(Link to video)
Submission Text Full Submission Page
FractalFusion's NES Wheel of Fortune in 1:55.18 (6922 frames). An improvement over PikachuMan's previous submission by about 26 seconds.
Nicovideo:
Account: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22674087

Goals

  • Starts from savestate+reset.
  • Aims for fastest time from reset to selecting END on the bonus round which results in a bonus round win.
  • 2P input in a 1P game.
  • Manipulates luck.

Why from savestate+reset instead of power-on?

The game uses the RAM range 0x780-0x7FC as a bitfield for the status of its 1000 puzzles. Bit 0 means puzzle is available for selection; bit 1 means puzzle cannot be selected/has already been done. But the game never initializes this range before using it; as a result, the initial RAM power-on state affects this range. The RAM initialization of FCEUX arbitrarily restricts which puzzles are available at first. However, we can use a preparation movie file to manipulate this range, and then start from a reset. This allows much more flexibility.
The preparation movie file, being also a verification movie file, proves that this RAM setup can be reached from FCEUX's power-on state. Nothing special about FCEUX's power-on state; with the right preparation movie file, this setup can be reached from any power-on state whatsoever. This is because, if the entire RAM range 0x780-0x7FC is filled entirely with 1-bits, the game zeroes the entire range next puzzle.
The preparation movie file is in the resource link in the Other information section below.

Verifying the movie

  • Run Wheel of Fortune-verificationfile.fm2 . Pause at the last frame, when frame display says "692332/692332".
  • Stop the movie.
  • Record a new movie starting from savestate (Record from -> Now).
  • Check the header of the new movie. The savestate in Base64 encoding should be the same as for this submitted movie.

Optimizing the TAS

Optimal puzzles

First, I found out where the puzzles were stored in the ROM (ROM file 0x109DE-0x14617, NES address 04:89CE-05:C607). There are 1000 of them. (At first sight, there appears to be 1002 of them, but one of them is a fake, corresponding to the title screen's WHEEL OF FORTUNE, and the other is a lost puzzle that the game's puzzle selection routine will never hit, ever.)
I used a C++ program to calculate a "score" for each puzzle, representing how long the puzzle takes. It is based off both the time taken to enter the puzzle on the solve screen, and the time for Vanna to reveal the puzzle. Each puzzle is calculated as follows:
  • Let val('A')=1, val('B')=2, ... , val('Z')=26. Let k be the number of letters in the puzzle. Let a(0)=val('A')=1 and a(k)=val(kth letter of puzzle). Let b(k)=a(k)-a(k-1).
  • Then the score of the puzzle is: 
score=  42*k
      + sum(1 to k)[min( 1+8*|b(k)| , 117-8*(b(k)-16) , 129-8*(-b(k)-16) )]
      + min( 129-8*(15-a(k)) , 121-8*(a(k)-16) )
Puzzles with best results:
ScorePuzzle #Word
06420818TOOTSIE
06430806BEN HUR
06950340EUCLID
06970199BABE RUTH
07020451MONOCLE
07110442TUXEDO
07130138HONG KONG
07240618HIGH JINKS
07270686SO BE IT
07290010FORT KNOX
07290055BOOT HILL
07380456LULLABY
07450462CHESTNUT
07490922BIRTHDAY
07550803PSYCHO
07610688LOOK IT UP
07630953PAYDAY
07650850THE ILIAD
07660392COCONUT
07820122CAPE COD
07820366HAIRPIN
07820430HAIRPIN
07920969YOM KIPPUR
07930081HONOLULU
07930148ETHIOPIA
07970494SOUR NOTE
07980355GALILEO
(The full list is here. It is sorted by puzzle number though. You can sort by score in another program like Notepad++ . The list was generated using wofscript.cpp . See the resoure link in the Other information section below.)
These scores assume the standard first/second round structure.
Speed-up round is a bit different; you have to choose a letter in the puzzle before you are allowed to solve it. I quickly figured that choosing the U in EUCLID pretty much gives the best result; it saves the four seconds needed to go from E to U to C normally, and no other word comes close. It is also near the left side so Vanna doesn't have to walk far.
In bonus round, you choose five consonants and a vowel and if any of them are in the puzzle, they are turned over before you solve it. It is fastest to choose letters that aren't in the puzzle so Vanna doesn't have to do anything. Note that if the letters you choose uncover the whole puzzle (for example, if the puzzle is PSYCHO and you choose, well, PSYCHO), you still have to select END after the puzzle is uncovered, and no, timing out causes you to lose no matter what, in case you were thinking about abusing that.
The best bonus round puzzle happens to be the one with the best score above; that is, TOOTSIE. ZYXWVU can be selected while on the way to T. (The next couple best are MONOCLE, selecting BDFGHI along the way, and HONG KONG, selecting BCDFJI.)
This conveniently leaves BEN HUR and BABE RUTH for the first and second rounds, respectively. Checking shows that BEN HUR first and BABE RUTH second is a couple frames faster than the other way around.
There is the possibility of having a puzzle show up twice in a single game by zeroing the range 0x780-0x7FC during the game, I checked to see if it was feasible. However, EUCLID and TOOTSIE would be impossible for speed and bonus rounds in this case, and substituting other puzzles in their place would be too costly.
So, in conclusion, the puzzles I use are:
  • First round: BEN HUR (#806)
  • Second round: BABE RUTH (#199)
  • Speed-up round: EUCLID (#340)
  • Bonus round: TOOTSIE (#818)

