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Posted: 4/17/2008 12:25 AM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I merely state this fact over and over again because a judge, who determines whether runs should be published or not, looked at how that mupen records resets. The reset command is given to the emulator, not the ROM itself, which is opposite to how all other accepted record reset emulators work. So, a mupen which does not record resets the way the judges want them to, likely will produce runs that will get rejected because of this.
☣ Homepage ☣ Retired
Posted: 4/17/2008 12:32 AM
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
While I respect the judges' decision, I disagree with such a ruling. Soft reset functionality for N64 is not available in ANY emulator. I do not believe it is a simple thing to implement. While that shouldn't alter the decision, what should is the fact that the current reset method simulates the machine being turned off then on again, which is pretty much a cold reset. Until I hear a specific reason for such functionality to be rejected (rather than merely preferred over a soft reset) I will refuse to agree with said ruling of the functionality and believe it to be complying with bizarre rules for such a case.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Posted: 4/17/2008 1:24 AM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
I don't think this argument has been said before, so here is my take. A TAS is a superplay, which sometimes takes death as a short cut. Death may or may not cause a warping of some kind, but either way this is acceptable. I do not think that resetting the whole system should be acceptable, because it doesn't seem as though a Perfect Dark TAS is a "Perfect Dark Super Play" i.e playing the game from start to finish in one sitting and one power on. An example of resetting where I believe is acceptable is X-men where resetting does not change the state of the game (by using a soft reset, in this case, brings up an error message like that in DOS.) The game is still running, as a single-powered on run to complete the game. The way we are talking about this run makes me feel like it should be billed as individual level run, NOT a TAS of the whole game, in its entirety. Hopefully my argument made some sense, 'cause I can picture my argument in my head but I sure as hell can't write it down >_>
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 4/17/2008 3:22 AM
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Bag_of_Magic_Food
He/Him
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
What about Sonic Advance 3? Was it acceptable to reset in that just to switch characters faster to improve individual level times?
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Posted: 4/17/2008 4:06 AM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
Well, BoMF, I didn't research well and as such had no clue there were other runs that did the reset thing. Also, any thing I could come up with for rebuttal would be running around the same circles (Hard reset is a cold start, soft is a warm(?) start,) which doesn't help any of us reach an answer... so I will just duck out after saying my two cents ^_^;
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 4/17/2008 9:56 AM
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Dromiceius
Joined: 10/3/2005
Posts: 1332
Raiscan wrote:
While that shouldn't alter the decision, what should is the fact that the current reset method simulates the machine being turned off then on again, which is pretty much a cold reset. Until I hear a specific reason for such functionality to be rejected (rather than merely preferred over a soft reset) I will refuse to agree with said ruling of the functionality and believe it to be complying with bizarre rules for such a case.
I would like to quote this for truth, but with swearing. Swearing and fist-shaking.
Posted: 4/17/2008 11:23 AM
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Wyster
Active player (302)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
I think that really detracts a lot from the run, don't you think? There has got to be some other way the entire run can be recorded. I remember L4yer had no problems at all in getting to the next level. Also, in order to record the resets, are you using the record reset mupen? (I thought you were using the anti-desynch mupen...) You know the resets offered by that mupen is not accepted by the judges, right?
So well here's my thoughts on this: First of all, L4yer only did one level Defection, and the glitch which prevents going to the next level is as far as i can see random, i did manage to get past defection, but there's no way to determine if a run will proceed or not. Theoreticly i could do investigation over and over again until it works(Which would suck for a whole run) And about the Mupen version, i'm actually using Anti-Desynch. I dunno really why resets work, might as i mentioned before be some unexpected bugs in it, like other players trying to play my m64 or something. About the judging thing, what no one has considered is that this is a pretty unique case, no other game REQUIRES resets to complete the game. The only way we will ever see a full run is by either resets or a better emulation. In other words, judges can't really use general ruling in this case. My general opinion on this run is that the most important thing is to get a run viewable for the masses. Now if it gets published as a normal run or perhaps as some exception case doesn't really matter. No matter where this is leading i will probably continue this run as planned, hopefully a decision about it will be made long before i'm finished.
