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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Nach wrote:
I myself noticed in a Zelda encode flickering that shouldn't be there. But that's the more noticeable sort of thing.
Which Zelda encode are you specifically talking about?
Something which I saw years back.
There was flickering all over the place in the game which I never saw on my DMG.
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
The only DMG Zelda game I'm aware of is Link's Awakening
Correct.
CasualPokePlayer wrote:
so I'm guessing some random TAS on Youtube?
I saw this before there was a YouTube or TASs.
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feos wrote:
It would be much easier to discuss this if we had examples of games obviously glitching out on GBC, to easily understand how broken it may be.
You can see some of that in the link I posted earlier.
I myself noticed in a Zelda encode flickering that shouldn't be there. But that's the more noticeable sort of thing.
The CPU computation in a CGB is supposed to be the same as a DMG, the place where they differ is in the sound and video generation components. For a game that doesn't try to read that back, it should in theory play exactly the same, minus audio or visual differences. However if the game does read it back, or use it as part of timing, which in turn feeds into an RNG or for other computations, the game play is different. I've heard stories how bosses suddenly became much easier or harder. This is where the differences can be subtle.
There's another element also that in a way seems like cheating. The DMG only had 4 colors or so to choose from. Some games would hide enemies or breakable areas in the background/wall/floor, and you wouldn't notice it unless they attacked you, or you attacked it, as they blended together. When a CGB plays a DMG game, it automatically uses more than 4 colors, and purposely uses different colors for what is truly background and what is a sprite. Suddenly all those enemies or breakable areas (sprites) that were hiding suddenly stand out (from the background), and what it supposed to be a surprise is readily obvious. You can see enemies in advance that are supposed to ambush, you can know where to strike without any guess work. It dumbs down various games in certain areas.
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CasualPokePlayer wrote:
Also, DMG emulation not really at the state CGB (and CGB in GBA) emulation is at, since most focus has been on the CGB (in GBA).
Why are you saying this?
My understanding from Sinamas was that he runs his hardware tests on both a DMG and a CGB.
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TiKevin83 wrote:
Nobody in any RTA speedrunning community would question the legitimacy of tricks in a run that plays back on the Game Boy Player as it's the standard for most GB/GBC RTA speedrunning
So?
TiKevin83 wrote:
and in actuality Donkey Kong '94's console verification helped prove some prior tricks to be the result of emulation inaccuracy.
Maybe it proves the Game Boy Player isn't true to the original and the DMG/SGB emulator was accurate?
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Mothrayas wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, Game Boy, Game Boy Color, Game Boy Advance etc. are all official platforms and I fail to see the problem with making use of them in scenarios like this. The only reason this could be in contention is if there are demonstrable and/or visible issues with the game's functioning on GBC and/or GBA.
They're all official platforms yes, but the games were not necessarily designed with a later platform in mind. A later platform might introduce a bug not present in the original. Would exploiting that bug be legal?
Do you think it's fair to run a DOS game design for an 80s PC on a modern PC? The platform is just as official.
What about using something like this: https://www.analogue.co/pocket
It also has support for HDMI out and USB in, so it can be good for capturing on hardware designed for the games.
Mothrayas wrote:
Most examples refer to game being obviously broken in GBA, fail to boot, etc. Obviously, if there are major emulation issues that prevent a game from being ran, we can't even consider running it in GBA mode. For other games, we can still see if there are demonstrable visible or audible issues and reject them on that basis - that doesn't mean we should need to abandon the concept entirely.
The examples aren't really relevant. The point is that the various systems do not play the games identically to the original platform they were designed for. Some of the issues are obvious because of the extent is messes up the game, but then there's subtle ones also.
Mothrayas wrote:
If there are no demonstrable emulation issues, preventing console verification (itself a pinnacle aspect of emulation accuracy) because it might hypothetically be very slightly different seems absurd. We're running the game on official hardware, that's designed to support it, it works, and the game looks to function as it would on the hardware it was originally designed for.
You're looking at this from the perspective that the console was designed to support these games (which it does most of the time). I'm looking at it from the perspective as to what the game itself was designed for. The later console tries to make it function like the original, but it may stray from that.
As is, I'm already seeing some flickering issues with some graphics in certain encodes, and I'm left wondering if certain TAS feats I'm seeing are now actually possible on the original, or if it's due to a slight difference for the CGB that is allowing it. I watched Donkey Kong earlier, and I saw some jumps which I've tried dozens of times and could never make them nearly as far, and suddenly it's looking like Mario is able to jump farther. Maybe those moves are possible under certain circumstances and I didn't try hard enough, but my first thought was it's a system difference. I don't know if we want to put out movies where you have to start questioning its legitimacy because of the console used.
