Post subject: Re: smw 96-exit
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My thoughts, based on what I think would make the best run. My biggest feeling is that 96 exit, at its heart, is a chance to show the entirety of the game that is missed in the any%. With that said: Chuck-Eat Glitch: I'm in favor of using it to spawn a key for underwater swimming levels, but not so much for spawning goal spheres. I suppose ISM's run has been doing the Yoshi Wing trick in a few levels, so maybe another 15 levels would be fine, I guess. Chuck-eat Secondary: anything that could be used to trigger the credits anyways is poo poo. I'm more in favor of using it only to change the current powerup or change what powerup is in reserve. Changing the overworld map, eh... Stun Sprite: useful in 5 levels, so that's fine I suppose Don't go for 99 exits, go for the normal 96. Makes it easier to keep the 96 exit category, and no sense in glitching just make the movie longer.
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Post subject: Re: smw 96-exit
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bahamete wrote:
What constitutes all-exits? Using goal sphere in Bowser's Castle, Back Door and Funky, we can in fact get 99 exits. So should we? This is a tough one to answer, I guess :p
Even if we get 99 exits, the title screen still shows the starred 96 graphic. But in the (J) rom, there's no such limit, and the title screen can actually show 99. One more question related to this is what should be called "96-exit". Just beating 96 arbitrary exits (which makes sense now), or beating the 96 original exits. Please keep this in mind as well. I have no idea as to which is faster, though.
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I'd like to write my full thoughts right now but I'm really busy until 8pm(it's 2:25pm here). The only thing I'd not like to see in this video would be you guys glitching the exit counter like in the any% run, this is fine there but here is another case. I'll edit this as soon as I can.
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Wow, these are tough questions. The possibility of most of these glitches takes this run to more like the SMB3 "no warp whistles, but still lots of shortcuts" realm (though not exactly). I think it forces the route-planner to answer some very interesting questions - things like "Where does this goal sphere save more time?". So here is my gut feeling. Chuck-Eat glitch - I don't have any problems using a goal sphere, but the secondary results seem dubious. However, what's the difference, really? Just writing different values to different memory locations. Sure, you'll get all the pedantics in a silly discussion, trying to figure out exactly how to define a zip. I think many will say no based on that discussion, and their points are valid with the need for having very discrete "branches" defined for future integrity of run obsoletion and all that. However I will say yes, include all of this. Times are a-changing and TASes of these more complex games are getting more and more glitched as time goes on. Stun sprite - Yeah, if using the chuck-eat glitch, where you can goal sphere, key spawn, and possibly move around the overworld map, this wouldn't be any more/less crazy in terms of how much you're causing the game to go "out of bounds". All-exits - I think this means at least entering and "finishing" (via gate, goal sphere, key, boss death, yoshi wings) each of the traditional 96 exits, then triggering the "full ending" starting with princess falling out of the clown car. My gut is that a good majority of the levels will still be quite "normal", and probably many of the "skipped" levels will be repeats of levels with a key exit (since none of the techniques above will trigger a secret exit, except possibly breaking the tape, like Donut Ghost House b?). I wonder if some of these tricks open up new areas for the small-only run? (Or maybe they all require powerup incrementing.)
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None of the glitches use powerup-incrementing; we will not be using null-spit on a platform due to it being used in the glitched run. I was warned of this by adelikat (or DarkKobold?) However, they all require Yoshi, so no additional techniques for the small-only I'm afraid. Thanks for everyone's input so far ^^
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bahamete wrote:
So as you may or may not (probably not) know, we have decided to attempt the 96-exit run due to news of ISM 'giving up', for lack of a better term or knowledge. I guess he grew weary of new discoveries. Current team is that of any%: Kaizoman666, Mister, PangaeaPanga and me. So we're interested in some points the community may want to offer out an opinion for because we're struggling to see a logical swing one way or the other. Do we use Chuck-Eat glitch? This was discussed somewhat previously but we really need a solid answer as we'll be started soon. We'd love a judges opinion but anyone can throw their opinion out. This would mean maybe 15 or more exits will be beaten using a goal sphere, and water levels (we're currently thinking Soda Lake) will be skipped by holding a key. Things like this. I personally believe that using the bug will make the run look boring to some, but fresh and original to others. It's a grey area. Do we use secondary results of Chuck-Eat glitch? According to antaasas and others, we can write to any address possible by eating a chuck with OAM in a correct order. I'm not too knowledgable but from preliminary thoughts, we could manipulate which overworld Mario is on, the powerup we currently have, which item is in reserve, etc. It gets a little hazy when you realise that using this method, we can trigger the credits, or even write 96 to the exit counter and consider that a "finished" run. We don't want to do this; so which is acceptable? Do we use "stun any sprite" bug? Recently, we've found a way to stun any sprite. To people who aren't obsessed with SMW this basically means we can put sprites into a position where they will spawn something, similar to how an overturned Koopa shell spawns a koopa. Think in the glitched run, where fishes are spawned. This bug has been known for a while but now any sprite is possible. Thanks to ISM and antaasas, so far we can spawn Koopa Kids (more or less instant level enders) and goal tapes. I'll detail this bug later, though. I will mention this bug will only be useful in a maximum of maybe 5 levels. What constitutes all-exits? Using goal sphere in Bowser's Castle, Back Door and Funky, we can in fact get 99 exits. So should we? This is a tough one to answer, I guess :p So what do you think? It's hard to judge which should be used as it could ruin the run, potentially. Include all possible bugs? Exclude all of the above? Some but not others?