Posted: 4/17/2008 1:19 PM
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Sticky
Joined: 2/26/2007
Posts: 1365
Location: Minnesota
Although a pain in the ass for the encoder, perhaps another avi that has the resets cut out, and the level runs stitched together into one long play through?
adelikat wrote:
I very much agree with this post.
Bobmario511 wrote:
Forget party hats, Christmas tree hats all the way man.
Posted: 4/17/2008 3:50 PM
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Wyster
Active player (302)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
I had a similar idea / \, think that'd be best for the video itself but also obviously not publishable in the same way that other movies does it. Anyway, tried some more Extraction today and it seems to be working fine. Tried playback from beginning, save state before reset and after reset. Since it's a fairly simple level(Though i expect it to be the most entertaining tas so far!) i estimate i'll be done with it tommorrow unless i have something better to do. Edit: Okay this reseting thing appareantly causes pretty bad desynchs. I've done the beginning of Extraction after alot of struggle but then i try to playback from beginning and...Desynch immideadly. Since i'm really not in any mood to redo everything and watch through entire run every time i check for desynchs i'm gonna finish extraction like i started and provide a savestate for it(that should work for other poeple than me right??). So well with this i can pretty much screw the reset plan. Instead i will do TAS'es for every individual level, Hopefully someone can encode all of those and either: 1: Mix them all together in a single avi file. 2: Upload TAS'es for individual levels(though i guess this site doesn't do that stuff?) 3: Do with them like most of my TAS'es, make some useless uploads to youtube where poeple can comment them with "OMG HOW DO YOU DO THAT???".
Posted: 4/17/2008 7:21 PM
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Comicalflop
Editor, Experienced player (734)
Joined: 6/13/2006
Posts: 3300
Location: Massachussetts, USA
Speedy TAS of 2009
I would love to encode and upload to the youboobtube, but sadly after the point where you made the Co-op TAS I haven't been able to make any of your.m64's play back correctly.
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Posted: 4/18/2008 10:30 AM
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Wyster
Active player (302)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
Hm that's too bad, oh well i'm sure someone else can do it. On another note Extraction is totally gonna crush the wr. I was able to use the Secret Agent strat on PA saving a buttload of seconds. I'm expecting a time around 1:15'ish maybe? (Beating the SA wr by 5ish seconds and PA wr by 17 seconds).
Posted: 4/18/2008 6:27 PM
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mr_roberts_z
Former player
Joined: 7/21/2006
Posts: 747
Location: Northern Hemisphere
Whether reset-recording is allowed or not, great to see that this is continuing.
Super Mario 64 TASes and stuff.
Posted: 4/19/2008 7:42 AM
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Wyster
Active player (302)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
Well if it's allowed or not is no longer an issue since i wont be using the reset anyway. I will TAS every level from now on in a seperate M64, Then if those are to be encoded into 21 seperate vids or mixed together to a single file(which i'd prefer) is yet to be determined. I guess publication is no longer possible but at least we'll have a full TAS of this game.
Posted: 4/20/2008 9:40 PM
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Wyster
Active player (302)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
Alright, sorry for double posting but: Extraction Perfect Agent 1:07(!!) 8 seconds below estimate, 25 seconds below wr! By far the most insane and entertaining vid so far in this run(Though there are some upcoming levels like Villa that are gonna be possibly even better). I'll post M64 tommorrow, would be awesome if someone could make vids of the runs i've made so far... Btw, extraction proceeded nicely to Villa without any problems. Though as i mentioned in my earlier post in no longer matters.
Posted: 4/21/2008 1:44 AM
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mr_roberts_z
Former player
Joined: 7/21/2006
Posts: 747
Location: Northern Hemisphere
Great to hear! So again, you're using reset Mupen, right?
