I always understood that to mean different game versions, where later versions might tweak some weapons, move some enemies around, change the resolution, and so on.
If we're talking about the exact same game version, but played in different platforms that may somehow alter the way the exact same game is ran, that rule/guideline doesn't exactly cover it.
You can argue that we should extrapolate based on that to how it's ran as well, but I'm not certain we should, otherwise I think we also have to allow emulator bugs to be utilized, even in emulators we make and approve of.
Please ponder the situation, because I don't think it's anywhere near as clear cut to start allowing the newer platforms with the exact same game.
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feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
It's not that we know better. I'm sure Nintendo is aware of most of these bugs as well, and they just don't care about preserving the original game play. It's about the fact we are able to differentiate between the game itself, and other software. We know when a bug is part of the game itself or not.
Once again you're making it sound like publishing 2 different runs that look differently, on 2 different platforms, is completely impossible, unacceptable, bad for the site, and obviously wrong.
Why is it wrong when we publish a run which uses an emulator bug from one of our emulators?
And before you jump to answer that, bear in mind that some companies are reselling their old console games as PC games, making use of some of our emulators, bugs and all.
feos wrote:
Also:
feos wrote:
Why exactly banning one of the options (the one where the resulting gameplay looks different enough) makes things better?
Exact same as above. Should we be publishing the results of relying on emulator bugs?
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feos wrote:
If they've introduced different bugs when preparing that release, why should we decide "no it's not a legitimate environment, don't trust the official publisher, we know better"?
If they introduced the bug directly into the game itself, I'd say the bug is legitimate, go ahead and use it.
But if the bug is a result of the software used to run the game as part of that release, then I'd say it isn't legitimate.
It's not that we know better. I'm sure Nintendo is aware of most of these bugs as well, and they just don't care about preserving the original game play. It's about the fact we are able to differentiate between the game itself, and other software. We know when a bug is part of the game itself or not.
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feos wrote:
Your point is that the new release is not a part of the game anymore. Which is quite arbitrary to decide for the publisher of that game, based on which of their publications we like or not.
It's not about whether we like it or not, it's about whether it's the original, or they did something to get it to run on something else.
Again, we're intelligent enough to know when this happens. It's not confusing and arbitrary.
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Yes, it's an official release. But it's an official derivative release in a buggier form. If we can extract and play it in its original platform, I think that's what we should do.
That same "unique gameplay" might even be possible in emulators that we non-Nintendo employees make, but we reject those because it's not true to the original. Sure these new Wii emulators are officially sanctioned by Nintendo's greed, but they're still not true to the original game. We're intelligent enough to differentiate a pure game release, and a game release that's really supposed to be for a different platform.
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Yes, and I also am thinking along the same lines as Chanoyu is.
feos wrote:
Identical gameplay would obviously be too similar to have both versions.
I'd say even very similar gameplay.
feos wrote:
Version exclusive glitches or anything else that makes the VC release special, would be okay.
If the glitches are the result of the VC's internal emulator and isn't present when extracted, placed on a flash cart, and ran on the original system, I'm not sure we should accept them.
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feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
So we plan for many games to just duplicate publish the exact same thing because we can relabel it Wii? Unless there's some significant in-game distinction, I don't see the point in us allowing this.
It's explained in the rule I linked.
I wrote the rule you linked. I don't see how it covers allowing the emulated version being played on the Wii.
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feos wrote:
No one is saying that they compete for the same platform. VC is Wii, and if TASed in Dolphin it's published as a Wii movie, with whatever is special about that new bundle. An extracted game though, if TASed on its original platform emulator (the rules use N64 as an example), is published as an N64 movie.
So we plan for many games to just duplicate publish the exact same thing because we can relabel it Wii? Unless there's some significant in-game distinction, I don't see the point in us allowing this.
feos wrote:
So if the hardware and software background behind default SGB colors is essentially the same as CGB, are there SGB specific problems comparable to CGB with the same (or different) games?
CGB has more issues not just because of the color thing, but because of other changes.
The SGB is essentially a DMG on an SNES game cart, with the I/O fed into the game cart, and its own extra software for controlling that and added features.