Spin manipulation

It is possible to manipulate the speed-up round's spin. This is also where 2P input comes in.
I manipulate the spin meter to be as low as possible. It is impossible to manipulate the spin further with 1P input; however, with 2P input, the added delay variance is manipulated to be 0. The speed-up round's puzzle can also be manipulated with 2P input as well.

How to manipulate these puzzles (i.e. 0x780-0x7FC manipulation)

The RNG

The RNG (address 0x0A-0x0C) controls randomness in this game. It is influenced by input most of the time. The address 0x0A merely increments whereas 0x0B and 0x0C are chaotic. Usually, puzzle selection in this game (as well as speed-up round's spin) is determined by the RNG when address 0x0A is 200 (0xC8). At that time, only 38505 out of 65536 values for 0x0B-0x0C are possible.

Puzzle selection rules

As stated earlier, if the entire RAM range 0x780-0x7FC is filled entirely with 1-bits, the game zeroes the entire range next puzzle. (It also zeroes address 0x7FD for whatever reason.)
Now the game selects a puzzle using its puzzle select routine that is intricately connected to the RNG. If the routine gives a puzzle that already has its bit set to 1, it runs the routine again up to 7 more times with slightly different parameters. If that fails, the game stops trying to use its fancy routines. It simply takes a point in the range and finds the first puzzle from there that has bit 0.
Now, there are some limitations for puzzle selection. It is entirely possible that two given puzzles must occur in a particular order and never the other way around. Because of RNG timing, this restriction may be particular to the first/second/bonus rounds (the third speed-up round is less restricted). Puzzles 936-959 and 968-991 are extremely restricted. Fortunately, these limitations do not affect the choice of puzzles that I want.