Super Mario 64 TASes and stuff.
Posted: 4/21/2008 7:46 AM
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Wyster
Active player (302)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
Again, i'm using anti-desynch. So no. Still looking for someone to make vids...Otherwise i'll digicam some vids.
Posted: 4/22/2008 3:10 PM
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nfq
Player (94)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
Wyster wrote:
3: Do with them like most of my TAS'es, make some useless uploads to youtube where poeple can comment them with "OMG HOW DO YOU DO THAT???".
*rolling on the floor without laughing*
Wyster wrote:
Alright, sorry for double posting but:
double posting is not such a big deal. i don't even care if someone quad-posted. so... where's the m65. btw m64 is the name of some galaxy
Youtube channel | Goldeneye and PD TAS times
Posted: 4/22/2008 6:45 PM
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Wyster
Active player (302)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
http://download.yousendit.com/C3F92DE44255C856 http://download.yousendit.com/D230592127C8934E Savestate for Extraction + M64
Posted: 4/22/2008 7:48 PM
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nfq
Player (94)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
desyncs after reset and loading the state makes mupen shut down
Youtube channel | Goldeneye and PD TAS times
Posted: 4/22/2008 8:22 PM
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Wyster
Active player (302)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
I knew it would desynch after reset but i dunno why it shuts down after loading state...?(loading from savestate prevents desynch for me) I assume you loaded it after the first visible frame appeared?(the one with the version number and stuff) I guess it's also possible that the savestate thing only works for me? I really dunno how thing work. Worst case scenario is that i'll be forced to make vid myself i guess. Which sucks since i can't do that in Vista. Would have to use either digicam or one of those nice screencapturing programs.
Posted: 4/23/2008 12:10 AM
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Weatherton
Experienced player (608)
Joined: 10/23/2004
Posts: 706
N64 TASer of 2016 TAS of 2016 First edition TAS of 2016 N64 TAS of 2016
Hypercam 2, unregistered trial would work: http://www.download.com/HyperCam/3000-13633_4-10004511.html
Current Project: - Mario Kart 64
Posted: 4/23/2008 3:40 AM
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bkDJ
Joined: 7/26/2006
Posts: 1215
I'd do it but I can't even watch it. is there some trick to getting this game to save? game pak doesn't show up, and when I say the controller has a mempak, it says it's inserted improperly. (because of this, I can't even get past the "select agent" screen) edit: but I can watch everything after the savestate though, if you only need that in video form...
Posted: 4/23/2008 5:53 AM
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Wyster
Active player (302)
Joined: 9/2/2006
Posts: 504
edit: but I can watch everything after the savestate though, if you only need that in video form...
Yes! That would be great! I still need the other levels captured but i'm sure someone can do those. I'm a little confused though about how to make those vids, if Def/Invest should be part of a single vid or all levels in diffrent vids? I mean Extraction/Villa/Other working levels could be a nice segment but i suppose it won't make that big a diffrence from every level individually captured. Oh well, I will most likely start up a new M64 for Villa(one that works for everyone =P) unless someone really doesn't want that. OTherwise i guess it's time for route planning.
Posted: 4/23/2008 10:15 AM
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Raiscan
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 1235
Location: United Kingdom
nfq wrote:
desyncs after reset and loading the state makes mupen shut down
You're not trying to watch it with anything other than antidesync mupen are you? The savestates are different in this particular version of mupen.
<adelikat> I am annoyed at my irc statements ending up in forums & sigs
Posted: 4/23/2008 12:57 PM
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nfq
Player (94)
Joined: 5/10/2005
Posts: 1204
Raiscan wrote:
You're not trying to watch it with anything other than antidesync mupen are you?
no, but i got it to work now because i didn't use the "load as...". however, even though i use the save state it still desyncs after the reset. maybe my computer is too slow, i don't know if that should affect anything though.
Youtube channel | Goldeneye and PD TAS times
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