The CGB uses different hardware for some of its components which will lead to all kinds of in-game differences. As I said previously, for most games, the differences won't really be noticeable, but there are differences.
For games where the differences really jump out at you, such as garbled graphics and sound, I think we pretty much all agree to play the game in DMG mode. But that's not my concern, my concern is the legitimacy where it's subtle. I personally won't trust a CGB run of a DMG game which does something which seems odd, unless proven otherwise.
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Are we talking publications or submissions?
I was thinking of runs made with lsnes, perhaps they were never published, or were just userfiles.
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
lsnes has better SGB emulation, and even then it's still fairly outdated and misses out on a ton of emulation updates from upstream.
Back when I was assisting Ilari and some others with some of this on lsnes, we had some basic runs verified on a real SNES+SGB. Not saying it's perfect, but it seemed to handle some games just fine.
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Also, the rules at its current moment are kinda guaranteeing DMG will obsolete SGB, as SGB enhancements add a ton of lag to a game and easily allows DMG to beat SGB in framecount.
The rules as they always have been focuses on game play. If we can attribute certain specific things to the platform itself, it can be ignored for the comparison. But in any case, that's missing the point, my point as it's been from the beginning is that running games on a platform it's not designed for has differences, and these differences should not necessarily be considered legitimate.
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feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
We're doing that now?
We're not banning VC relases, and I'm pretty sure we shouldn't. So the logical result is Post #472277
That seems awful to me. We're going to obsolete original games on their original platform because there's a poor emulator that makes it run faster?
feos wrote:
Have any SGB TASes on the site made use of this SGB-only functionality, current or obsoleted? I mean manually editing colors or drawing on the screen.
Those features, not that I know of. But SGB games have other improvements like better sound via the SNES. I think we may have had a run or two which did that, but I could be mistaken. Donkey Kong on an SGB has the game adjusting the color throughout, and AFAIK, does this better than a CGB, and has better sound, it baffles me the game was submitted using CGB.
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
If the game itself was designed for SGB it usually looks good. Although we had a discussion several years back where we noticed some SGB games were designed for the television aspect ratio, and other SGB games were designed for the DMG aspect ratio. It seems some companies/studios/teams preferred things one way, and others another. So playing it on the correct system you'd get perfect squares and circles and the other would give you rectangles and ovals.
This isn't addresses in the rules, and it feels uneasy to try to guess developer's intent.
If there's some original version of the game that exists on the original platform, then we know the developer originally designed it for the original platform. The later VC release may modify some menus to refer to the console it's now playing on, or it's in a language previously unreleased, maybe it includes additional levels cut from the original due to ROM cost constraints, and so on, but unless they put in other patches specific for the emulator it's running on, it clearly was designed for the original platform.
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feos wrote:
That sounds a bit like VC releases of old consoles being TASed in Dolphin. Nintendo shipped an emulator inside the VC game bundle, and we're free to abuse bugs in that emulator, as it's part of the game now.
I find this to actually be the preferable way to play it, assuming it wasn't designed specifically for the quirks of Nintendo's emulator.
feos wrote:
Also now I have to ask if SGB also has any oddities in how it interprets things and assigns colors.
It includes similar logic to what the CGB includes to auto color games, but it also has extensive controls to edit the palette while the game is running. SGB even allows you to draw on the screen, like your own map, or hide the boss you're fighting, or other stuff.
If the game itself was designed for SGB it usually looks good. Although we had a discussion several years back where we noticed some SGB games were designed for the television aspect ratio, and other SGB games were designed for the DMG aspect ratio. It seems some companies/studios/teams preferred things one way, and others another. So playing it on the correct system you'd get perfect squares and circles and the other would give you rectangles and ovals.
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feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
The CGB firmware includes a list of somewhat popular DMG games to auto set their palette.
It's Nintendo who's made that boot ROM, right? Sounds like they officially support those games in the "simple color mode", even if it's not 100% bugless.
Nintendo made it yes, and they support them to an extent. All the Donkey Kong Land games have various bugs, yet they also have some coloring in that boot ROM. I also mentioned previously that I strongly suspect that the various black cartridge rereleases were made to fix some bugs on CGB, and still some of those games have their original release also appear in the boot ROM. The boot ROM itself also has its oddities, like it includes a palette for the E versions of Mega Man I, II, and III, but not the other regions which are nearly identical games. A lot of Nintendo's decisions here are just weird.
