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p4wn3r wrote:
One thing I would like to see included in the version differences rules is the scenario where the PAL version, which is usually released later, might include additional gameplay than the NTSC one.
This is already covered in the rules update: "If there are significant in-game differences between different versions of a game, movies which take advantage of such differences can be published side by side"
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Sorry we didn't get to this sooner.
We've recently clarified our stance on extracted games. If you extract an N64 game from a Wii download, and it's a new valid N64 game, you can TAS it with an N64 emulator.
If the Virtual Console method is the only way to play the game, because whatever you can extract isn't actually valid for whatever system and depends on Virtual Console hacks, you can TAS the game in the Virtual Console.
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Over the past week and a half or so, our seniors Mothrayas, feos, fsvgm777, and some other staff discussed with me the ambiguity or non-clarity certain rules had.
Some points we covered:
What do we allow in-game passwords or codes to do in a movie?
What qualifies as an in-game code or password?
How are such things branched?
How do we view different versions of a game when they have significant differences?
If they don't what does it mean for improvements?
Where do emulator differences fit in?
Some updates regarding what we want Judges to do in general.
To this end we added language to our rules clarifying what the rules are for these various cases, according to how we've been handling them till now. If you weren't sure about some of these, please see these updates:
Wiki: MovieRules (changes)
Wiki: JudgeGuidelines (changes)
It is important to note that while these changes do make minor alterations to the pre-existing rules, we for the most part have been handling things recently more in line with the updates anyway. These changes are due to feedback of our viewers in recent discussions, and the greater clarity we've had refining many edge cases through many difficult judgments, where we used the spirit of the earlier rules to deduce how to handle the cases that are now clarified.
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Well something like "all 100%" is kind of silly.
But "all X something'' style, I think makes sense.
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feos wrote:
My point is, when using percentages, you know it's full completion as long as it's 100% (or more). But with those "iconic" labels, why isn't "all" enough?
"All exits" is enough for random Joe.
Something iconic like "96 exits" is enough for SMW expert.
"All 96 exits" is enough for random Joe and also informative for the SMW expert, and may be especially helpful if new knowledge later on somehow makes 97 exits sensible as a goal.
Also to put it differently, I don't see any downsides to something like "All 96 exits".
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Yes it can. And the original rejection doesn't entirely make sense to me either.
Edit: Unrejected and claimed.
Audience, please give this run a watch and let me know your feelings.
Link to video
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MESHUGGAH wrote:
Nach wrote:
Also, to unlock a character to play the game with, to play special levels, or play the game in some unusual way.
I've asked something similar earlier: Unlocking a "powerful" character through a code is not allowed if it's a consequence (reward) of finishing the game. Here's Mothrayas' comment on my question from here:Mothrayas wrote:
In other words, using codes or passwords is acceptable but only to unlock a new difficulty or unlock new areas. It is not acceptable to use passwords for upgrading characters, unlocking new characters, or anything else other than aforementioned.
If the unlock in question is only to make the difficulty easier or skip levels, it's forbidden.
Other upgrading unlocks are forbidden for a main branch. For alternate branches, unlocking some special character can be acceptable if the audience would find such a run entertaining in its own right. Although such a run is obsoleted if someone does a kind of 100% run which includes the content this unlocking would otherwise show of.
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I would add to what Mothrayas is saying that if the two versions have some different content, I would ask on the game forums if the audience finds the different content significant. If they do, TAS both of them.
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We recently did some overhauling to rule pages. A partial summary of that overhaul is mentioned here.
I'd appreciate if translators can try to bring the improvements to the translated pages.
Edit: Another partial summary is mentioned here.
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Alyosha wrote:
The published run takes the blue route, but it's faster to take the red route. Curiously, the 100% run on speedrun.com also makes this mistake.
On first glance, the blue route actually looks more direct and shorter. I think that's why both make that mistake. The faux 3D aspect distorts the length vs. width difference.
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It doesn't matter how you win as long as you win. -Rachel, the only true TASer of the group.
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Regarding codes or passwords, I just want to add that using a such a thing to make the game harder or change the music is legal. Also, to unlock a character to play the game with, to play special levels, or play the game in some unusual way. However, most of these latter situations would be considered its own kind of branch.
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If it has an ending, then it's not an endless game.
Many games allow you to continue after the ending. Donkey Kong, Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Land...
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For most versions of Space Invaders to my knowledge, no level introduces new content.
As long as difficulty increases, it has to be played, unless one of the other completion criteria is possible and chosen. Do not confuse this with the case where difficulty resets at some point.