For the puzzles used in this TAS

  • BEN HUR (#806) can be triggered directly; nothing else needed.
  • BABE RUTH (#199) requires all puzzles 96-198 to be done already (bit 1) as well as a sequence of puzzles for which there exists an RNG value causing the routine to try these puzzles before taking the first available puzzle from 96.
  • EUCLID (#340) requires (for optimal speed-up round spin manipulation) all puzzles 224-339 to be done already (bit 1) as well as a sequence of puzzles for which there exists an RNG value causing the routine to try these puzzles before taking the first available puzzle from 224.
  • TOOTSIE (#818) requires all puzzles 800-817 to be done already (bit 1), including BEN HUR (#806), as well as a sequence of puzzles for which there exists an RNG value causing the routine to try these puzzles before taking the first available puzzle from 800.
Note that the completion of BEN HUR in the first round satisfies the requirements for TOOTSIE in the bonus round.
The following RNG values are used, with the puzzle sequence that the puzzle selection algorithm tries:
  • BEN HUR: C8.C7FA (805 124 800 072 814 038 632 804 800 801 802 ... 806)
  • BABE RUTH: C8.6D39 (123 801 075 815 033 633 807 122 096 097 098 ... 199)
  • EUCLID: 99.2327 (333 918 252 672 998 165 999 251 224 225 226 ... 340)
  • TOOTSIE: C8.C7FA (805 124 800 072 814 038 632 804 800 801 802 ... 818)

Setting up the preparation movie file

The standard method for setting up bits in the 0x780-0x7FC range is to manipulate a particular puzzle for the first round and then immediately reset after the bit is set to 1. However, not all puzzles can be manipulated this way. Some puzzles require a manipulation in the third (speed-up) round. Thus, some puzzles will have to be solved in the first two rounds. As I was trying to optimize the preparation movie file as well, I chose the puzzles with the lowest possible scores.
The preparation movie, made with a lot of input file editing as well as a bunch of C++-generated information files, boils down to this:
(note that this preparation movie uses only one controller instead of two that the TAS uses)
  • Reach the first round and immediately reset after any one bit is set to 1 (no manipulation needed). Repeat this 511 more times. The range 0x780-0x7FC is now filled with 1-bits and will be zeroed out next puzzle.
  • Let the characters below denote the important RNG values to manipulate:
CharacterRNG value at C8.xxxx CharacterRNG value at C8.xxxx
06D39 c440F
1B4C8 d040C
21F30 e440C
3C7FA f040D
44434 gCD7E
58373 h8368
6C31A iC368
7C373 j8369
8C391 kC369
9040E m662A
a040F nD40A
b440E p4615
  • Perform the following manipulations in this order (brackets means solve the first two and manipulate the third for the speed-up round): 
41(012)000000111(012)000011111111(012)00111115678(012)0(002)
000011(012)000111(012)0000000(002)(002)(002)00000001(012)
001111(012)00(002)001(012)0000(002)1(012)0011111111(012)
000(002)011111111(012)1(112)1(112)0000000001111111111(012)
(9a2)0000001bcdef(012)00011(012)00011(012)
00000011gg33333333hijk(m1n)m11(31p)
Memory range 0x780-0x7FC should now look like this. This is starting position for the TAS: 
00000000 42000000 01900000 FFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FE000000 FFFFFFFF
FFFFFFFF FFFFFFFF FFFFF000 00000120
00000004 00000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 00000000 00040000 000000C0
00000000 80000000 00000000 00000000
00000000 FDFFC000 02000000 00000000
00000200 00000000 00000000 03

Other stuff

Can this TAS be played directly from power-on?

Sure. Just modify FCEUX's source code to write the above memory for 0x780-0x7FC at power-on and you're set.
OK, if you mean play directly from power-on on console, then probably not. Well, let's look at it closely. You'll need the following binary values for the following addresses ('.' means any bit value): 
0x784: .1....1.
0x789: 1..1....
0x78C-0x797: 11111111
0x798: 11111110
0x79C-0x7A9: 11111111
0x7AA: 11110...
0x7CF: 11......
0x7D4: 1.......
0x7E4: 11111101
0x7E5: 11111111
0x7E6: 110.....
0x7F2: ......1.
0x7FC: ......11
Count them. That's 250 bits that must be manipulated at power-on. Assuming each bit can be set independently to 0 or 1 with 0.5 probability each, that's a probability of (0.5)^250 to get a RAM state that works. If you set your NES on fire with a laser beam and throw it into a pool of water, then maybe, just maybe it will give you a RAM state that works.
On the other hand, why bother?

How about console verification?