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
In some games though, if you don't manually select anything, it will indeed not look sensible. And as I said before, since it auto colors sprites different from background, in games where it was intended to blend together, that blend is now broken.
Does this happen with explicitly supported GB games too?
Yes. Zelda which was mentioned previously has a maze with enemies masquerading among statues, which blends perfectly on DMG, but not CGB, and also appears in the boot ROM, and also got a black cartridge rerelease.
Personally, I just don't find the CGB to be accurate enough for games designed for the DMG/SGB. It might look nice, but it's often not the way the original game was intended. As I said previously, I don't mind if we put coloring in our encodes as long as it's sensible, but I don't think it's the mode the games should be played in.
If one wants to verify runs, you just need to mod the input to accept it from elsewhere. If you look on eBay, there's tons of Gameboy modding hardware that's being sold. You can find videos on YT of people showing off the various mods.
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feos wrote:
I have a different question. For GB games that are supposedly not supported explicitly by GBC, it still somehow assigns colors in a meaningful way, it's not an utterly random mess. How is this determined on the hardware level? It's not full-color like actual GBC games are, but still looks sensible. Are there also GB games that have completely wrong colors assigned in the GBC mode?
The CGB firmware includes a list of somewhat popular DMG games to auto set their palette. Aside from this, on boot, you can hold down a key combination to select a palette. One key combination is just black+white which should look fine anywhere, and you can play with the others to see if they look okay.
In some games though, if you don't manually select anything, it will indeed not look sensible. And as I said before, since it auto colors sprites different from background, in games where it was intended to blend together, that blend is now broken.
Edit: See this: https://tcrf.net/Notes:Game_Boy_Color_Bootstrap_ROM
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Nice, thank you.
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DrD2k9 wrote:
Going right with the wind actually has a relative large window in which a standard jump will cross the spikes (9 frame window for both sets of spikes).
I find there being a large window for the jumps here shocking. I've tried it many times, I could not do it. I had a friend call me up asking how to beat this level, how does he make the jump with the key? He couldn't make the jump either despite a lot of effort.
But if you're sure it's just a matter of precision, and it's fully legitimate, then fine, I accept.
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EZGames69 wrote:
Are you claiming this is an emulation inaccuracy?
I don't trust the run because it's running in CGB mode. I'm not claiming anything about it, all I know is that DMG games on CGB is inherently unreliable unless proven otherwise.
If I saw this same feat on DMG mode I'd assume it was due to DrD2k9's awesomeness.
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Memory wrote:
Those jumps are absolutely possible on DMG and the fact that it's a TAS means you might have trouble doing them real time.
The jumps that were bothering me took place in 6-6.
I see DrD2k9 taking the most direct and obvious route possible, which I tried many times and could never accomplish. I had to come up with a different and less obvious solution. It's possible it requires frame precision to get the jump just right. But it seems impossible to me that the spikes can just be jumped with the key. I don't know that they're possible on a DMG, but I'd be happy if I was proven to be wrong about that.
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feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
But is it a legitimate demand?
I see the demand mostly coming from people who are probably younger than a DMG, they probably never played these games on a DMG, they don't get how it subtly different.
It's coming from a variety of active contributors, and from having asked other staff members and people in chats, I haven't seen a single opinion against this demand.
To me based on most responses it seems people were largely unaware of the platform differences. Since they're unaware of the differences, I wouldn't expect them to have an opinion against. If you think they're identical, why should you be against it?
feos wrote:
The age of our contributors is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
The only relevance it has is that older contributors are more likely to be aware of the differences.
feos wrote:
The relevant part is that we agree to sacrifice accuracy, for example if it breaks determinism. Emulation is imperfect, so people just deal with subtle differences in some games.
Unlike some other systems though, the Gameboy and most of its successors is self contained, hence the Gameboy is more deterministic versus consoles that can be connected to a wide array of different televisions or get different pulse signals via the electric from your wall. It's in the exact opposite direction from the free-for-all that the PC platform is. Gameboy games are much less likely to see differences in play when using the same kind of model.
feos wrote:
Also, the obvious difference I'm noticing is we don't encode GB in shades of green. That's not authentic. Why is it encoded as shades of grey?