The TASer should do the necessary research to determine when difficulty stops increasing.
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Over the past month or so, our seniors Mothrayas, feos, fsvgm777, and some other staff discussed with me the ambiguity or non-clarity certain rules had.
Some points we covered:
What is considered obtaining something when aiming for collection completion criteria?
What is the criteria for completing an endless games? Or a game which eventually crashes or similar?
How are games within games viewed in terms of completion?
Can a game be extracted from another game and be played that way?
How does obsoletion work for some of these?
What should judges make notes of when judging these?
How is vault affected by this?
To this end we added language to our rules clarifying what the rules are for these various cases, according to how we've been handling them till now. If you weren't sure about some of these, please see these updates:
Wiki: MovieRules (changes)
Wiki: JudgeGuidelines (changes)
Wiki: Vault (changes)
It is important to note that none of these changes substantially alter any of the pre-existing rules. We have been handling the newly identified cases the same way as presently described till now. One exception is that the expanded endless game rules now covers some cases that we haven't actually received submissions for yet, but the elaboration is in line with how we intended to handle them based on similar rules elsewhere.
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<Nach> Mothrayas: it's kind of weird that two stories in a row end with the victim turning into Spaghetti
<Nach> Masterjun's origin story was better
<MemoryTAS> is this a trend
<Nach> MemoryTAS: we'll have to wait and see
<Nach> there's no telling when the third great tool-assisted spaghetti story will take place
<TASVideoAgent> New reply by RGamma (OT: Memorable IRC Quotes.): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/469132#469132 [a:1]
<Nach> and as you said, with great pasta comes great spaghetti
<MemoryTAS> Actually I said sauce, but pasta works better
<RGamma> Nach: Wait, what was Masterjun's origin story then?
<RGamma> Did he evolve a spaghetti defense system or a spaghetti-fueled organism?
<MemoryTAS> http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=468945#468945
<Nach> RGamma: it's amazing how you couldn't see the post before yours
<RGamma> Nach: Wait what? You did this with someone else?
<RGamma> Nach: And he also turns into spaghetti?
<MemoryTAS> it's in IRC Quotes that I just linked
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Warp wrote:
Nobody writes like this, with the person being present, unless they are mocking, condescending, or deliberately taunting.
That's a false trichotomy, based on the assumption of malicious intent.
Take a moment to see things from feos' perspective. He posted a neutral venn diagram to show the relationship between various sets. You immediately jumped on it nitpicking assuming malicious intent, which the rest of our members are also reading. The style he wrote in is common to those trying to defends themselves to the larger audience.
He rightly pointed out that you rushed to blast his diagram without taking a moment to reflect on what it was depicting, and said he posted it maliciously. You're correct that the style of his large post there is not the kind normally used in one on one discussion, however it would be the style that would be used if feos is trying to defend his actions to the larger audience.
Now I do agree that his rigorous defense went a bit overboard, and I asked him both here and privately to reign it in a bit. Please however stop assuming people are out to get you. I cannot speak for feos, but I'm not out to get you. I like you very much.
I'd like it if we can move on without anyone trying to play the victim or persecution card. We're all here because we love TASs whatever that may mean to you personally. I believe we all want what's best for the site. Please, let us try to put aside our differences and focus on what we do agree on.
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feos wrote:
By believing in that, Warp shows that for him it is theoretically possible to measure:
...
I'm not disagreeing with your overall premise, but I think that this remark is a bit too harsh. To me it was clear looking at your graphic which includes many things not published here that it doesn't focus on what's published here. However, it's possible when focusing on some part of it to miss the big picture. Obviously what you're suggesting is ridiculous, but I don't think you need to spell it out to this extent. For this part of your post, I'd understand why Warp would get defensive, since the response is overly pedantic and protracted.
feos wrote:
The fact that such predictions happen to be accurate means that Warp is predictable, lacks common sense, lacks understanding of the English language, lacks understanding of the topic at hand, and uses to cheat in arguments where logic is supposed to be used.
As dwangoAC said earlier, let's not assume why someone said something they did, and attribute bad faith. We're not mind readers.feos wrote:
By posting such a conclusion Warp admits that he believes that feos is capable of manipulating the objective reality of the universe in order to influence Warp's way of making posts.
I think Warp is rather suggesting that people are deliberately posting things to trip him up. His conclusion to me isn't saying you're manipulating the "reality of the universe" but rather a kind of cruel psychology crafted specifically to annoy him.
