Tompa
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Skilled player (1953)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
NES TAS of 2018SNES TASer of 2017SNES TAS of 2017NES TAS of 2014GBA TASer of 2011GBA TAS of 2011SNES TASer of 2010
Ok, I suck hard at making TAS's, but I would really like to do one. So I'll start with something simple and go upwards. And I couldn't thnk of any easier game than this. Here's a WIP of the first 10 levels, if someone cares. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3496/Kwirk%20WIP.vbm Would anyone see the rest? This is not really entertaining so...
SXL
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 2/7/2005
Posts: 571
it lacks speed but many other puzzle games also do. the upcoming levels are way harder, it should add the missing wtf factor. I suggest you do the next 10 levels to let people see more interesting levels. the first 10 are not representative. on a side note, this wip and this game sure bring some nostalgia, I played it a lot.
I never sleep, 'cause sleep is the cousin of death - NAS
Active player, Experienced Forum User (264)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
Floor 6 can be improved by 54 frames. Simply move the first character into the alcove instead of the second character, and also press select on an earlier frame. In floor 7, you don't need to go around the middle right rotator at the end of the puzzle. You can push it instead. This should save about 12 frames. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3506/Floors%206-7.vbm
Tompa
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Skilled player (1953)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
NES TAS of 2018SNES TASer of 2017SNES TAS of 2017NES TAS of 2014GBA TASer of 2011GBA TAS of 2011SNES TASer of 2010
Ok, thanks =P. I haven't started to do it with perfection, just play through the game and here what people says. As I doubt this will be published as it lacks of entertaining. EDIT: And so far, I'm not checking frame by frame. So I guess some frames could be saved by pressing Start earlier at some places. But I don't mind yet.
Tompa
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Skilled player (1953)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
NES TAS of 2018SNES TASer of 2017SNES TAS of 2017NES TAS of 2014GBA TASer of 2011GBA TAS of 2011SNES TASer of 2010
Here's up to 2-6 http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3512/Kwirk%20WIP.vbm I know I'm slowing down in 2-2, just ignore it as this isn't going to be the final version anyway. I presume I can do 2-1 - 2-3 a little faster. Feel free to comment anything=P.
Active player, Experienced Forum User (264)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
2-1 looks optimal. 2-2 looks like it can be improved, but I haven't looked at the level closely. 2-3 can be improved to 17 seconds (104 steps) with a different strategy, or 20 seconds (118 steps) with the same strategy you used. 2-4 has some minor movement errors. 2-5 looks like it could be optimal, but there are other possible strategies which are worth testing in the final version. In general, the fact that you need to push a block doesn't always mean that you should push it as soon as possible. The best time to push a block is when it requires the smallest amount of steps out of your way. This is how you can save 6 steps in 2-3 without changing your strategy. 2-7 can be done in 39 seconds (239 steps) when you get there.
Tompa
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Skilled player (1953)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
NES TAS of 2018SNES TASer of 2017SNES TAS of 2017NES TAS of 2014GBA TASer of 2011GBA TAS of 2011SNES TASer of 2010
I even suck at TASing this game, oh well. I'm going to fix up the errors in there later, so I'll just continue on at the moment. I presume you could do this a lot more faster than me anyway, oh well.
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 7/28/2006
Posts: 61
I've never played this game before but I find the movie entertaining for some reason :)
Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
I absolutely love this game. Make a flawless video and perhaps do something a bit shocking and you have my vote.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/17/2006
Posts: 243
Location: Back to good old Germany
I played this game a lot when I was younger. I really enjoy watching your movies. Nitrodon seems to have a lot of knowledge about this game. Maybe you could team up?
Active player, Experienced Forum User (264)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
After talking to Tompa in IRC, I made this WIP yesterday. It finishes the first 20 floors. http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3549/Kwirk%20%28UA%29%20%5B%21%5D.vbm
Tompa
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Skilled player (1953)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
NES TAS of 2018SNES TASer of 2017SNES TAS of 2017NES TAS of 2014GBA TASer of 2011GBA TAS of 2011SNES TASer of 2010
Looks much better than if I had done it, well done.
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 7/28/2006
Posts: 61
So Nitrodon is taking over?
Tompa
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Skilled player (1953)
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1899
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
NES TAS of 2018SNES TASer of 2017SNES TAS of 2017NES TAS of 2014GBA TASer of 2011GBA TAS of 2011SNES TASer of 2010
Yes he is, and he's soon done with it as well.
Active player, Experienced Forum User (264)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3566/Kwirk%20%28UA%29%20%5B%21%5D.vbm I'm aware that 3-8 can be done in fewer steps, but as in 1-10, pressing select fewer times probably makes my solution faster. Are there any possible improvements, no matter how small?