There is a method which may allow it to be verified as starting from reset (not from power-on) even though we have no idea of the NES power-on state. See the resource link in the Other information section below.
The file Wheel of Fortune-clearmem-e34f x 77.fm2 (which we call file A) sets 77 bits in 0x780-0x7FC using RNG value C8.E34F (resetting immediately after activating each puzzle, except the last one). Run this file over and over until, during running the file, the range 0x780-0x7FC is zeroed out after being filled completely with 1-bits.
To tell if this has happened, see the shape of the last puzzle and compare it with the 77 puzzles in wofconsoleverify-puzzleshapes.txt (#0512-0588). If the puzzle is not in there, then the zeroing out did not happen. If the puzzle is there and does not have a star, then the zeroing out happened (except see the last sentence below). If the puzzle is there and has a star, then run Wheel of Fortune-e34f.fm2 (sets only 1 bit in 0x780-0x7FC using RNG value C8.E34F) and check the displayed puzzle (which should be the next one in the puzzle order) to confirm whether or not it is one of these puzzles. Also, if this is the first time running file A and the displayed puzzle is the last one in the puzzle order (#0588), then the zeroing out cannot be confirmed to have happened.
Since there are only 1000 puzzles, file A needs only to be run at most 13 times. On average, it requires 6.5 times.
Once the range has zeroed out, run Wheel of Fortune-verifyfrom0mem.fm2 to set up the necessary RAM for this TAS. Whether or not any additional puzzles of 0512-0588 have been activated by file A after zeroing out the range does not matter; neither Wheel of Fortune-verifyfrom0mem.fm2 nor the actual TAS are affected.
Note that this whole set-up takes a long time (anywhere from 1h40m to 5h20m, though if power-on RAM is truly random, then it takes on average 3h30m).
Once everything has been set up, just run the TAS (should begin with a reset). The TAS itself requires two controllers, even though the setup files only require one.
I don't know if there are any other important details for sync on a real console, but this is how it works, theoretically.

Other information (disassembly, etc.)

Some more information regarding game mechanics and disassembly can be found at the Game Resources page.
Resource link: http://www.mediafire.com/download/1bchszrhy6vpxiz/wofresource.zip .
The resource link contains:
  • The verification movie file Wheel of Fortune-verificationfile.fm2 .
  • The files for possible method of console verification Wheel of Fortune-clearmem-e34f x 77.fm2 , wofconsoleverify-puzzleshapes.txt , Wheel of Fortune-verifyfrom0mem.fm2 as described above.
  • The program to generate the full list of puzzles and calculate a score for each one wofscript.cpp . It requires a ROM for this game, renamed zzz.nes .
  • Files to help with RNG manipulation wofrandomtable1.txt , wofrandomtable2.txt wofrandomtable3.txt , wofrandomtable4.txt , as well as the programs to generate them wof.h , wofrandom1.cpp , wofrandom2.cpp , wofrandom3.cpp , wofrandom4.cpp and an intermediate file woftbl .
    • Given the current value of RNG as BC.xxxx, wofrandomtable1.txt gives the input values required to be pressed on 0x0A=BE, C0, C2 to manipulate the RNG from BC.xxxx to C2.0400.
    • Given the desired value of RNG to be C8.xxxx, wofrandomtable2.txt gives the input values required to be pressed on 0x0A=C4, C6, C8 to manipulate the RNG from C2.0400 to C8.xxxx.
    • Given the value of RNG as C8.xxxx, wofrandomtable3.txt reveals the sequence of puzzles that the routine tries, in a standard/bonus round, before taking the first available puzzle from the last number given.
    • Given the value of RNG as C8.xxxx, wofrandomtable4.txt reveals the sequence of puzzles that the routine tries, in a speed-up round, before taking the first available puzzle from the last number given.
There were other program files and tables involved when I figured out how to use 2P input to manipulate the speed-up round, but it is probably too confusing to include them. They pretty much work on the same idea as the above programs and tables anyway.