Hoping more people would become interested in this discussion, here is a quick translation into Japanese. / より多くの方に興味を持ってもらいたいので、日本語でも説明しておきます。 全クリTASを一から作り直すにあたって、いくつか問題点が浮上しているので、意見を募りたいと思います。 ブル食べバグを使うかどうか これについては何度か議論されていますが、より正確な線引きのためにももう一度ここで確認を取りたいと思っています。 ゴール玉と鍵のストックが可能ですが、ゴール玉が使用されるであろう箇所はおよそ15ほどになると想定しています。それに対して、鍵の使用は恐らく水中面での加速に使われる(ソーダの湖?)のみで、鍵本来としての使い道はなさそうです。 ゴール玉を使うと、一部とてつもなく退屈になってしまう可能性がありますが、逆に新鮮味が増す部分もあり、判断の難しいところです。グレーゾーンといったところでしょうか。 ブル食べバグの副作用を使うかどうか antaasasさんらが指摘しているように、特定の状況でブルを食べると、任意コードを実行できる可能性があるらしいです。専門的なことは分からないのですが、マリオのパワーアップ状態やストックを変化させたり、マリオの居るマップを調整できるのかもしれません。エンディングを呼び出したり、ゴール数を操作できたりする可能性もないとは言えないので、やはりこの副作用を使うのは我々としても避けたいところです。 スタンバグを使うかどうか まだ定まった用語が決まっていないので、分かりづらいと思いますが、「Pスイッチからプクプクが出る」とか「ひっくり返った甲羅からハダカガメが出る」とかと似たような現象を、ほとんど全てのスプライトで実行することが可能になったということです。何が生成されるかはスプライトによって違いますが、たとえばコクッパやゴールテープを出現させることもできます(antaasas、ISM両氏の調査による)。このバグが使われるのは恐らく5箇所程度になるでしょう。 全クリとは? ゴール玉をクッパ城入り口、裏口、スペシャルコース8で使うと、新規ゴールとしてカウントされます。つまりゲーム内部的には99ゴールまで計算されるということです。では99ゴールをもって全クリとするべきなのでしょうか、それとも今までどおり96ゴールのほうがよいのでしょうか。また、ゴール数が96以上のとき、米国版ロムのタイトル画面では星付きの96しか表示されません。日本語ロムには星付き表示が用意されていないので、97以上でも普通に表示されます。 もし96ゴールをもってして全クリと称するのであれば、その96ゴールはどうやって選ばれるべきでしょう。本来の96ゴールのみに限定するか、あるいはどこでもいいから96ゴールすればいいとするか。 それぞれのバグの全容が見えていないだけに、何が動画の質を損ねるかを判断して、納得のいく線引きを設けるのは非情に難しいと思います。全てを含めるべきなのか、あるいは全て排除するべきなのか。はたまた特定のものだけ使うことにするのか。何か思うところがありましたらご意見をどうぞ。日本語でもかまいません。(私自身あまり英語が得意でないので、私のキャパシティを超えた曖昧な表現があった場合いくぶんストレートに言い換えられる可能性があります。)
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Post subject: Re: smw 96-exit
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bahamete wrote:
Do we use Chuck-Eat glitch? This was discussed somewhat previously but we really need a solid answer as we'll be started soon. We'd love a judges opinion but anyone can throw their opinion out. This would mean maybe 15 or more exits will be beaten using a goal sphere, and water levels (we're currently thinking Soda Lake) will be skipped by holding a key. Things like this. I personally believe that using the bug will make the run look boring to some, but fresh and original to others. It's a grey area.
I think you should use this glitch. It is not so glitchy that it enters "glitched" territory, and it would add some nice variation to a long run. I do not think skipping a few stages this way is any worse entertainment-wise than flying over stages with the cape is.
bahamete wrote:
Do we use secondary results of Chuck-Eat glitch? According to antaasas and others, we can write to any address possible by eating a chuck with OAM in a correct order. I'm not too knowledgable but from preliminary thoughts, we could manipulate which overworld Mario is on, the powerup we currently have, which item is in reserve, etc. It gets a little hazy when you realise that using this method, we can trigger the credits, or even write 96 to the exit counter and consider that a "finished" run. We don't want to do this; so which is acceptable?