However, let us keep in mind what dwangoAC said earlier which I just mentioned a moment ago.
feos wrote:
By stating things like this Warp once again demonstrates that he believes that objective reality is under heavy manipulative pressure from feos, with a simple goal of "taunting/mocking" Warp. If one can be "taunted/mocked" by a Venn diagram that describes objective reality and has zero relation to personal issues, then it is a dangerous situation where one can also be mocked by a table or taunted by a pudding.
Again while not disagreeing with your premise, since we unfortunately live in a world today where people are getting offended by math and other things. I still think this post went a bit too overboard, and if he complained about this post in particular, I'd agree with him. Let's try to reign it in a bit.
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Warp wrote:
'll take that as a concession that you chose those two areas in the picture deliberately to be misleading
As I wrote on IRC when feos first posted it, there is no way to draw it with size realism:
<Nach> there's no way to guage the true size of anything because it's up to what people make which can change at any time
<Nach> so you're just describing the idea, and the ratios are not important
Also, bear in mind his image it not limited to TASVideos. I doubt superplay is such a large subset of play in reality, but there's no actual way to know what people are doing behind closed doors.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
interactive fiction style runs
Most of these cannot be published for legal reasons.
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<TASVideoAgent> New reply by Nach (The original Spaghetti post): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/468939#468939 [a:1]
<Mothrayas> Nach: I would watch Tool-Assisted Spaghetti movies if it involved tying people up
<Nach> Mothrayas: me too!
<Mothrayas> let's found a new TASVideos for this purpose
<TASVideoAgent> New reply by Evil_3D (The really get the ball rolling Spaghetti post): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/468941#468941 [a:1]
* Nach ultra-pets Evil_3D
* Evil_3D ultra-purrs_3D
<Mothrayas> 3D purring technology
<Nach> Mothrayas: so, who are we going to tie up first in our crazy Spaghetti Kitchen?
<Mothrayas> Nach: I vote Masterjun
<Nach> okay
<Masterjun> this doesn't sound good
<Nach> Masterjun: you've been selected into our diabolical automatic kitchen to be tied up by a 3D evil Spaghetti machine
<Mothrayas> in 3D !!
<Nach> Mothrayas: Yes, in 3D!!!
<Nach> Things don't look good for Masterjun. Will he survive?
<Masterjun> do things look 3D for Masterjun as well?
<Mothrayas> Masterjun: yes, but it's virtual boy 3D
<Nach> oh noes Masterjun legs are tied up by all that Spaghetti, whatever will he do?
<Masterjun> Nach: nooo
<Nach> oh noes, now his arms are pinned down too! Will Masterjun be able to flex correctly in order to chew his way out?
<Mothrayas> Masterjun: flex!
<Nach> nobody throw Masterjun a super mushroom
* Masterjun spawns super mushroom out of reserve box by pressing select
<Nach> The spaghetti tightens
<Nach> will Masterjun reach the super mushroom before he's shredded?
<Nach> hooray, Masterjun got the super mushroom
<Nach> Masterjun grows large and bursts through most but not all the Spaghetti holding him down
<Mothrayas> there's spaghetti everywhere!
<Nach> indeed!
<Nach> two new robots arrive to begin applying Spaghetti really fast to extra large Masterjun, but one of them trips over all the Spaghetti on the floor
<Mothrayas> nooo, the spaghetti-bot!
<Mothrayas> what an ironic way to go
<Nach> the spaghetti bot after spinning around like mad for a moment goes all 3D, and appears right next to Masterjun and begins helping the other two to apply Spaghetti too
<Nach> It looks like all hope for Masterjun may be lost
<Nach> What's this? A wild Warp appears over Masterjun, and throws a feather at him, before disappearing back into a 3D portal
<Nach> Masterjun now grows a cape right out of his shoulders
<Masterjun> neat
<Nach> what will Masterjun do?
<Masterjun> spin to win
<Nach> Masterjun spins super quickly pulling all the Spaghetti into himself and becomes a giant Spaghetti monster in his own right!
<Nach> Giant Spaghetti monster Masterjun stomps his way past the robots and makes it safely out of the kitchen!
<Mothrayas> I'd worship it
<Nach> Giant Spaghetti monster Masterjun attracts a large crowd of worshipers and lives happily ever after. The end.
<Nach> "The End" has a giant blue smiley next to it
<Masterjun> :D
<Mothrayas> I like this story
<Mothrayas> 8/10 would read again
<Nach> thanks!
<Nach> Special thanks: Warp, Evil_3D, Mothrayas
<Mothrayas> special thanks to our producers for providing all the spaghetti we needed
<Masterjun> man, what a plot twist
<Nach> didn't see that one coming
<Masterjun> the Warp gate
<Evil_3D> We have to talk to dwangoAC about the new Spaghetti block at GDQ... or KDQ?