Thanks

Thanks to PikachuMan, MESHUGGAH, and everyone else in the discussion thread for the previous Wheel of Fortune submission.
Nach: Judging.
FractalFusion: Cancelling this submission as explained in the latter half of this post.

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Posted: 1/16/2014 2:34 AM
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Noxxa
They/Them
Moderator, Expert player (4138)
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands
Exotic platforms TASer of 2018 Exotic platforms TAS of 2018 Exotic platforms TASer of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TAS of 2017 Exotic platforms TASer of 2016 Exotic platforms TAS of 2016 Gameboy TASer of 2013
jlun2 wrote:
I guess it should be at least reworded to allow them in a case-by-case submission so that runs like the current Monopoly run would have a chance of being improved rather than stuck with only a faster TAS being mentioned in the movie description.
Note that these rules only apply to Vault. Monopoly is currently in Moons.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Posted: 1/16/2014 7:29 AM
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True
Editor, Player (68)
Joined: 1/18/2008
Posts: 663
I'm not so sure If want to verify this... :( Maybe I should finally make that boot memory cleaner I was talking about? Anyone have a spare game genie I can rip apart?
true on twitch - lsnes windows builds 20230425 - the date this site is buried
Posted: 1/16/2014 8:36 AM
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FractalFusion
Editor, Skilled player (1938)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3246
Glitchy TAS of 2013 Gameboy TAS of 2013 PSX TASer of 2010
Radiant wrote:
That's a good point actually. Could someone please explain why there is a rule that "a board game, sports game, or game show game" is not eligible for the vault?
I think the reasoning a long time ago for putting that rule is because of the fear of TASVideos being flooded with these types of submissions. I'm all for rewording the rule to allow for more games, but I'm not sure how to do that right now.
True wrote:
Maybe I should finally make that boot memory cleaner I was talking about? Anyone have a spare game genie I can rip apart?
How long does the most recent RAM state persist in memory after the NES is shut off? Is it feasible to use a custom NES cart to write what you want in memory, and then turn it off, quickly switch to the cart of the game whose TAS you want to verify, and verify it? I don't know if this has been answered before.
Posted: 1/16/2014 8:39 AM
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Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Starts from a savestate and a reset, rather than from powerup. Is there actually something to discuss here?
Posted: 1/16/2014 8:43 AM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1141)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
Hmm... If one did the following: - Take the movie file, and remove savestate and reset from it. - Load the modified movie, pausing immediately (frame 0). - Run a lua script to poke the memory locations listed. - Continue execution. Would it sync then?
Posted: 1/16/2014 3:15 PM
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Omnigamer
Player (33)
Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 282
FractalFusion wrote:
Some questions require the locking of other questions to occur. For example, question 818 (TOOTSIE) in the bonus round requires locking all questions 800-817 (and a few others). Without that, question 818 cannot be called up. The routines that the game uses are at http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/NES/WheelOfFortune.html . Anyway, this TAS was intended as a demonstration of how fast Wheel of Fortune can be completed from a reset (allowing for whatever you want beforehand as a set-up; I don't know if this tactic has been used by speedrunners in other games, since they are obviously so used to pressing the reset button).
To the best of my knowledge, there are a few precedents used in real-time runs for other things. I believe it's Sly 2 has a bug that allows a New Game file 1 to "inherit" the skills abilities from a completed/nearly completed file 2. There's a general rule for submissions that anything required to set up a run, even if it's otherwise from "New Game," is included in the timing for the run. Which is to say such glitches are effectively banned since setting up the clone saves or otherwise are unlikely to be faster than just doing a run from New Game alone.
How long does the most recent RAM state persist in memory after the NES is shut off? Is it feasible to use a custom NES cart to write what you want in memory, and then turn it off, quickly switch to the cart of the game whose TAS you want to verify, and verify it?
