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who needs charge beam when you have a lot of missiles? http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1290684729/draygon%20cf%20ammo%20underflow.smv http://www.twitch.tv/wildanaconda69/v/52631676 super metroid is drunk today also.. this trick should speed up almost all published categories
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The real question is, should it be allowed? This is pretty glitched giving you all those Missiles and Super Missiles. I'm on the fence about it right now but, I would still like to here other opinions on this.
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That was wonderfully entertaining, sniq, and Anaconda's one of my favorite Super Metroids streamers. Thanks! EDIT: I'm not sure why it would be "disallowed," at least as far as tool-assisted runs go. I did see a bit of that discussion in the chat replay, but as far as TASes, we're all about achieving one-in-a-thousand results.
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one does not simply disallow all the cool things
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This is a really nice find! Honestly, I don't know about using this in a no major glitches run. Although this is a glitch, I see it a bit like the GT code, where you just find the fastest way to trigger the code and there's no more challenge in the game. It's like an infinite ammo trick which kills any manipulation the TASer has to do for better refills. In regards of the any% run that Taco has been working, it would change from something really unique, entertaining and new to something rather boring, IMO. I think there has to be a limit for what should and what should not be allowed, when it comes to certain cathegories. This would be, in my opinion, something to include in a major glitches run.
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Well said Reeve, you wrote exactly what I was thinking and why I'm on the fence about it.
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As I said , one does not simply throw all new tricks to trashcan immediately when they get found. These tricks are allowed on new categories for sure. While old tases should go with definition "no XXX glitch , no XXXX glitch."
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When the wind of change blows, some build walls, others build windmills. It is already decided by those that plan and develope the future TASes that the new discoveries will be included without exceptions, if TASVideos will accept them or not. We established our own much more general Super Metroid TAS collection page anyways as a home for TASes independently of TASVideo´s opinion on whether they make sense or not: http://deanyd.net/sm/index.php?title=Tool_Assisted_Speedruns
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
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Sniq wrote:
As I said , one does not simply throw all new tricks to trashcan immediately when they get found.
That is not the case. See how the spike glitch and the stand up glitch can be useful for a no major glitches run and the slope glitch as well considering you'll probably need it to get a flash suit for the new stand up on MB. Also the method to get a flash suit out of a Cristal Flash on elevators.
Sniq wrote:
These tricks are allowed on new categories for sure. While old tases should go with definition "no XXX glitch , no XXXX glitch."
What is allowed and what is not is defined by the judges on the site, not me or forensics. We do not express the site's opinion, only our own.
Aran Jaeger wrote:
It is already decided by those that plan and develope the future TASes that the new discoveries will be included without exceptions, if TASVideos will accept them or not. We established our own much more general Super Metroid TAS collection page anyways as a home for TASes independently of TASVideo´s opinion on whether they make sense or not:
Nobody here is stopping anyone from doing whatever they want to do, and nobody said the site will not accept a run that includes whatever trick/glitch the TASer wants to use.
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Reeve wrote:
as well considering you'll probably need it to get a flash suit for the new stand up on MB
http://puu.sh/nuuAW/53479406ea.mp4
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Well the good thing Reeve is ED and sniq told me Taco will not be using it in his run. Nice job sniq, I was thinking it would be done there just didn't know the set up required.
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Although that is a cool trick, it will probably be slower than using a slope spark on waver room, for example, as Samus is already in full speed. It is a shame, though, that you can't charge a shinespark in MB's room because of just a few pixels. It is possible to charge a spark running against MB's head, like in Cpadolf's 100% run, then use the metallic support MB's head is on to perform the spark glitch without wasting time, but the only benefit would probably be skipping a pause screen for 100% runs, as running against MB's head wastes a shitload of health and you don't have that much health in any% runs.