The Gameboy does not output anything in green. Its output is 4 shades of black/grey. The background of the Gameboy's screen is green, instead of white. What we're encoding as white is the transparent (non drawn) sections of the screen, which is on a white background.
And if you want to encode games using a different color for the background and each of the 4 shades, I really don't care, as long as the encode looks good. Encoding colors doesn't affect the game-play at all.
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
Yet I don't see how that's a reasonable reason to use a platform the game was not originally designed for in our TASs.
I explicitly said it's not the reason to avoid GB TASing, and you keep treating it like it's a reason I mentioned. It was an explanation why it's widespread in RTA.
I'm sorry for misunderstanding your point.
feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
Unlike elsewhere, we place high stock on original legitimacy, at least we did till now. We know things aren't perfect, but haven't we always preferred playing things in the most accurate and legitimate fashion?
Sure. Also, at the top of Judge Guidelines we say:
Satisfy the audience's expectations.
Which means we should be hearing people out, checking if they have a point, and whether it's possible to update our approach without causing any harm. It's the kind of balance we should be aiming for.
It would be nice, but all I'm seeing in this thread is ridiculous attacks, and people who didn't even want to review information I provided, or finding every excuse under the sun to not believe that differences exist between platforms. If people cannot have a discussion in good faith, I don't even know what to make of anyone's expectations. How are we supposed to discuss to what extent we care about these kinds of differences, when most people here deny their existence?
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Nach wrote:
at least we did till now
So why is this an issue now and not 2 and a half years ago.
It's an issue regardless of when it started. The pages have the current rules, I don't know why judges just up and decided to ignore the rules.
I only noticed this now because I was searching our GB/SGB list for Mega Man games and this game vanished from it, and I was confused. If I would've noticed this earlier, I would've mentioned it earlier. I don't recall any of the judges coming to me saying they'd like to start breaking the rules here.
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feos wrote:
I'm not saying the demand is in the RTA community (CGB is already used there), the demand is right here at tasvideos, as you can see in this thread.
But is it a legitimate demand?
I see the demand mostly coming from people who are probably younger than a DMG, they probably never played these games on a DMG, they don't get how it subtly different.
feos wrote:
I'm not saying we don't want to TAS GB because its hard to capture, I'm saying it's already common outside tasvideos because of that.
Yet I don't see how that's a reasonable reason to use a platform the game was not originally designed for in our TASs. Unlike elsewhere, we place high stock on original legitimacy, at least we did till now. We know things aren't perfect, but haven't we always preferred playing things in the most accurate and legitimate fashion?
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Invariel wrote:
Like feos, I haven't looked at your list either, so I don't know whether the games being called out in this thread are on that list or not. However, I am certain that you would have pointed to issues with these games if they were listed there.
I purposely did not mention anything specifically in this thread that is specifically in the other thread so as not to duplicate information. I highly recommend reading the other thread. Ideally it'd be nice if someone compiled a list of them.
Invariel wrote:
As to the statement about boss fights feeling different on CGB than DMG, my initial skepticism asks, "Is that because you are more familiar with the fight now," but it's also possible that the fights are easier because they are different.
I'm not skeptical about it because I know the platforms are different and there's even good well known reasons for the difference like Alyosha mentioned:
Alyosha wrote:
There are many variations in GBC from GB, and many variations amongst different models and from GBA, even just the fact that the GBC BIOS takes less time to run dramatically changes RNG in games that don't reset the timer (ex pokemon) all other things being equal.
Invariel wrote:
The actual question I will raise is, "Does that matter in the context of a TAS?"
It really depends what you consider important. If a boss uses different movement patterns on one generation of console versus another generation of console, do we care?
Invariel wrote:
And, more broadly, if we assume that the emulation we use (mostly) accurately emulates the system the game is being played on, does it actually matter?
That is indeed why I raised this issue. Do we care that the SGB, CGB, or AGB plays games designed for the earlier platform consistently in a different fashion? From a purist standpoint, I believe it does.