I can't speak for NES personally, but SNES RAM states persist long enough to swap carts in and out of the system. I've observed on the order of minutes before specific addresses are cleared. feasel does runs of Final Fantasy where he expects a certain RNG on initial boot, and he often has to wait 10s of minutes between attempts for it to reset. Case: SNES Hagane does not initialize addresses for initial RNG seed on boot-up. -RNG can be manipulated in real-time according to a 0000 seed. It is obvious when the seed is not as expected. -The seed addresses are changed at some points during gameplay, but usually are zeroed before long. Resets (and power-offs) occasionally keep an alternate state. -Swapping between a US cart and JP cart preserved the same non-zero RNG state in both games. Solution: Swap in a non-Hagane cart that clears the memory, then switch back. Most carts I used would work fine for this, but I used Radical Rex or Skyblazer most often. In the reverse, it is theoretically possible to find a game that initializes RAM to how you expect it and then swap games. Finding an exact match is pretty unlikely, though.
Posted: 1/20/2014 1:54 PM
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Tub
Joined: 6/25/2005
Posts: 1377
Zarmakuizz wrote:
Radiant wrote:
Most games start by zero'ing all the RAM that they actually need, before they use it; some games omit that step. We had a lengthy debate about that just a month ago.
It's in the Cheetamen II run thread.
Thanks! After finishing up on that thread, I maintain my no vote. TASes in their purest form are about pressing buttons on a console to get results. My opinion has always been that we should stick to the purest form whenever possible. My opinion is also that any and all rules must be broken if it results in something awesome. Abusing a 1 in 32 random chance to show off additional levels in cheetamen might qualify. We know it's possible on a real console (there are youtube videos), we could even console verify the TAS with a bit of patience if only someone had the cart. And using the hardware glitch can show off something that couldn't be shown otherwise. Here, we have a 1 in 21000 chance[1], which is about 1 in 10301. Remembering that the amount of events our universe produced so far is lower than 10250 events [2] this isn't just claiming luck, it's breaking physics. It will never ever be console verifyable. Is the result awesome enough to justify such breakage? Well, it looks like another movie that was rejected on entertainment grounds, just with shorter words. Audience reaction hasn't been too positive, either. So I remain with my assessment that the solution is interesting, but the video terribly boring and the tas unsuitable for publication.[3]
NitroGenesis wrote:
I voted no because Fractal keeps wasting his talent on shitty games.
I must wholeheartedly agree with this :) [1] actually, the chance is way lower or even non-existant according to AnS's post. [2] Multiply the age of the universe in planck time with the cubed length of the observable universe in planck length to get a very rough upper bound for a very rough definition of "event". [3] and you know that my assessment is correct, because it has footnotes. ;)
m00
Posted: 1/20/2014 7:32 PM
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FractalFusion
Editor, Skilled player (1938)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3246
Glitchy TAS of 2013 Gameboy TAS of 2013 PSX TASer of 2010
Ilari wrote:
Hmm... If one did the following: - Take the movie file, and remove savestate and reset from it. - Load the modified movie, pausing immediately (frame 0). - Run a lua script to poke the memory locations listed. - Continue execution. Would it sync then?
I checked, and it syncs. For reference, the Lua script I used is here: http://pastebin.com/EaJ0iwtf
True wrote:
I'm not so sure If want to verify this... :(
True, have you given any more consideration towards trying to verify this (either directly from power-on, which probably won't work unless you fudge the RAM using a custom cart beforehand as in my previous post, or using the reset method detailed in my submission text, which theoretically works on any NES power-on state)?
Posted: 1/20/2014 11:35 PM
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ais523
Editor, Player (44)
Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 1022
I'm still opposed to the use of arbitrary initial RAM states, because they move so much of the manipulation time required before the run starts, thus allowing the runner to achieve a bunch of input to the game which they didn't have to spend input for. This is not an ideal example, but it helps to make the point.
Posted: 1/20/2014 11:42 PM
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jlun2
Skilled player (1706)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
GBA TASer of 2010
ais523 wrote:
I'm still opposed to the use of arbitrary initial RAM states, because they move so much of the manipulation time required before the run starts, thus allowing the runner to achieve a bunch of input to the game which they didn't have to spend input for. This is not an ideal example, but it helps to make the point.