Mothrayas wrote:
Regarding labeling, I agree games that are originally for GB should be labeled as GB. This isn't even running on GBC, the settings have the core pretend it's a GBA running a GB game. But this is an entirely different problem, one that can both be easily resolved manually, and the movie file parser can be patched to resolve movies like this being read as GBC instead of GB.
I agree on this point and something we should handle, because searching for some stuff earlier I couldn't even find what I want. I thought this game somehow vanished at first.
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A very small number of older games may not function properly on the Game Boy Color, Game Boy Advance, or Game Boy Advance SP. Common symptoms include scrambled images, missing graphics, or sound problems.
They do not provide a comprehensive list.
They made the Gameboy Color have backwards compatibility so it can launch with a large set of available games, this does not mean it runs them all accurately. The backwards compatibility is supposed to work most of the time, but the DMG/SGB games were not designed for this.
I've heard that the reason for the various black cartridge rereleases was to put out "fixed" versions of those games because they had various issues on a Gameboy Color. I've specifically heard the Arcade Classics games had sound issues, and certain gameplay changed slightly.
Even for the games that seem to run fine, it doesn't mean it's true to the original, and may have subtle differences.
Edit:
See this thread here, they discuss various issues they know about with certain games on the various Gameboy variants: https://forum.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?151903-Problem-gameboy-games-on-Advance
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feos wrote:
Nach wrote:
It does not explain how a judge allowed this to be published this way.
What do you think of the idea then? I think it would be a good reason to allow that mode.
I don't think it's a good reason to allow this mode.
Further it's miscategorizing the platform a game exists on. Also various DMG games have broken/missing sound on CGB. I don't see this to be a correct direction to be moving things.
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feos wrote:
Does it answer your question though?
It does not explain how a judge allowed this to be published this way.
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That's a nice discussion and all, but running in the wrong mode is a violation of the current rules.
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If Game Boy Color's full-color graphics are not supported, but Super Game Boy enhancements are available in the game (i.e. borders, dynamic palette changes, and/or other exclusive features within the game), then either Game Boy mode or Super Game Boy mode can be used.
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If neither Super Game Boy enhancements nor Game Boy Color's full-color graphics are supported, Game Boy mode should be used.
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Warp wrote:
The "notability" in this case would be that it's very different as a viewing experience compared to the previous one, because of the different route.
That's the only point the tag is meant to convey.
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Memory wrote:
How do you use it?
If I see the run has the flag, and I'm interested in the game, I add it to my list of things to watch. Otherwise I typically don't.
EZGames69 wrote:
Nach wrote:
This tag should be used when major changes have been made to how the game is played compared to a previous run. Which is not necessarily obvious just by looking at how much time was saved.
how do you determine that? because there's plenty of runs on this site that save major time but dont have the tag on it.
We can place it on runs that save a large % of the time, but there, notable changes are typically implied. One exception would be is if a run find a way to just skip a bunch of levels, in which case it's a large drop, but there's barely not changes at all in the rest of the movie and would be identical to the previous.
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Yes, I find this tag useful.
This tag should be used when major changes have been made to how the game is played compared to a previous run. Which is not necessarily obvious just by looking at how much time was saved.
Slightly better optimizations to a few areas should not get the tag, as it's basically the same movie. Completely new route through the game should get the tag.
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Samsara wrote:
Having watched the run several times by now, I'm inclined to agree: Game boring. (quietly googles which belmont this is) Christopher moves very slowly
Come on man, it was in the first response in this thread.
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Samsara: I speak as someone who played this game when I was young. This game was incredibly difficult.
Beating this game normally requires excelling at two points:
1) Learning the best places where to stand to effectively let the enemies spawn and come to you to get killed. (Trying to move towards them to kill them is generally a bad idea, as they have much better maneuverability than you do.)
2) Learning the jumping mechanics, because jumping in this game requires precision and is difficult to do under pressure.
Knowing all these enemies are supposed to appear, it's like watching arukAdo killing them before they're on screen. And he's doing so without needing to stop and wait in certain spots.
Seeing jumping without hesitation, and even reckless on the ropes is quite a site to behold.
For someone not familiar with the game, I concede that the run is probably fairly boring. But at least to me, I see arukAdo killing enemies faster than any other TAS, and the game is played really well. I find it quite entertaining.