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 448
Location: Calgary, Alberta
You could do a 2 button sequence before the input is allowed and do it immediatly after first input.
Renting this space for rent. Trying to fix image on this site. Please cut slack. As of April 6th, 2012: After a long absence, here we go again?
Active player, Experienced Forum User (264)
Joined: 3/4/2006
Posts: 341
Rridgway wrote:
You could do a 2 button sequence before the input is allowed and do it immediatly after first input.
Without any context, I have no idea what you mean by this. When is your statement applicable?
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 2/13/2007
Posts: 448
Location: Calgary, Alberta
In my wario land 3 run (in progress), I press 2 buttons 2 frames before the input is accepted, so i do the action immeadiatly. It does not apply anywhere, its just in general.
Renting this space for rent. Trying to fix image on this site. Please cut slack. As of April 6th, 2012: After a long absence, here we go again?
Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Expert player (2825)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2474
Location: US
NES TASer of 2015
I was testing out GBHawk with this game and I noticed that there is an oversight in Level 2-2 in the published run. The published run takes the blue route, but it's faster to take the red route. Curiously, the 100% run on speedrun.com also makes this mistake. I'll probably look over some of the other levels as well, but puzzle games generally aren't my thing, so if anyone else wants to jump in and look for other improvements feel free.
Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Expert player (2825)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2474
Location: US
NES TASer of 2015
Here is a movie file that syncs in GBHawk in the current Dev Build. I included the above time save, and also found a 3 step faster route in 2-7. I might spend a little more time looking at the other levels, but so far nothing else has stuck out at me as being obviously improveable. Also Kwirk does some stuff with audio mixing (cutting off the wave channel mid sample) that results in some obvious popping. I'm guessing there is some kind of filtering I should be doing to mitigate this, but I haven't looked into it yet.
Emulator Coder, Experienced Forum User
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Alyosha wrote:
The published run takes the blue route, but it's faster to take the red route. Curiously, the 100% run on speedrun.com also makes this mistake.
On first glance, the blue route actually looks more direct and shorter. I think that's why both make that mistake. The faux 3D aspect distorts the length vs. width difference.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Experienced Forum User
Joined: 12/10/2006
Posts: 118
CyberShadow had a bot search for better solutions and mentioned it in this thread. See my old post for a 2-2 tip. It might be exactly that position the screenshot is showing. Then going for the left 3x1 block will be even faster.
Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Expert player (2825)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2474
Location: US
NES TASer of 2015
thommy3 wrote:
CyberShadow had a bot search for better solutions and mentioned it in this thread. See my old post for a 2-2 tip. It might be exactly that position the screenshot is showing. Then going for the left 3x1 block will be even faster.
Ha, nice catch, I didn’t even see that! So someone already coded a solver for this ... 9 years ago 0_0. Man, there is so much lost or abandoned work out there, it’s kind of sad. EDIT: I managed to figure out the improvement in 2-3 to get 98 steps. I implemented the 205 step route in 2-2. I also implemented the 2 step improvement in 2-6 from thommy3. I haven't looked at the 3-2 yet which cybershadow listed as 180 steps (5 step improvement.) Nitrodon also mentions an improvement of 3-10 to 426 steps that I haven't looked at. CyberShadow originally mentioned 5 improved levels I don't know if the 2-6 and 2-7 improvements are part of those, so at best 1 more improvement is out there and at worst 3. EDIT2: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/46783748064223941 It took some effort, but I found 180 moves in 3-2. Only one more (stated) improvement to find.
Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Expert player (2825)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2474
Location: US
NES TASer of 2015
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/46805336826281923 I found improvements in 2-1 and 2-4. I'm thinking the improvements cybershadow found were these plus 2-6, so that list of 5 levels would be: 2-1, 2-3, 2-4, 2-6, 3-2 There is also the improvement I found in 2-7, and the knwon improvement in 2-2. So that's 7 levels improved so far. I looked over most of the other low move count levels but didn't see any obvious improvements. So the only other known improvement is in 3-10 which I haven't looked at yet. I'll probably look over the other levels up to that point first.
Alyosha
He/Him
Editor, Experienced Forum User, Expert player (2825)
Joined: 11/30/2014
Posts: 2474
Location: US
NES TASer of 2015
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/46919445429283957 1 move saved in 3-9. (I also improved the intro menuing.) I looked over the other levels but couldn't find anything, so it's on to 3-10. If anyone else decides to try to run a solver, I would be quite interested in the results for some of the higher move count levels, although some of them do seem to have only one 'fast' solution path.