<Mothrayas> dwangoAC: we may need to look into bringing industrial amounts of spaghetti to the SGDQ TAS block
<TASVideoAgent> New reply by Nach (OT: Memorable IRC Quotes.): http://tasvideos.org/forum/p/468945#468945 [a:1] (The true origin story of the TASVideos Spaghetti Monster)
* Evil_3D hyper... purrs!
<Mothrayas> good kitty! :D
* Nach grins at Evil_3D with a blue face :D
<Nach> Mothrayas: you can now read it again, in all its cleaned up glory
<Mothrayas> Nach: great, now our spaghetti adventures are recorded in history forever
<Nach> Mothrayas: horray!
<Masterjun> I feel honored but also abused
<Mothrayas> just remember, it was for a good cause
<Nach> Masterjun: overall, it was a fairly good story made up on the spot and changing wildly as it went along
<Nach> short too, the kind of story you can tell your grandkids without them getting bored
<Mothrayas> it's also a good origin story
<Nach> Way better than Spiderman
<MemoryTAS> With great sauce comes great spaghetti
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Warp wrote:
I really can't understand why you are so obsessed in maintaining that the meaning of the "S" is that particular word, and has always been, as if it literally were a matter of honor.
You're asking this of me, yet to try to correct someone nearly every time they say it means Superplay? Why are you doing this again and again? I'm not the one who started derailing the CT thread with this side argument.
Warp wrote:
As if it meaning "speedrun" was somehow shameful and dishonorable, and any such claim an insult, as if it were some kind of degrading derogatory term used to denigrate the site.
Because it kind of is. As Bisqwit wrote, speed is just a mechanism for conveying entertainment, speed is not the goal. If all we cared about was speed, we can post the record, ensure someone verified it, and be done with it. Why even watch the movie?
When speed is elevated to a matter of importance, it also becomes exclusionary towards playarounds and time for entertainment tradeoffs. That's not what the site is about, despite what you and others may want it to be about.
Warp wrote:
And the funny thing is that the vast majority of people out there know it as "tool-assisted speedrun". It's only a portion of people in this forum who are adamant in that it must mean "superplay" (some of them quite fanatically at that).
The forum itself is adamant about it, which you can see in the upper left logo.
Warp wrote:
But it seems that the "it means superplay I can't hear you lalalala" crowd is still strong to this day. As if it were a matter of extreme importance.
What the site is about is extremely important for the site. If TASVideos meant Tool-Assisted Spaghetti Videos, then we'd be publishing cooking movies, perhaps being made by all kinds of crazy gadgets. Or perhaps tying people up with Spaghetti.
As is our mission statement is regarding Superplays, not speed runs, even though speed largely contributes in most cases. It's always been like that, and when the name was officially decided to be TASVideos, it was selected based on it meaning Tool-Assisted Superplay Videos. You can "lalalala I cannot hear you all day long", it doesn't change what the site has been about nor what acronym the site was ultimately been renamed to.
dwangoAC wrote:
It's clear to me that there are two discussions running in parallel, one about the nature of what the S in TASVideos meant then and means now
What it meant then and now inside the name "TASVideos" has always been the same.
Warp's contention as far as I can tell is that "TAS" existed outside of the name "TASVideos" prior to it with a different meaning, and we took advantage of that for marketing purposes, which I 100% accept.
My problem here is that I don't understand why Warp is not grasping the distinction regarding "TAS" in isolation from the name "TASVideos". If you can explain it somehow better than me, I'd appreciate it.
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach, you can be direct and your words can hurt whether you intend them to or not.
I know, this is a fact of life.
dwangoAC wrote:
Nach, when Warp says he's feeling hurt, he's probably telling the truth and continuing to throw repeated evidence at him probably isn't helping.
I believe that Warp is telling the truth, and not just trying to manipulate me and others. I never even doubted it.
I am trying to zealously defend our site and ensure it remains committed to Superplays as it always has been. I don't know how to do that without the repeated evidence. If you can assist in explaining this better than I can, I would appreciate it.
The key point in why this is important: Speedruns are a subset of Superplays, and we want to keep publishing the entire superset.
(Edit: grammar fixes)
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You're repeating the same thing again, which is not what TASVideos' name means. When TAS was accepted as the name for the site, it was accepted being based on "tool-assisted superplay".
I already laid out the time line for TASVideos' name here, which agrees with what you're saying but still disproves your premise.
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