 18 is so notorious. You have to deal with 3 sets in a row of 3 enemies that you cannot change with overworld movement delays. And you get only one step down to avoid an enemy that appears in front of Link. Look at the TAS history (6 movies) of this part: -The first movie completely gave up and accepted the forced encounter -The next two movies entered and exited the forced square and then waited for enemies to spawn again. -The fourth movie was the first to actually get the random encounter, after taking a bit of a winding path. -The fifth movie looks like a downgrade, walking backward at one point. -The current movie is super lucky, basically. But I found that you don't have to completely accept the 3 sets of 3 enemies that you're handed. You can create delays at Trap 15 and Trap 17 to change the timing. But, it's limited. In my case, I was limited to only 6 possible combinations: -Straight through -Delay Trap 15 -2x Delay Trap 15 -Delay Trap 17 -Delay Trap 15 & Delay Trap 17 -2x Delay Trap 15 & Delay Trap 17 Any additional delay at Trap 15 changed the enemies in the graveyard to an unusable grouping. So I was limited to testing these 6 options. If you get a set of enemies that surround Link, you can pretty much forget about using that option at all. So I narrowed it down to 2 options that actually had a chance of working. The first option decided to throw in yet another degree of difficulty by not letting enemies rise up from below Link. And nothing is coming from the left, leaving the top as the only possibility. Nothing worked. Fortunately, after many hours, I found that there was one way to make the second option work without an ugly winding path. It still lost 27 frames. But, if that last option hadn't worked, I would have been faced with much greater losses, probably in the 60-90 frame range. So, despite losing frames here, it's the best possibility of a bad situation. It won't look bad to the casual viewer. I topped out at 396 frames ahead; down to 367 now.
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