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Great improvement. You made this difficult game look like one of the easiest pushovers ever. Strong yes vote.
I greatly enjoyed the Christopher Belmont workout:
12000 steps: Check.
Climbs 20 flights of stairs: Check.
Climbs 20 ropes to ceiling: Check.
Jumps 30 chasms: Check.
20 sets of rope swinging: Check.
Good workout music: 3/4 stages.
Now let's do some push-ups.
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Really nice job arukAdo.
arukAdo wrote:
At this point im not sure if its worth to work further on grey, that just depend if grey and color can co-exist in the vault.
The games are practically identical, so I'm not sure it makes sense to publish both side by side.
Regarding vault, let me share with you a nice concept. Watch the playback at double the speed. Either set your emulator to 2x, or YouTube player, or mpv (press ']'), and suddenly it runs at the same speed as a normal Castlevania game. For an ~8 minute run which looks like an obstacle course with the occasional enemy, played to perfection, it's actually decently entertaining.
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scrimpeh wrote:
And we got a stair glitch.
Only very few seem to be really be useful. Most just lead you to another room with a glitched camera position where no stairs work. Others lead to glitched worlds entirely. I've had both freezes and resets to stage 1 (PRG0).
Great work!
It looks like it works here because this room is directly above the other room, and has connecting stairs elsewhere between them. So essentially still entering the same room, just at a different point.
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Hi Mazzin,
If it's hard for you to explain something with a video, you don't always have to use a video.
You can take screenshots of a place in the game, and draw on it with paintbrush (MS Paint), indicating certain things and describing improvements.
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Mazzin wrote:
i was actually refering to my submission file with this.
in a way i always feel insulted whenever someone posts a "new" file that even includes mistakes that i tried to avoid in my run and i even tried to explain some of them in my maxed out videos description and my subtitles...
so don't tell me i play the big mystery card here, i basically showed most of my knowledge already, but im also glad if someone wants to hear more.
and to name some examples, this is what bugs me the most and it's not even a TAS related fact, only basic game knowledge that could easily be obtained just by casually playing the game, it's no secret at all, which makes it even more outrageous for me:
You're right that people should learn from what you submit so future work can benefit from improvements you make. Although you need to describe what those improvements are.
Mazzin wrote:
the very first candle of the game has to be destroyed!
because this candle triggers another additional candle to spawn in the next screen, the second last that contains a 1UP.
and while it technically doesn't matter too much to leave the first candle (it's even better because of less lag caused by the whip action), if you leave it you will have to deal with additional lag from the the other candle that you purposedly spawn.
and the 1UP candle that spawns isn't just a similar case than the one at the start, because the location is right next to a rope that you will have to climb up.
and since climbing is super slow you will spend a lot of time on that screen before you can get out of sight from the candle, which in return means it does NOT save time to leave this candle there while you climb the rope.
so by leaving the first candle alone and seemingly saving the action of whipping it, only causes you to be forced to still use a whip move on the second candle, so even if both actions were equally time consuming (which they aren't, since the location favours the first candle over the 1UP candle), you would still have half of a screen movement more lag before you can even reach the 1UP candle to destroy it... so no matter what, spawning that candle only costs time in my eyes.
unless someone can proof me wrong with a detailed explanation that convinces me that i missed something...
the same problem goes for level 3 and level 4 as well. (at least level 2 was somewhat fixed in the last video here).
in level 3 you have to destroy the 3rd candle of the level to not spawn the first one in the horizontal scrolling section with a crystal ball in it (which i explicitly explained in my video, so idk why people point at me from all sides, but whatever...).
and in level 4 im not super duper sure if it could somehow be worth to ignore it, but i think unspawning any object sounds like a good idea...
at the start of level 4 you have to destroy the last candle of the low ground section where the knights are, that candle contains a heart and if you leave it, it spawns the second candle in the next screen which contains a blinking heart.
(but guess what, i explained that candle spawn too in my video...)
This is terrific info! Thank you for sharing it!
This kind of thing typically goes into submission notes so people know how you improved a run and can learn from it. The only thing I got out of this run's submission notes is that you made decent use of a pause glitch.
Mazzin wrote:
why is every time such a drama here, i just wanted to enrich your lifes with my work, but instead i kinda feel like i did something wrong when i made my run :(
You did nothing wrong by making your run. I for one appreciate it.
Mazzin wrote:
sorry if i did, my only intention was to push the game further than ever before...
The more you elaborate on important things you did is helpful so we can learn from it. Generally people aren't going to know about it otherwise. Unless you tell them to notice something, they probably won't.