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feos wrote:
The problem is that these days there's very high demand for the GBC mode on GB games, and basically everyone involved in human speedrunning of this platform has been using GBC mode of some variation, because original GB is very hard to capture.
Since when has TASVideos kowtowed to how some other site handled things? TASVideos has also never been about how easy or difficult it is to capture something.
The nature of most early devices are going to be hard to capture, unless you directly wire them up to something. It is possibly to modify the original Gameboy to do stuff with it, and there actually is a large community now around modifying Gameboys and adding on all sorts of new features to them or swapping out various components.
feos wrote:
On the other hand, if those glitches are severe indeed, we don't want to compromise the environment.
Our rules as they have been and are still today ensures we don't compromise the environment. You play the game on the system or systems it was originally designed for. This ensures that the game play and anything it encounters is legitimate (assuming no bug there in the emulator).
feos wrote:
I admit I haven't checked the links though.
I highly recommend reading the entirety of the three page thread I linked to.
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Invariel wrote:
You've made nebulous statements about "some games" that other people have agreed with, but you have not provided any concrete evidence of any specific games having these issues.
I don't have a specific list of games that have issues. If I did I would share it.
I found a thread from a few years back which I linked earlier which mentions a few games with issues. There they talk about some major problems as well as more minor problems. There are specific games mentioned there as well as some specific problems.
Invariel wrote:
You've stated that years ago you saw "flickering issues" with "a Zelda game", but without pointing to the video in question.
If I still had the video, I would gladly share it. I can share my recollection of issues that I recall, but being ganged up like this, I'm really not inclined to mention anything because it'll just be followed up with oh, you must be some pathological liar, please prove every single point of every word you say.
Invariel wrote:
Nobody is denying that these issues exist, but again the question is whether issues exist in the games that have been published in not-original-GameBoy-mode.
It sounds an awful lot like people are denying that issues exist.
The thread I linked to has numerous people giving examples of such issues if you want some source other me.
My concern here is that there is no comprehensive definitive list of all the issues and to what extent they may affect game-play. Personally, I really don't care much if we publish a run that had one spot that looked a bit off, or it missed a bit of sound somewhere (games where the sound turns into static or constant buzzing is a different issue). What I do care about is it changing game-play in more subtle ways. Over the years people told me that some boss fights in a game felt different on a CGB than on a DMG, and it's these kinds of issues I'm concerned about. Potentially the amount of games affected in this fashion might be larger than games where there's more obvious problems with them. I don't know what you want me to show you here, and a video of some flickering or buzzing sounds is not going to magically prove it to you.
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A very small number of older games may not function properly on the Game Boy Color, Game Boy Advance, or Game Boy Advance SP. Common symptoms include scrambled images, missing graphics, or sound problems.
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
So you are blaming flickering on a really old recording on it (apparently) being on GBC mode instead of perhaps just inaccurate emulation? Or even just a really shitty recording?
I'm telling you what I saw, I've blamed CGB mode because I didn't see the same issues on DX in CGB mode or the original in DMG mode in emulators I've tested. Maybe it was due to some emulation issue, but my first thought is otherwise because I'm not blind to CGBs having issues. I have quite an extensive collection of DMG games and played them with relatives and friends who also had large collections. When the CGB came out, my friends were telling me how they noticed this random issue or that random issue with different games. It's why I personally never bought a CGB myself. My DMG plays my games well, and I wasn't interested in a newer system which had the occasional issue.
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Hell it could of been some god damn compression artifact from someone turning up the compression to extremely high levels.
Being that I work with video, I generally recognize compression artifacts when I see them.
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Memory wrote:
Link or it didn't happen.
I find it amazing that I seem to be the only one that is aware of some DMG games not playing perfectly well on later Gameboy editions.
It's not like I collected every piece of information or video I ever came across to save it for just this moment. Especially for something which was common knowledge at the time among Gameboy fans.
I already linked you to Nintendo saying some games have issues, and a thread talking about a non-exhaustive list of issues various people there were discussing.
If you want to make believe none of these problems exist, because I cannot offhand show you every single individual issue in detail, then so be it, live in ignorance.
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