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Interesting glitch! Makes me wonder what made the SM devs use the same memory location for two different variables, and what they named said variable in their source code.. from what I understand, SM doesn't come close to using all the SNES's memory, so why would they bother saving mere 2 bytes by reusing variables? From a technical point of view, what happens here is a lot less glitchy than, say, firing any spazer/plasma-combination, but the effects on the run are obviously more extensive than a laggy MB fight. Then again, the effects on the route and gameplay are less extensive than, say, mockball. One more (unsolicited) thought. When going for a category with a special goal (like low% or 100%), how strict should one be about reaching that goal? If one uses a glitch to manipulate the item counter to say "100%" without picking up every single item, has the 100% goal been achieved? Similarly, if one uses a glitch to effectively acquire missile expansions beyond those that were picked up and counted, is the resulting run 14% or 26224%? Categories aside, it certainly was an interesting run. Thanks to sniq and everyone else involved!
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I'm dumb. Just realized that going through the zebetite while you setup the spark glitch is the only way to keep an extra spark for MB, as you can't jump while crouched without releasing the shinespark and you need a crouch jump for the zebetite skip if you do not intend to shinespark there.
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Overfiendvip wrote:
You might find this amusing.
It was definitely amusing, that's for sure!!!
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Since this hasn´t been mentioned in here yet, the consequences of the recent Draygon Crystal Flash ammunition underflow include the existence of 4 more 13% branches (for NTSC and PAL). Explicitly, those are: 13%PB-PB (This uses either an elevator CF or the Varia FlashSuit method in order to break the speed blocks in pre-Botwoon room, after arriving at the Everest room (not necessarily via Forgotten Highway) and using a suitless, FlashSuit producing SlopeSpark assisted by a Reserve Tank to chain knockback frames; followed by a Charge-less Botwoon fight with the kept ammunition compared to using a ceiling CF for pre-Botwoon room which would drain required ammunition. Then Botwoon´s E-Tank would be collected and the underflow would be executed at Draygon via powerbomb drop manipulation, which also provides a FlashSuit to escape pre-Draygon room and then all of Maridia. Afterwards, one would have the ammunition to finish off Ridley and Tourian.) 13%PB-Speed (This would use 13%Speed-Charge strategies from the previous pages in the thread up to Draygon, and then underflow ammunition for Ridley and Tourian.) 13%PB-Ice (In here, Ice suffices to get to Draygon, where FlashSuit to escape Maridia and an underflown ammunition count is obtained for Ridley and Tourian, again.) 13%PB-X-Ray (In here, one could get knockback from a crab at the top of Mainstreet room while breaking out of a well-positioned spinjump into the transition to the Everest room in such a way that X-Mode can be started using the closing blue door-shell to land early enough when the knockback frames end, for the so-called JesusWalk past the Everest that Sniq found. For pre-Botwoon room, an R-Mode force-stand would be used to clip through the crumble block ceiling, and then one could skip Botwoon´s E-Tank using God-Mode to let the sand and speed blocks behave like air, or one could simply collect that E-Tank. And finally, one would underflow ammunition at Draygon for Ridley and Tourian.) As core items, all those branches would have (Ball, Bombs, Varia, 3 Tanks, 2*M, 2*SM, 1*PB) to which the branch-defining (major) items are added, and it is to note that only in the 13%PB-X-Ray case, at least 1 R-Tank would be required. As a sidenote, 13%PB-Gravity and 13%PB-Grapple do not work (even though both, Gravity and Grapple, can carry Samus past the Everest), because both options would need a ceiling CF for pre-Botwoon room which leaves Samus with insufficient ammunition for Botwoon, and even with a worm lured to the transition to Botwoon´s room in Gravity´s case, knockback is not good enough to get deep enough into the quickly spawning, grey shell to trigger the transition back to pre-Botwoon room using a walljump-check (if needed, multiple times) to farm. The only 13% branch that exists without the underflow is the previous 13%Speed-Charge option (which is so far restricted to NTSC, since the Colosseum SpikeSpark is not confirmed for PAL). Personally, I´d say TASes for all those branches should be made (and thus, the corresponding routing/strategizing and so on would need to be done), but considering the currently existing 2 14% branches published at TASVideos, it might be the best option to concentrate on TASes for 13%Speed-Charge (as it is the only branch that doesn´t use the underflow) aswell as the fastest branch among those that use the underflow, which (edit:) is probably the 13%PB-X-Ray branch. So one could split low% (without OoB) into 2 branches, one with and the other without ammunition underflow being allowed. Edit: Hereby, I invite everyone to Nymx´s 100% Map Completion TAS Release stream (for his reworked TAS) on twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/nymx_). Time: Immediately following the Ocean Fly Marathon (Roughly 2PM to 2:30PM Eastern on May 1st). And when I am already at it, here is the schedule for the Oceanfly Marathon: http://oceanflymarathon.com/ I hope a lot of people will come together. ^_^ b
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
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Sniq broke the game more!!! http://puu.sh/oNjr7/8613433853.mp4
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Aran Jaeger wrote:
So one could split low% (without OoB) into 2 branches
No. Work on and submit the fastest low% run, let it obsolete the currently published runs, and that's it. It's absurd that we have two low% runs published already, there's literally no good reason to keep upholding this "tradition".