This one is difficult. The optimal solution would be to do both, of course, as separate categories, but a 100% run is such a heavy undertaking that I won't demand that you do it twice in a row. Manipulation of which overworld you are on sounds like it would open up many fun new routes. But one needs a strict definition of the category to avoid jumping directly to the end, as you say. What exactly is the mechanism for the chuck glitch? (preferably with lots of assembly in the answer :)).
bahamete wrote:
Do we use "stun any sprite" bug? Recently, we've found a way to stun any sprite. To people who aren't obsessed with SMW this basically means we can put sprites into a position where they will spawn something, similar to how an overturned Koopa shell spawns a koopa. Think in the glitched run, where fishes are spawned. This bug has been known for a while but now any sprite is possible. Thanks to ISM and antaasas, so far we can spawn Koopa Kids (more or less instant level enders) and goal tapes. I'll detail this bug later, though. I will mention this bug will only be useful in a maximum of maybe 5 levels.
Definitely use this one. Sounds really fun!
bahamete wrote:
What constitutes all-exits? Using goal sphere in Bowser's Castle, Back Door and Funky, we can in fact get 99 exits. So should we? This is a tough one to answer, I guess :p
This sounds like it will involve some backtracking (to get goal spheres) for not much gain, so I'd say no.
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In terms of glitching, use them all. It would be interesting to see 96 exits found on the save file using Chuck-Eat glitch. That's not something that non-TAS players could ever do (probably). Though, I would like to see a "proper" run that does not do the above suggestion. What do you mean by "manipulate which overworld Mario is on"? You mean changing it from "normal" to the modified version that you get after beating the Secret area?
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hegyak wrote:
It would be interesting to see 96 exits found on the save file using Chuck-Eat glitch. That's not something that non-TAS players could ever do (probably).
Consistent methods have been found for the goal orb on YI1 and CI5. But we're going through the same dilemma with RTA trying to determine what constitutes 96 Exits O_O
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Also note that the points bahamete mentions above can apply to my Super Demo World 120-Exit run as well.
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If you have to backtrack all the way to YI1 every tiume you need a goal sphere, what exits will actually be faster with one? Also, if that and CI5 (Chocolate Island 5?) are the only places you can get them, then doing those over and over will (for me) get boring in a BIG hurry. (How quickly can you reach CI5 in a 96-exit, anyway?) I would personally suggest that, if there are any other levels you could possibly get goal spheres from, you do it exactly once from each of them.
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Chuck-Eat glitch (primary) - Yes. Unrestricted I'm thinking of some glitched run where, though everything is crazy glitchy, still gets pretty repetitive after a while. Regardless, you will have at least two different levels you can base this off. It will get repetitive around the third start select revisit, though... But I do want to see all glitch-exits traversed... An alternative is to restrict the glitch by restricting ourselves from revisiting a level we already left by start select. Chuck-Eat glitch (secondary) - Yes. With restrictions. Obviously, credits trigger and exit counter overwrite is undesired. Technical restriction, really: No overwriting special memory addresses. But outside of that, go nuts. I certainly won't mind seeing a "warp" take place. "stun any sprite" bug - Yes. Unrestricted. Can Mario be "stunned"? What about Yoshi? Message boxes? Moving platforms? Hey, you said any sprite. But besides that, anything that ends the level instantly through highly unanticipated means would be plenty good to see, by my initial thoughts. All-exits - All 99. When I think all exits, I mean all of them. Originally, I believed it to be 96, but now I am aware otherwise. By this alone, a longer run that completes a new-found exit while still keeping a similar level of optimization on other levels should obsolete the older runs. This has the side-effect of transmitting to everyone that, no, getting the goal sphere in Bowser's Castle through either route will not trigger the credits. Now go away. Those are my thoughts.
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FatRatKnight wrote:
Can Mario be "stunned"? What about Yoshi? Message boxes? Moving platforms? Hey, you said any sprite.
Just to clarify: Yes, any sprite that appears on the sprite tables, whereby Yoshi can be in the same place as them. Messages boxes, yes, Moving platforms, yes, and nathanisbored has indeed managed to stun a Yoshi. Though the latter is not too easy to setup as you can imagine :p Anyway, the only useful sprites to stun are Pokey and sliding Blue Koopa, which spawn a goal tape and a Koopa Kid respectively. But we have to take into account that other sprites, when stunned, will spawn a sliding Blue Koopa - such as super koopa (yellow cape) and Diggin' Chuck's rock. So we end up with a chain of stunning sprites :p
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Question that may be obvious: could you stun a sprite to spawn a chuck and then eat him? Regarding the rules, I'd really like to see the run with as many non-game-ending glitches as possible, unless it involves completing some levels more than 2 or 3 times. It would be neat to see the fastest route possible for 96 exits. If it essentially removes the gameplay from a significant number of levels, perhaps there could be two categories, one with no or limited Yoshi glitches.