I'm just wondering why using the default NES emulator's RAM state is considered ok, despite also being arbitrary. :P
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 1/21/2014 12:05 AM
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Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
jlun2 wrote:
I'm just wondering why using the default NES emulator's RAM state is considered ok, despite also being arbitrary. :P
At least it's the same for everybody and could just as well be random...
Posted: 1/21/2014 2:29 AM
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henke37
Editor
Joined: 3/10/2010
Posts: 899
Location: Sweden
The default state is considered ok because it's an obvious nothing up my sleeve number. It is obvious that it wasn't selected for the purpose of cheating in a TAS.
Posted: 1/21/2014 2:32 AM
Quote
jlun2
Skilled player (1706)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
GBA TASer of 2010
henke37 wrote:
The default state is considered ok because it's an obvious nothing up my sleeve number. It is obvious that it wasn't selected for the purpose of cheating in a TAS.
It would be kinda funny if the default state just so happens to make a game's RNG optimal as opposed to other states. :P Also, you make it sound like if a TASer were to deliberately select something else that manipulates RNG (like system Time), it would be cheating. >.>
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 1/21/2014 2:34 AM
Quote
henke37
Editor
Joined: 3/10/2010
Posts: 899
Location: Sweden
Manipulating RNG entropy is one thing. Trying to pass of several hours of preparation as unimportant unranked time is another.
Posted: 1/21/2014 4:19 AM
Quote
True
Editor, Player (68)
Joined: 1/18/2008
Posts: 663
FractalFusion wrote:
True wrote:
I'm not so sure If want to verify this... :(
True, have you given any more consideration towards trying to verify this (either directly from power-on, which probably won't work unless you fudge the RAM using a custom cart beforehand as in my previous post, or using the reset method detailed in my submission text, which theoretically works on any NES power-on state)?
With the RAM addresses, yes, I might do the cart method, but I need a cart to use. I am unfamiliar with how mappers work at power on and don't care to do anything with it which is why I would like an NROM board to do these with. What do you mean by the "reset method?" If it involves playback of the movies, I really don't have the time for that... though testing if those work would also be a good thing to do...
true on twitch - lsnes windows builds 20230425 - the date this site is buried
Posted: 1/21/2014 9:51 AM
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FractalFusion
Editor, Skilled player (1938)
Joined: 6/15/2005
Posts: 3246
Glitchy TAS of 2013 Gameboy TAS of 2013 PSX TASer of 2010
jlun2 wrote:
I'm just wondering why using the default NES emulator's RAM state is considered ok, despite also being arbitrary. :P
Because that's the way it is. A particular RAM initialization (say, 00000000FFFFFFFF repeating) must be designated as the "official emulator power-on state" or else we would have endless pedantic arguments about what is valid and how to compare TASes (not that it stops us anyway). The result is that whatever the emulator declares the RAM should be at power-on is declared unquestionably "pure", and all deviations are "cheating". It is the emulator's edict, so just accept it. (The fact that RTC can be set in VBA, and firmware settings can be set in DeSmuME, and not be considered cheating, are irrelevant.) Previous threads with discussion on this issue: http://tasvideos.org/forum/t/14564 , http://tasvideos.org/forum/t/14531
True wrote:
FractalFusion wrote:
True wrote:
I'm not so sure If want to verify this... :(
True, have you given any more consideration towards trying to verify this (either directly from power-on, which probably won't work unless you fudge the RAM using a custom cart beforehand as in my previous post, or using the reset method detailed in my submission text, which theoretically works on any NES power-on state)?
With the RAM addresses, yes, I might do the cart method, but I need a cart to use. I am unfamiliar with how mappers work at power on and don't care to do anything with it which is why I would like an NROM board to do these with. What do you mean by the "reset method?" If it involves playback of the movies, I really don't have the time for that... though testing if those work would also be a good thing to do...
Thanks for your response True. Don't worry about it too much. This submission isn't going to be accepted anyway unless rules are changed. Since this submission has pretty much run its course, I will cancel it. Anyone who wishes to look at console verification is still welcome.
Posted: 1/21/2014 9:53 AM
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TASVideosGrue
They/Them
Joined: 10/1/2008
Posts: 2738