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Samsara wrote:
Aran Jaeger wrote:
So one could split low% (without OoB) into 2 branches
No. Work on and submit the fastest low% run, let it obsolete the currently published runs, and that's it. It's absurd that we have two low% runs published already, there's literally no good reason to keep upholding this "tradition".
I'm not sure if they should go with the fastest per say. This ammunition underflow seems like abusing the percentage counter. IDK if that'd be the faster of the two proposed branches but it sounds a little lame in a low% setting.
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Okay, yeah, that's alright too. As long as there's only one category.
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TheMG2 wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Aran Jaeger wrote:
So one could split low% (without OoB) into 2 branches
No. Work on and submit the fastest low% run, let it obsolete the currently published runs, and that's it. It's absurd that we have two low% runs published already, there's literally no good reason to keep upholding this "tradition".
I'm not sure if they should go with the fastest per say. This ammunition underflow seems like abusing the percentage counter. IDK if that'd be the faster of the two proposed branches but it sounds a little lame in a low% setting.
To me it looks like it doesn't abuse the percentage counter. It has nothing to do with item collection or the way items are being collected (which is the real relevant part for most low% or 100% runs). It just underflows the number of missiles/super missiles Samus can fire, not the (intended) maximum capacity or how many super/missile packs have been collected.
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Samsara wrote:
Okay, yeah, that's alright too. As long as there's only one category.
You cannot really put a category that does underflow glitch (completely eliminates requirement of ammo management) 13% into same category as no-underflow legit 13%. As a finder of both categories I'd say have 2 categories. The fastest underflow itemset 13% as one category , and the legit no-underflow 13% as other category. So just what aran jaeger said should be the best choice. And no, doing underflow glitch does nothing to your collected items %. It just underflows "current ammo" , not the "maximum ammo". At the moment I think we should find out which of the 13% underflow categories is the fastest (13% pb-xray / pb-pb / pb-ice / pb-speed).
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I don't know that I agree with Samsara on only having one low% run, but I definitely think it should be the no-underflow if that's the direction the site goes in. The underflow route removes all ammo management after the underflow (and with it a huge chunk of luck manipulation) and I would think that it boils bosses down to "spam Super Missiles," both of which make it less entertaining (for me, anyway.)
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Aran Jaeger wrote:
As core items, all those branches would have (Ball, Bombs, Varia, 3 Tanks, 2*M, 2*SM, 1*PB) to which the branch-defining (major) items are added, and it is to note that only in the 13%PB-X-Ray case, at least 1 R-Tank would be required.
That means that the real question becomes, "Can the ammunition overflow glitch be triggered with less than 2*M, 2*SM, 1*PB?" If it can, then whatever combination of items that requires is the true low% (ignoring ACE). As for separate 13% branches, I have to agree with Samsara that the fastest 13% should be the 13% branch, regardless of the items collected. The entire concept of pathing and item collection is what makes TASing competitive; by choosing to take an item that results in a slower run, you have not created a new branch, you have made a sub-optimal choice for the existing branch. [On a terminology note, you're talking about overflow and not underflow when you go from 0 to 255 or 0 to 32767. (Or 32767 to 0 or 255 to 0.) Underflow, Overflow]
I am still the wizard that did it. "On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer." -- Satoru Iwata <scrimpy> at least I now know where every map, energy and save room in this game is Samsara last edited by Invariel on 2015-07-26 02:08:14