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So I finally got the mouse and had the chance to use it a bit, after the post office somehow lost it for a week.
So far, I'm finding it to be terrific.
It fits my large hands nicely.
Nice weight.
I am able to wrap my hands around it comfortably.
The wheel is terrific. Scrolling is great, clicking is easy and doesn't sound like a gunshot like some other wheels.
I can use it with either hand quite easily, even though it's clearly molded for right handed use.
I don't know yet how long it will last long term, but other than that, it hit every requirement on my list.
Only thing weird about it is that it's also reporting itself as a keyboard:
usb 3-1: new full-speed USB device number 73 using xhci_hcd
usb 3-1: New USB device found, idVendor=045e, idProduct=082a, bcdDevice= 0.95
usb 3-1: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=0
usb 3-1: Product: Microsoft Pro Intellimouse
usb 3-1: Manufacturer: Microsoft
input: Microsoft Microsoft Pro Intellimouse Mouse as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:07.1/0000:0a:00.3/usb3/3-1/3-1:1.0/0003:045E:082A.005A/input/input41
hid-generic 0003:045E:082A.005A: input,hiddev2,hidraw0: USB HID v1.11 Mouse [Microsoft Microsoft Pro Intellimouse] on usb-0000:0a:00.3-1/input0
input: Microsoft Microsoft Pro Intellimouse Keyboard as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:07.1/0000:0a:00.3/usb3/3-1/3-1:1.1/0003:045E:082A.005B/input/input42
input: Microsoft Microsoft Pro Intellimouse Consumer Control as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:07.1/0000:0a:00.3/usb3/3-1/3-1:1.1/0003:045E:082A.005B/input/input43
input: Microsoft Microsoft Pro Intellimouse as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:07.1/0000:0a:00.3/usb3/3-1/3-1:1.1/0003:045E:082A.005B/input/input44
input: Microsoft Microsoft Pro Intellimouse as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:07.1/0000:0a:00.3/usb3/3-1/3-1:1.1/0003:045E:082A.005B/input/input45
hid-generic 0003:045E:082A.005B: input,hiddev3,hidraw6: USB HID v1.11 Keyboard [Microsoft Microsoft Pro Intellimouse] on usb-0000:0a:00.3-1/input1
I imagine the keyboard may have something to do with buttons 4 and 5 on it. But it works fine.
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Warp wrote:
It appears to be at this moment cheaper at Microsoft's own store ($39.23), and I think they offer free shipping (even internationally).
Looks like you're right, thanks!
I just need to create an account with them for personal use.
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So I just learned about this mouse, and it's on sale: https://amzn.to/2ZAHLHj
I placed my order, so I'll get it whenever Amazon figures out how to ship it.
I got an earlier version of that same mouse some 15 years back, and I used it with one of my computers for ~10 years till the right click started sticking for some reason.
According to reviews, this pro version, is not junk like the rest of the lineup with peeling issues and other poor quality nonsense. I hope that's true.
Since it's currently on sale for under $50, it matches all my criteria (of course once I get my hands on it, I may learn otherwise, but hopefully not). However if you're looking to get the same mouse for the same criteria, just be aware that while it can be used left handed, the shape of it makes it a bit clunky to do so compared to more neutrally shaped mice. However it's nowhere near as difficult as some other right handed mice I've used. At least that was the case with the previous model I had which this is based on, I'll know more when I get my hands on this one.
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Masterjun wrote:
I was just about to edit this part in. Yes indeed it is a bit tougher than other mice. I did not notice this before reading the reviews myself.
I would not say the wheel click is useless and making the mouse a returnable item. I also wouldn't say it's a "relatively herculean task".
But I do say that it's noticeable enough for me to say "Yeah, it's tougher". (But it's not enough for me personally to take a risk and try out a completely new mouse once this one breaks.)
I'm thinking that Logitech perhaps some variance in their design here. Their wheel click in general is harder than other companies, but some of them come off the assembly line where you can barely press it down casually with just a single finger. So you might get one where it's a bit tougher, or one where you need to put your body weight on it.
Obviously people have different amounts of strengths in their fingers, but some reviews make me think they got one where the click is defectively rigid.
I have some pretty strong fingers, and I find clicking the one I have to really require a bit of force. I cannot click it casually.
One thing I'm wondering though if age has anything to do with it. The one I have is fresh out of the box. Maybe after using it for a couple of days it becomes easier to press? And the rigidness is by design because it loosens up with some use.
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