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snorlax wrote:
could you stun a sprite to spawn a chuck and then eat him?
[URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrj_dqI67C0]Yes.[/URL]
Warning: Might glitch to credits I will finish this ACE soon as possible (or will I?)
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I've just watched this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0XW2N3cKCI, and I now think you should do 99 exits. The comments there raise a question for me too: if you got a secret exit in, for example, Yoshi's Island 4, would that mark Iggy's Castle as complete?
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Demos for the stun glitch: Link to video http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1560447304/YI4_test.smv http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/848313215/SP5test.smv http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1264938321/CMtest.smv The first is anta's, and the others ISM's. Link to video http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1192407884/VoB4atest.smv Another demo of ISM's. Link to video http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1576774812/VOB4%20goal.smv Masterjun's demo as he posted above.
snorlax wrote:
I've just watched this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0XW2N3cKCI, and I now think you should do 99 exits. The comments there raise a question for me too: if you got a secret exit in, for example, Yoshi's Island 4, would that mark Iggy's Castle as complete?
We however have no means of making sure if we actually get 99 exits, other than watching memory. The secret exit in yi4 does trigger Iggy's castle normal exit and make a path from there, but we won't be able to walk that path any longer.
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After watching Mister's video, I say definitely exclude this stun glitch. Takes the entertainment and whatnot away from the run.
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AngerFist wrote:
After watching Mister's video, I say definitely exclude this stun glitch. Takes the entertainment and whatnot away from the run.
The stun glitch is only usable in a limited few levels, since there's only a few sprites you can string together to stun either a Pokey or Blue Koopa (for normal exits) or Dino Rhino (for secret exits). Although you can string together multiple stuns, there's a limit due to the fact that the first sprite Yoshi eats when doing the glitch becomes permanent.
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Mister wrote:
The secret exit in yi4 does trigger Iggy's castle normal exit and make a path from there, but we won't be able to walk that path any longer.
What do you mean? If we beat YI4 regularly and with the secret exit, we can't walk straight to DP1? Is there a video showing what happens? The only videos I can find with this glitch have all the levels already beaten. Thanks for the great videos guys and the prompt reply. Valley of Bowser 4 might be my favorite level now.
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snorlax wrote:
Mister wrote:
The secret exit in yi4 does trigger Iggy's castle normal exit and make a path from there, but we won't be able to walk that path any longer.
What do you mean? If we beat YI4 regularly and with the secret exit, we can't walk straight to DP1? Is there a video showing what happens? The only videos I can find with this glitch have all the levels already beaten. Thanks for the great videos guys and the prompt reply. Valley of Bowser 4 might be my favorite level now.
There's no video as far as I know, but, assuming you have an emulator, you may easily check it by using gocha's lua script, which enables you to get normal exit with start select, and secret exit with start A+select.
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Great videos guys, and thanks Mister for postings the .smv files =)
Post subject: smw-96 goals
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Thanks for everyone's input! We didn't assume that everyone would want the same thing so we used our best judgement on the goals. Here's what we're currently talking about but we need to speak to Kaizoman first, anyway: Avoid Start + Select and don't abuse death. We're most concerned about this goal as we don't all agree on it, but I'll write it down anyway. The only reason we'd use either of these is returning to levels to get a goal-sphere in reserve. We wanted to exclude many map transitions and thus these two goals remove the possibility, but allow for chuck-eat maybe 5 or 6 times in the run. As for the secondary effects, we're unsure right now. Use stun bug. We're including this bug because the general view seems to view it as entertaining, and it saves time. Besides, it will only be used up to 5 times maximum. Get 96 original exits. Exclude fake exits, such as using goal sphere to get exits not originally programmed. We hope these goals are at least somewhat clear. We want to avoid being arbitrary but maximise entertainment.
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Those stun bug videos are amazing. I agree with only counting "original" exits. I'm interested in hearing more about the choice not to abuse death -- death abuse is usually fine, so it seems wrong to me on the surface, but I don't really understand all the intricacies.
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They want the number of times they enter a level to be not greater than the number of exits for that level. This would allow use of goal sphere, but would avoid dozens of extra map moves that the goal sphere otherwise would require for a fastest completion. Personally I think the decision would be made for similar reason why the small mario run avoids switch palaces: maximize variation to hopefully increase entertainment, while also preventing the run from being trivial. I don't claim to speak for them, this just appears to be the reasoning.
Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign aqfaq Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign Deign