Location: The dark corners of the TASVideos server
om, nom, nom... minty!
Posted: 1/21/2014 12:36 PM
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Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
If we had a "concept demo" section, this could perhaps be published there. (Although by my own words, the qualification standards ought to be pretty high to get there, so I don't know if this would qualify for that reason...)
Posted: 1/21/2014 2:44 PM
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jlun2
Skilled player (1706)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
GBA TASer of 2010
FractalFusion wrote:
Because that's the way it is. A particular RAM initialization (say, 00000000FFFFFFFF repeating) must be designated as the "official emulator power-on state" or else we would have endless pedantic arguments about what is valid and how to compare TASes (not that it stops us anyway). The result is that whatever the emulator declares the RAM should be at power-on is declared unquestionably "pure", and all deviations are "cheating". It is the emulator's edict, so just accept it.
So.....basically the person/group/whatever coding the emulator decided what state it should start on, which indirectly causes this argument about "purity" to occur. I wonder if other groups/people can make their own emulators with the "official emulator power-on state" having TASing in mind....
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 1/21/2014 3:40 PM
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Radiant
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
Thankfully, the majority of games initialize their RAM before reading it, and for these games it's actually irrelevant what the initial RAM state of the emulator is.
Indie game developer
Posted: 1/21/2014 3:43 PM
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adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3585)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4738
Location: Tennessee
TASer of 2010 NES TASer of 2010 DS TASer of 2010 Arcade TAS of 2010 NES TASer of 2008 NES TAS of 2008 Funny TAS of 2008 TASer of 2007 NES TASer of 2007 Funny TAS of 2007
I personally support the notion of a TAS being able to control the initial (and arbitrary) ram state. And I be willing to support the notion in BizHawk and convert this movie into a movie that does not need to start from savestate. At that point the only criteria that keeps it out of the vault is the Game show rule. And that rule was written to be conservative at first. Given the amount of complexity of this run, maybe at that point it would be worth seriously considering it.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
Posted: 1/21/2014 3:46 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
I personally reject the notion of a TAS being able to start from any arbitrary RAM state. The RAM state must be one of the possible RAM start up states possible, not some arbitrary combination which would be impossible given the circuitry's details.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 1/21/2014 3:56 PM
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natt
Editor, Emulator Coder, Site Developer
Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 1108
Location: Murka
I always thought of the power on state used by RAM in various emulators as a sort of nothing up my sleeve situation. It's most likely true that the NES can assume any value for any single bit in RAM on powerup. It's also most likely true that the probabilities for each bit are not a simple 50% and not even independent (as a lot of '1' or '0' bits in a single row will change the overall electrical situation of that row). I know there is at least one example of a game that will not boot with FCEUX's initial ram state, will boot with an alternate initial ram state, and usually boots correctly on a real console. I agree that a '1' in 1000 bits of ram as a startup state is much more unlikely than the latch requirements in Cheetahmen II.
Posted: 1/21/2014 3:59 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11267
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
Radiant wrote:
Thankfully, the majority of games initialize their RAM before reading it, and for these games it's actually irrelevant what the initial RAM state of the emulator is.
Post #358364
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 1/21/2014 4:00 PM
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Nach
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
natt wrote:
It's most likely true that the NES can assume any value for any single bit in RAM on powerup. It's also most likely true that the probabilities for each bit are not a simple 50% and not even independent (as a lot of '1' or '0' bits in a single row will change the overall electrical situation of that row).
You're not taking into account propagation. Post #357625
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
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